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Bare-minimum bar band PA/setup...

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  • Bare-minimum bar band PA/setup...

    How simple can a bar band get away with, rehearsed and prepare for it.  Assume all decent/good-quality equipment.

     

    Mixing from stage,

    Passive mixer with on-board FX (no outboard processing),

    All powered speakers-- subs, with fronts and monitors being the same cabs,

    one monitor mix, full mix, same as the fronts,

    disciplined musicians balancing their own vocals/instruments individually from what they hear in the monitors.

    all instruments direct (

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  • #2

    HI Marko,

    I'd be interested to hear how you get on with this.

    I tried something similar and found that one monitor mix just didn't work if all the intruments are direct. Players just couldn't hear themselves well enough to play their best.

    It might work for a duo or trio but at some point it becomes hard to hear yourself in the mix. 

    Good luck.

     

    Comment


    • Koopdaddy
      Koopdaddy commented
      Editing a comment

    • wesg
      wesg commented
      Editing a comment
      I would definitely get a monitor EQ in there at the very least. If you walk into the wrong room, you might have a real hard time getting enough vocal in the wedges otherwise.

      All-matching speakers is a good way to go, I think. I am 2/5 of the way into a 5-cab NX55P system. Checking the couch nightly for more money.

      Wes

    • Marko
      Marko commented
      Editing a comment

      Art Flood wrote:

      HI Marko,

      I'd be interested to hear how you get on with this.

      I tried something similar and found that one monitor mix just didn't work if all the intruments are direct. Players just couldn't hear themselves well enough to play their best.

      It might work for a duo or trio but at some point it becomes hard to hear yourself in the mix. 

      Good luck.

       


      New band, not gigging yet, we


  • #3

    I would never run any sound system without filters.

    EQ mains yes

    EQ monitors yes

    Tone shape and feedback control

    I prefer third octave

     

     

    Comment


    • Marko
      Marko commented
      Editing a comment

      Pro Sound Guy wrote:

      I would never run any sound system without filters.

      EQ mains yes

      EQ monitors yes

      Tone shape and feedback control

      I prefer third octave

       

       


      Thinking about it, I


  • #4

    I have no doubt that it can be made to work ... however I suspect that success will be greatly influenced by the number of instruments involved as well as the musicians themselves. 

    I've subbed with a band that tries to do that a couple of times.  I got thru the night - but didn't particularly enjoy it.  I found it incredibly difficult to hear myself.  It wasn't so much a volume thing - the monitors were actually louder than I care for personally.   For me it was trying to pick my instrument out of the mix of multiple instruments amplified from a single sound source.   I can't explain whatever science may be behind it - but I feel like my ears rely on knowing where  to listen to my keyboards.  I can play comfortably at relatively low volumes and still hear myself IF my keys are amplified through a speaker by itself.  I don't need it loud - but I do need the directionality of a seperate sound source.

    The SpaceNorman

    www.facebook.com/SuperstarsOfRock
    www.souldoutrocks.com

    Keyboards and Tone Generators: Yamaha CP300, Kronos 88, Roland AX Synth, Motif ES Rack
    Keyboard Rack: Samson SM10 Line Mixer, Motu MIDIExpressXT MIDI Interface, Shure PSM200 IEM system, M-Audio Wireless MIDI, Live Wires IEM ear buds, iPad wOnSong.
    Stage Amplification: Stereo via 2 Yamaha DSR112s

    Comment


    • Marko
      Marko commented
      Editing a comment

      SpaceNorman wrote:

      I have no doubt that it can be made to work ... however I suspect that success will be greatly influenced by the number of instruments involved as well as the musicians themselves. 

      I've subbed with a band that tries to do that a couple of times.  I got thru the night - but didn't particularly enjoy it.  I found it incredibly difficult to hear myself.  It wasn't so much a volume thing - the monitors were actually louder than I care for personally.   For me it was trying to pick my instrument out of the mix of multiple instruments amplified from a single sound source.   I can't explain whatever science may be behind it - but I feel like my ears rely on knowing where  to listen to my keyboards.  I can play comfortably at relatively low volumes and still hear myself IF my keys are amplified through a speaker by itself.  I don't need it loud - but I do need the directionality of a seperate sound source.


