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  • #16
    Sure most apeakers today are direct radiating... that's what ported speakers are.

    They are not "acoustic suspension" or "infinite baffle" if that's what you ment.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Former product development engineer: Genz Benz, a KMC Music/FMIC/JAM Industries Company, continuing factory level product support and service for Genz Benz

    Currently product development engineer: Mesa Boogie

    Comment


    • #17
      Such as?


      ______________________________________
      Cerwin-Vega AB-36C Afterburner 18" Folded Horn Subwoofer Speaker
      Cerwin-Vega TS-42 21" Folded Horn Subwoofer
      Cerwin-Vega EL-36C 18" Folded Horn Subwoofer
      Mackie SWA1501 Active High Output 15-Inch Subwoofer System (uses the floor as a virtual reflective horn)
      EAW LA400 Bent Bass Horn Subwoofer
      Viking Audio B36X 18" folded bass horn subwoofer
      PEAVEY PVDJ DJS-SUB 18-Inch Subwoofer - Folded Horn

      Redacted from an online article
      "A horn loaded speaker can have a sensitivity as high as 110 dB at 2.83 volts (1 watt at 8 ohms) at 1 meter. This is a hundredfold increase in output compared to a speaker rated at 90 dB sensitivity, and is invaluable in applications where high sound levels are required or amplifier power is limited."

      Hence my initial comment about the Peavey SP1 Bottom speaker which we had installed the Electro Voice EVM15's bare speaker, that had a maximum db level of 135db at 300 watts could technically put out 150db out of the horn. Running a "clean" dedicated 400 watts frequency spectrum defined and dedicated power to the low end 200 -2000hz (not sub sonic) (again I said I ran an active x-over tri-amp system) per folded horn was very efficient, very clean and very loud.

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      • #18
        Sure most apeakers today are direct radiating... that's what ported speakers are.

        They are not "acoustic suspension" or "infinite baffle" if that's what you ment.


        Yes you are right, the direct radiating speakers of all uses, high to sub have the majority of the market, probably 95%+ the fine art of making the cabinet enhance the speakers output has dimished greatly. Bose being probably the one of the last holdouts to use the fold in its mainstream designs.

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        • #19


          Redacted from an online article
          "A horn loaded speaker can have a sensitivity as high as 110 dB at 2.83 volts (1 watt at 8 ohms) at 1 meter. This is a hundredfold increase in output compared to a speaker rated at 90 dB sensitivity, and is invaluable in applications where high sound levels are required or amplifier power is limited."

          Hence my initial comment about the Peavey SP1 Bottom speaker which we had installed the Electro Voice EVM15's bare speaker, that had a maximum db level of 135db at 300 watts could technically put out 150db out of the horn. Running a "clean" dedicated 400 watts frequency spectrum defined and dedicated power to the low end 200 -2000hz (not sub sonic) (again I said I ran an active x-over tri-amp system) per folded horn was very efficient, very clean and very loud.


          I think your numbers are so optimistic as to be out of this universe. They are complely unrealistic.

          You are also neglecting the fact that the SP1 low frequency extension was terrible. It's most efficient around 50-70Hz.
          -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          Former product development engineer: Genz Benz, a KMC Music/FMIC/JAM Industries Company, continuing factory level product support and service for Genz Benz

          Currently product development engineer: Mesa Boogie

          Comment


          • #20
            ______________________________________
            Cerwin-Vega AB-36C Afterburner 18" Folded Horn Subwoofer Speaker
            Cerwin-Vega TS-42 21" Folded Horn Subwoofer
            Cerwin-Vega EL-36C 18" Folded Horn Subwoofer
            Mackie SWA1501 Active High Output 15-Inch Subwoofer System (uses the floor as a virtual reflective horn)
            EAW LA400 Bent Bass Horn Subwoofer
            Viking Audio B36X 18" folded bass horn subwoofer
            PEAVEY PVDJ DJS-SUB 18-Inch Subwoofer - Folded Horn


            I thought you wrote, "high end and professional". The EAW example is about the only box in this list that could fit that description.
            "If you don't know where you are going, you might wind up someplace else" - Yogi Berra, 1925-2015

            Comment


            • #21
              I think your numbers are so optimistic as to be out of this universe. They are complely unrealistic.

              You are also neglecting the fact that the SP1 low frequency extension was terrible. It's most efficient around 50-70Hz.


