Members Rumorsband Posted October 6, 2013 Members Share Posted October 6, 2013 I've started a number of threads asking for advice (powered subs /etc). A quick recap: One of my most recent was asking the differences between the 612's and the 710's. I recently sold my single 618 xlf sub and bought 2 x 715 xlf sub and I am very happy with that decision..My next decision was do I keep my 2 x 612's or would the 710's be a better match to the 715 subs. I took a 710 home and did a A/B in the basement. I felt the 710 was crisper but the 612 was fuller (both with and without the sub in use)Well, last night I took the 710's out on a gig where I have played many times and here's what i think ...This is a fairly large room that is pretty deep ...On the dance floor and about 1/2 the room length the system sounded really good.The vocals were as clean and crisp as I've ever heard them, the bottom was nice and tight and all the music was also clean and crisp. At first I was "sold", however when I moved furthur back in the room the fullness wasn't the same as with the 12's. While you could hear us it didn't seem to pack the same punch furthur away you got.While we play to the dance floor is nice to have people at the bar area be able to hear the music more than faintly.I guess I am surprised and don't understand why??? Is it a matter of the size of paper being pushed? Is it just plain normal to expect a 12 to be heard furthur away than a 10 and the sound to be fuller even when using the subs? Based on this less than professional test I feel it is a better idea to keep my 612's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Pro Sound Guy Posted October 6, 2013 Members Share Posted October 6, 2013 You are comparing an apple to an orange.Two different designs.Whatever works well for your application. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rumorsband Posted October 6, 2013 Author Members Share Posted October 6, 2013 could you elaborate? The only reason I looked at the 710's to begin with is because the specs were pretty close to the 612's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members OneEng Posted October 6, 2013 Members Share Posted October 6, 2013 This is what I was talking about when you posted the first thread Specifically ..... The specs .... even SPL and frequency response are largely useless marketing material. This is due to the lack of information in the specs. SPL is gathered by a weighting across the frequency band. Most SPL meters have A and C weighting, and a few can give you just a flat reading with equal frequency contribution across the spectrum. The most frequently used weighting is A. Take a look at it here and you will see why this is not really going to tell you much about how an 8" speaker and a 15" speaker are going to sound in real life: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-weighting "A" weighting is used most often because the predominant use of an SPL meter isn't to measure speaker output, it is to make sure equipment and areas are not damaging your ears! Because of this, the A weighting is based on your ear sensitivity to different frequencies and which frequencies are most often damaging to the human ear ..... which is why the low frequencies and even low mid frequencies are all but absent from the weighting ...... making the reading useless. The frequency bandwidth is useless for another reason. Sure. you can get LF out of a 10" speaker at low volumes, (especially if processed correctly in the speakers DSP), but once the volume goes up, you will find a completely different frequency response .... one where the LF is almost completely absent. So, lets just assume for a moment that I am right here .... and that the 12" speaker can output better LF than the 10" speaker can. When you use them over subs, this difference should dissappear right? Well, I guess I would state that it gets smaller for sure, but no way does it go away .... not to my ears. The PRX715XLF has an internal cross-over set at 90 Hz. That is fairly low for most subs these days (most are 100-120 IME). The 612's are simply able to handle higher SPL in the 90-200Hz region, and this is what is making the audible difference you hear at the back of the room. The reason for this is that LF makes it through a room better than HF does ..... and it is less directional so it fills the room more fluidly than HF does. I would keep those 612's myself The only reason I don't have DSR115's over my PRX618S-XLFs (instead of my DSR112's) is size and weight. I have never tested this configuration, but I suspect that there would be a difference in punch in the 90-200Hz range .... I just don't have the back for this heavy lifting any more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rumorsband Posted October 6, 2013 Author Members Share Posted October 6, 2013 Thank you ... and in all honesty ... I don't know if your answer is right or wrong ...but it sure does make sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members OneEng Posted October 7, 2013 Members Share Posted October 7, 2013 I don't know that I am right either. Like you, I am simply trying to put what I hear up against what I know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted October 7, 2013 Members Share Posted October 7, 2013 You really need to make measurements and compare the two at the same time. Little changes, like a few more people or differences in temperature can make a difference. You also need to calibrate both speakers you are testing so that you are indeed hearing exactly the same level to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rumorsband Posted October 7, 2013 Author Members Share Posted October 7, 2013 maybe ... but who has the equipment to run all these tests? ... I took a set of speakers out to try them on a gig ... plain and simple... I'm keeping the 12's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted October 7, 2013 Members Share Posted October 7, 2013 Silly me, maybe I should upgrade my a system to 12" instead of the current 10" even though it's good enough for national acts? Wow, it's clear that there is still a big disconnect between the pro world and the mi world. Marketing and lack of understanding of the products and tools of the trade hinder real progress IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Tomm Williams Posted October 7, 2013 Members Share Posted October 7, 2013 agedhorse wrote: Silly me, maybe I should upgrade my a system to 12" instead of the current 10" even though it's good enough for national acts? Wow, it's clear that there is still a big disconnect between the pro world and the mi world. Marketing and lack of understanding of the products and tools of the trade hinder real progress IMO. Yes, you should get rid of those silly boxes and send them to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members monthlymixcd Posted October 7, 2013 Members Share Posted October 7, 2013 I think the fact that Andy has a scalable pro system using 10" speakers underscores the fact that the smaller speakers for the midrange more accurately reproduces the source, yes? The difference between pro and MI users (in this example) is that we can't afford to carry enough boxes to adequately reinforce using 10"s... so we compromise and use fewer speakers with larger drivers to push more air. