Members ChiroVette Posted September 29, 2013 Members Share Posted September 29, 2013 Okay, I had a very interesting experience a couple of weekends when my band played GratefulFest in Centerport Long Island, with several other Dead cover bands. My old sound man was the guy running the whole production. He had his JRX system (blech!!!) set up over a pair of Behringer subs (which in my opinion are hundred pound paperweights). He did have two tops over the subs (one 15" + horn and 2 15" + horn for a total of three 15's per side) so I supose that helped.Anyway, he was not running the board, this engineer he hired was running the mixer and basically doing all the mixing and band setups. Anyway, even with the JRX gear (which normally sounds horrendous) this guy did an absolutely amazing job on the bands, mine included. I checked out the recording that guy who ran the festival posted, and even though it was on a crappy Zoom unit so it isn't the greatest sound quality, and the video is horrifying. But even with that unit (which is the same one I use, so it's a great benchmark for comparison), I was amazed at how incredible the quality of the mix is compared to anything I have ever heard from my on-stage mix with new gear, which is WAY better than the JRX crap. I have even had some less experienced guys mix with my gear, and nothing comes close, in my opinion, to what this guy was able to do with substandard speakers. Kind of sobering, when you think about it. The only hitch wasn't his fault: My bass player's amp decided to pick that moment to blow a speaker lol, so when he hits anything hard, it sounded like bass farts. Oh and one advantage he told me he had, when we talked a few days later about the show, is that he said that he uses some VERY expensive reverb units and delay units and he puts both delay end verb on the vocals. I forget what he was saying it was, but I believe it was a high end Sony unit (delay) that is no longer available, but he said they go for about $1.5K used, and I want to say that he was using a Lexicon dedicated reverb unit (not multi effects) and that he said that this was justas pricey. But I reall was impressed by the effects on the vocals in particular.Anyway, I made this thread out of respect for all you guys who can basically mix on a transistor radio and blow the doords off of someone like me, even with a good system. It was pretty awesome and intimidating at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted September 29, 2013 Members Share Posted September 29, 2013 Even using very expensive reverb units is not essential.As a test of this, with a national engineer that I know who came through a show that I was providing sound for, I took a DSP that I designed for our acoustic amps that's based on an Alesis DSP engine, put it in a custom rack mount enclosure and asked him to try out 16 sample programs and see if there was anything that he felt he could use, just for informational sake. He ended up using 2 of the programs for the show and was totally satisfied even though the software was the basis of a So many times I hear folks blame the equipment without looking in the mirror and seeing themselves as the limiting factor. I have taken quite a bit of grief here for my opinions on this, but it's the difference between somebody who undertands the art of mixing along with the technology of getting there without creating problems that are oftheir own making. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ChiroVette Posted September 29, 2013 Author Members Share Posted September 29, 2013 I hear you, Andy, and believe me, I am totally open to (and would kilss you on the lips lol) if you can show me how in the hell I can get great reverb and delay sound or point me in the direction of how I can learn without spending thousands of dollars on some reverb and delay units not even made anymore. I am not married to any conclusion other than the fact that I, personally, can't get anything close to what I would call even decent reverb on vocals for any equipment I have ever owned, including (and arguably especially) from the DL1608.So if you tell me there is great reverb and great delay out there that I could avail myself of without breaking the bank, believe me, I am all ears!It's just frustrating to have to leave my vocals almost dry because I have no clue about how to get great sounding (or even decent sounding!) reverb or delay out of my gear. The way the reverb and delay were used by this engineer, I love the sound of the vocals. Makes the harmonies pop and the guy just did an amazing job.Right now, whether it is because of a lack of equipment or an abundance of ignorance, probably at least a little of both, I am not able to get good reverb/delay. Andy, let me ask you this: would you say that the reverb/delay in the DL1608 is pretty much sub standard and regardless of anything else, I should look elsewhere? Or is this something I can play with and get a good sound