              ___________________________
              speaker facts:
              http://archives.telex.com/archives/EV/Speakers/EDS/EVM-15B%20Pro-line%20EDS.pdf
              I did overstate the speaker its 126.5 db @ 4' 400watts not 135db. range 50-5000 hz according to EV (the amplified sound from the horn was cut and pasted from an article on the web based on sound physics). where did you figure the efficiency range of (40-70 hz?) who the heck would buy a speaker with an efficiency range spread of 20hz ?? that would be insane.oke:

              Comment


              • #22
                ___________________________
                speaker facts:
                http://archives.telex.com/archives/EV/Speakers/EDS/EVM-15B%20Pro-line%20EDS.pdf
                I did overstate the speaker its 126.5 db @ 4' 400watts not 135db. range 50-5000 hz according to EV (the amplified sound from the horn was cut and pasted from an article on the web based on sound physics). where did you figure the efficiency range of (40-70 hz?) who the heck would buy a speaker with an efficiency range spread of 20hz ?? that would be insane.oke:


                In all fairness, do you realize you're trying to argue technical deets with an EE who designs this stuff for a living? Agedhorse has likely forgotten more than either you or I will ever know about the subject.

                The online info you posted has little if anything to do with the SP1 or the EV speaker you're discussing. It's taken out of context and without any way to verify its veracity (a link would help here).

                To clarify the point you seem to be making here, Agedhorse isn't claiming the SP1's response range is only 20Hz wide. Read his post. He was stating that the SP1 is most efficient in that narrow 50-70Hz band. The box (as with most folded horns) is peaky, and response drops off rapidly below and above this relatively narrow band.

                To make a horn cabinet work in a wide band at such low frequencies demands a box even larger than the SP1. The LAB is a design that comes to mind in this regard. They are enormous, and also work best in multiples. Not many people want to or can invest that much space and weight into their rig. When there are so many light(er) speakers readily available, there's little wonder why the giant horns are relegated to museums and oddball DIY sites.

                So while for its time the SP1 was decent if not spectacular, in today's market, a huge box would need to have much better performance than this to be considered viable.
                "If you don't know where you are going, you might wind up someplace else" - Yogi Berra, 1925-2015

                Comment


                • #23
                  ___________________________
                  speaker facts:
                  http://archives.telex.com/archives/EV/Speakers/EDS/EVM-15B%20Pro-line%20EDS.pdf
                  I did overstate the speaker its 126.5 db @ 4' 400watts not 135db. range 50-5000 hz according to EV (the amplified sound from the horn was cut and pasted from an article on the web based on sound physics). where did you figure the efficiency range of (40-70 hz?) who the heck would buy a speaker with an efficiency range spread of 20hz ?? that would be insane.oke:


                  Thanks for completely confirming my observations.

                  The difference between 126.5dB and 135dB is literally out of the universe. That's a power factor difference of 8X... so big that of course it jumped off the page at me because I know what it possible with these products down to some pretty minute details.

                  Your comment about efficiency of the subs confirms my hunch that you really don't have the slightest idea what you are arguing. The efficiency of any speaker is the ratio of Acoustic power (SPL) out to electrical power in. This is different for every point within the frequency spectrum and for folded horns, and that one specifically, there is a hugh tradeoff in the bandwidth (the range of frequencies) and the efficiency. The premise of most folded horns is to trade off the very low frequencies for better efficiencies at a higher frequency. Specifically in the SP-1, the 20-45Hz efficiency it traded off for better efficiency in the 45-100Hz area. Otherwise, the cabinet would get too big and heavy and costly to be practical.
                  -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  Former product development engineer: Genz Benz, a KMC Music/FMIC/JAM Industries Company, continuing factory level product support and service for Genz Benz

                  Currently product development engineer: Mesa Boogie

                  Comment


                  • #24

                    I never actually owned the sp1 but I had the fh1 boxes (the lower 1/2, pretty much a standard w-bin),and i owned a MK 4

                    the MK-4 was the generic club mixer of the 80's, It was OK, wasnt great but you could get decent sound out of it ( saw a lot of tapcos' and biamps- the biamp might actually be worth having). Having said that, a mackie 24. 4 or 1604 sounded better ( it was like pulling a blanket off the mix) and can be had for $300 or less

                    i did use a set of sp-1's a couple of times, I never cared for them, I would go so far to say  terrible, the Fh-1 was OK got loud and made noise but really had to be crossed @ 250 and wasnt a sub, but was fine as part of a 3 way system. 

                    in either case I wouldnt pay more than $100 for the whole kit

                    . It would be a cheap way to get started but the Sp2 and 3 sounded better and I have seen a lot of better kit going for not much money. EV 1502's or 1512's are from the same era actually sound good and can be had for around 300 the pair. Old JBL MR and SR boxes are starting to go for $300 to $500 for the pair.

                    Comment


                    • #25

                      I got a chuckle out of the Klipsch LaScala comparison. The LaScala's weren't designed as a PA speaker. For their day they were a hell of a home/danceclub box. But they weigh in at just over 150 lbs themselves. They did have a 3 (or more) box PA setup available,but it was rediculously expensive compared to a lot of boxes.The LaScala's were also capable of being run with 200 WPC (pro version) and extremely efficient for their day.If I recall correctly they were something like 105db at 1 watt. Of course they may have used magic measurements, by they screamed with minimum power.

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