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rumorsband Posted October 7, 2013 Author Members Share Posted October 7, 2013 Early on at the other post I started Andy said both the 710 and the 612 would do the job ... And they do. If you read iniitial post comments I basically support what many are saying. The 10's are cleaner and crisper, but I feel if I take some mids out of the 12's with EQ, I can get them sound pretty much like the 10's. My basic question dealt with the throw of the cabs. Will a 12 throw out farthur than a 10 normally anyway? Is it the cab design that is limiting the 10's throw? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rumorsband Posted October 7, 2013 Author Members Share Posted October 7, 2013 Just wanted to say if Aged Horse is Andy (I think he is anyway) I had no idea he used 10's until today. As I stated above I was never told that 10's would be the better option - I was under the impression that when using the hpf it really wouldn't matter at that point. I do believe the additional mid range I'm hearing from the 12's is adding volume? Fullness? To the 12's. That I don't hear in the 10's which led to my question is 12's would just normally throw more than 10's. I did not alter or touch EQ in either case. Flat all the way when I used both. So while I know I can EQ to trim it - I did not for the trial. And maybe I therefore I got false results.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sibyrnes Posted October 7, 2013 Members Share Posted October 7, 2013 You are over thinking this. Whatever Andy uses has nothing to do with your situation. If you have something that is working, stick with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rumorsband Posted October 7, 2013 Author Members Share Posted October 7, 2013 I fully understand that what Andy is using has nothing to do with me. I made the point to highlight that even though he is using 10's and obviously likes them- he was the first to say that both the 12's and 10's would work equally well. My point is not overthinking at all. They sound different. The 12's seem to throw more and I want to understand why... Not overthinking . Its just. Plain thinking and curious as to why. The question was very very simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sibyrnes Posted October 7, 2013 Members Share Posted October 7, 2013 There is no simple answer and there is no such thing as "throw". If the 12's are louder at distance, it is because they are louder at the source. That's physics and speaker size does not change that. If that's what you want then it sounds like you already have it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members monthlymixcd Posted October 7, 2013 Members Share Posted October 7, 2013 I disagree... and I think OneEng's comment is probably right on the money. OneEng wrote: ... snip...The 612's are simply able to handle higher SPL in the 90-200Hz region, and this is what is making the audible difference you hear at the back of the room. I also wasn't saying that 10" are better than 12" or 15"... and neither was Andy (AH) by using a system w/ 10" drivers... it's just like he always says though... when designed well for a purpose you can use pretty much any size driver. See the FBT Vertus thread for proof. Different strokes for different folks...Personally, I prefer the sound of guitar amps through 10" or 15" speakers... and bass through 12" speakers... and vox and horns through 8" speakers (i.e. a good 3-way PA speaker)... YMMV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rumorsband Posted October 7, 2013 Author Members Share Posted October 7, 2013 Thanks - no such thing as throw??? I stand corrected I guess - is heard better at a distance a better way to ask what probably everybody knew what I was asking? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sibyrnes Posted October 7, 2013 Members Share Posted October 7, 2013 You miss the point. The only reason a speaker is louder at a distance is because it is louder at the source. Look up "inverse distance law" if you want to understand the physics behind it. Your "simple" question compares two speaker systems with different responses, coverage patterns, amplifier, cabinet size, processing, AND speaker size. Pick the one that sounds best to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted October 9, 2013 Members Share Posted October 9, 2013 Speaker size has nothing to do with throw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rumorsband Posted October 9, 2013 Author Members Share Posted October 9, 2013 Could it be the 1 more db the 12 has over the 10? The 12 was louder in the back of the room, that's all I really know for sure.Why - I don't know and as others have said here- really doesn't matter. I was looking for a simple explanation that obviously doesn't exist.I don't have the testing equipment or the desire to get a scientific answer, so I'll save a few hundred and keep the 12's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted October 9, 2013 Members Share Posted October 9, 2013 Keep what you prefer the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rumorsband Posted October 10, 2013 Author Members Share Posted October 10, 2013 Now here's an option I never considered.... suggested by a music store .... run the subwoofers off an aux output... then assign only the channels you want to the subs using the aux ...then run the tops left and right on full range.Comments? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted October 10, 2013 Members Share Posted October 10, 2013 Probably will not help without a real crossover to HP the top cabinets. Could rely make a mess out of things without doing it right. IMO, too many folks recommend things because they sound good without understanding how and why and the important details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rumorsband Posted October 10, 2013 Author Members Share Posted October 10, 2013 I thought it was a stretch myself - but it was an interesting suggestion I hadn't heard before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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