from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted September 29, 2013 Members Share Posted September 29, 2013 The effects on the mixer are not the issue. You really do need to understand more about how the various effects work, what the parameters mean, and what type of effect is desired to get what you are trying to achieve. I'm pretty good at this but I have worked with some guys who are really practiced in the art of using effects well. I try to learn from these guys where possible. Experience helps in knowing what is not a good idea as much as what might work well, and less is usually more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dookietwo Posted September 29, 2013 Members Share Posted September 29, 2013 Ok, Waiting for you to post the video! Dookietwo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members minn12 Posted September 29, 2013 Members Share Posted September 29, 2013 ChiroVette wrote: Okay, I had a very interesting experience a couple of weekends when my band played GratefulFest in Centerport Long Island, with several other Dead cover bands. My old sound man was the guy running the whole production. He had his JRX system (blech!!!) set up over a pair of Behringer subs (which in my opinion are hundred pound paperweights). He did have two tops over the subs (one 15" + horn and 2 15" + horn for a total of three 15's per side) so I supose that helped. Anyway, he was not running the board, this engineer he hired was running the mixer and basically doing all the mixing and band setups. Anyway, even with the JRX gear (which normally sounds horrendous) this guy did an absolutely amazing job on the bands, mine included. I checked out the recording that guy who ran the festival posted, and even though it was on a crappy Zoom unit so it isn't the greatest sound quality, and the video is horrifying. But even with that unit (which is the same one I use, so it's a great benchmark for comparison), I was amazed at how incredible the quality of the mix is compared to anything I have ever heard from my on-stage mix with new gear, which is WAY better than the JRX crap. This is quite a coincidence, since I had a night off from mixing Saturday night, and went to an outdoor/tent show to hear an 80's tribute band I had never seen before. First thing I noticed was the main PA consisted of dual JBL JRX 2-15" cabs per side, and two mis-matched single-18 subs. The funny thing is, I was very surprised the sound quality of the mix was really good. I had never heard JRX speakers sound even close to that good. Looking around more, I saw the sound guy mixing on an iPad, then I saw he was running a Behringer X32 board side-stage. So even with pretty marginal PA speakers, a good-sounding board and some tech skills, the guy managed to get a pretty good mix happening. I actually walked up close to the PA just to confirm they actually WERE JRX speakers, lol. All in all, a pretty interesting mix of gear for a show to say the least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WynnD Posted September 30, 2013 Members Share Posted September 30, 2013 All this good sound outdoors with mediocre speakers has me wondering, is the volume lower than what you expect from that stuff indoors? (It ought to be.) Follow me here. I still think that most bands are really too loud indoors to enjoy. (Or possibly get a good sound on.) Maybe being outdoors and unwilling to sacrifice the FOH speakers took the sound to a lower level than you would get indoors and a much better sound as a result. When I got to mix a local Reggae band on the west steps of the Colorado Capitol building, it was the first time I got to enjoy listening to them. Wasn't my mixing so much as it was the lack of an assault on my ears. They were soooo good and it was a pleasure to not have to shout or compete with a noisy crowd. (Everyone was listening and enjoying the show.) The place is pretty good for crowds up to but not beyond 2000. (There is traffic about 1/2 block away that is noisy.) I've also had Jonny 5 of the Flobots there a couple of times. I do bring more equipment for bands than I do for just political speeches. But it maxes out about 124 dbc in a tri-amp system. (Pretty flat response 50-18,000 htz. Old school speakers, modern processing. I'm an old guy, it suits my personality. And in that location you really can't make much use of more volume than that. It just becomes mud bouncing off the buildings on the next block.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Art Flood Posted September 30, 2013 Members Share Posted September 30, 2013 ChiroVette wrote: Okay, I had a very interesting experience a couple of weekends when my band played GratefulFest in Centerport Long Island, with several other Dead cover bands. My old sound man was the guy running the whole production. He had his JRX system (blech!!!) set up over a pair of Behringer subs (which in my opinion are hundred pound paperweights). He did have two tops over the subs (one 15" + horn and 2 15" + horn for a total of three 15's per side) so I supose that helped. Anyway, he was not running the board, this engineer he hired was running the mixer and basically doing all the mixing and band setups. Anyway, even with the JRX gear (which normally sounds horrendous) this guy did an absolutely amazing job on the bands, mine included. I checked out the recording that guy who ran the festival posted, and even though it was on a crappy Zoom unit so it isn't the greatest sound quality, and the video is horrifying. But even with that unit (which is the same one I use, so it's a great benchmark for comparison), I was amazed at how incredible the quality of the mix is compared to anything I have ever heard from my on-stage mix with new gear, which is WAY better than the JRX crap. I have even had some less experienced guys mix with my gear, and nothing comes close, in my opinion, to what this guy was able to do with substandard speakers. Kind of sobering, when you think about it. The only hitch wasn't his fault: My bass player's amp decided to pick that moment to blow a speaker lol, so when he hits anything hard, it sounded like bass farts. Oh and one advantage he told me he had, when we talked a few days later about the show, is that he said that he uses some VERY expensive reverb units and delay units and he puts both delay end verb on the vocals. I forget what he was saying it was, but I believe it was a high end Sony unit (delay) that is no longer available, but he said they go for about $1.5K used, and I want to say that he was using a Lexicon dedicated reverb unit (not multi effects) and that he said that this was justas pricey. But I reall was impressed by the effects on the vocals in particular. Anyway, I made this thread out of respect for all you guys who can basically mix on a transistor radio and blow the doords off of someone like me, even with a good system. It was pretty awesome and intimidating at the same time. CV from the clips you've posted in the past I think your band sounds just fine. If I recall, you mix from stage which is always a challenge, but you just make the best of your situation - what else can you do.Unless you do something extreme, like mute the lead vocal or have it distort, I don't think most people can tell the difference between good and great sound. I am pretty sure its not reverb or delay that does it.You are obvioulsy investing a lot of time and money in good sound gear and would be listening with a very critical ear to your own band and to others.I am getting to the point where I do far more mixing than playing - and I am hearing things and adjusting things (such as eq, mic positions) that I never would have done when I was mixing on stage. Now I am sure these things make small improvements but I think I am the only one that really notices it. In my limited experience buying better quality gear makes getting a good sound quicker and easier. The PRX stuff is virtually plug and play!Cheers mate! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Pro Sound Guy Posted September 30, 2013 Members Share Posted September 30, 2013 I twisted knobs for a band that had a pair of the JRX 125 dual 15's /each box had a bridged crown @900wattsrunning them with a Mackie mix out front, and some effects, and GEQ.I did not think those boxes were horrible by any means.I was able to achieve a pretty nice sound for what there was available in a room with some serious RT.Those boxes are not to bad for low budge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mutha Goose Posted September 30, 2013 Members Share Posted September 30, 2013 agedhorse wrote: I'm pretty good at this but I have worked with some guys who are really practiced in the art of using effects well. I try to learn from these guys where possible. Experience helps in knowing what is not a good idea as much as what might work well, and less is usually more. This is the key right here! Learn from people. Listen to other's work... what do you like? what do you not like? Learn about both! Talk to the operator (though if you don't like their outcome, you might do better to keep that opinion to yourself :-) ). Knowing what you don't like can be just as illuminating (or more) than learning about what you do like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ChiroVette Posted October 1, 2013 Author Members Share Posted October 1, 2013 Thanks for the answers, guys, definitely some great advice! And thanks for the kind words, nchangin. Dookietwo wrote: Ok, Waiting for you to post the video! Dookietwo lol Here ya go. By the way, the issues with the bass sound are not the sound man's fault, but a problem my bass player had with a blown speaker in his cabinet. Oh and the crowd didn't start gathering until after the first song. lol It was pretty empty during the first tune. :*( Also the band doesn't really warm up until the second song forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.