      Well, if it doesn


  • #5

    Marko wrote:

    How simple can a bar band get away with, rehearsed and prepare for it.  Assume all decent/good-quality equipment.

    ...

    All powered speakers-- subs, with fronts and monitors being the same cabs,

    one monitor mix, full mix, same as the fronts,

    disciplined musicians balancing their own vocals/instruments individually from what they hear in the monitors.

    ...

    (Consider the possibility of an electric drum kit as an option if it makes a significant difference).

     


     

    Are you able to consider in-ear monitors instead of wedges?  If so, might that give you more monitor control (and maybe less heavy stuff to haul)?

    On drums... depends on your guy and how he's living in your mix now with an acoustic kit.  The e-drums I've played have been a bit harsh on my wrists/forearms/elbows, and while there are probably variations on e-heads that might be better in that regard... I wouldn't want to wish it on anyone if the mix is happy now.  Not that I couldn't switch to e-drums myself, even, just that there's more to the decision than sound (esp. volume) control.

    -D44

     

    ************************************************** *********************************

    Old guy, just trying to play through the arthritis...
    - Balance is a virtue; loud for its own sake is not... and loud won't fix bad
    - I may not interpret ridiculous, crazy, or stupid the way you intended
    - Common retail products are never awesome (thermo-nuclear probably is, though)
    Assume the requisite list of stuff...

    Comment


    • TIMKEYS
      TIMKEYS commented
      Editing a comment

      I have been following this thread. First off I doubt that I would go direct with anything but keys and acoustic guitar. Face it guitar players like their amps, and bass will overwhelm most monitors. The reality is that you can play most small bar gigs without subs and do find, since a decent bass amp will carry the room and you wont need much guitar in the monitors. The skill you need to build in rehersal is getting the guys to sit in the mix and create a good stage mix. If you don't have that you really don't have squat. As for pa gear . a passive board with a couple monitor send channels and 4 powered speakers should handle the average bar gig. Now I do understand that this is a live sound forum and sound guys like their up scale gizmos, but from a players point of view. If you can give a sound man a good solid stage mix that had great balance and dynamics ,,The sound guy out front when you do work with one on a big room or big show will love you. As for rehersal ,, you wont even need mains and can just use monitors since there will be no room you are trying to cover.   The trick for a band to sound good is knowing how to play together and blend their sound where it sounds good both with vocals and instrumentation.  That is a musican thing , not a pa gear thing.   This is the foundation of a good band.  Much like building a house , it takes a good foundation and that is yoru stage mix and only you can make that happen. 


  • #6

    Marko wrote:

    How simple can a bar band get away with, rehearsed and prepare for it.  Assume all decent/good-quality equipment.

     

    Mixing from stage,

    Passive mixer with on-board FX (no outboard processing),

    All powered speakers-- subs, with fronts and monitors being the same cabs,

    one monitor mix, full mix, same as the fronts,

    disciplined musicians balancing their own vocals/instruments individually from what they hear in the monitors.

    all instruments direct (

    With Greater Knowledge Comes Greater Understanding

    Comment


    • #7

      Marko wrote:

      How simple can a bar band get away with, rehearsed and prepare for it.  Assume all decent/good-quality equipment.


       


      Mixing from stage,


      Passive mixer with on-board FX (no outboard processing),


      All powered speakers-- subs, with fronts and monitors being the same cabs,


      one monitor mix, full mix, same as the fronts,


      disciplined musicians balancing their own vocals/instruments individually from what they hear in the monitors.


      all instruments direct (

      Write something...

      Comment


      • #8
        "Consider the possibility of an electric drum kit as an option if it makes a significant difference)."

        I surprised no one yet commented on this one. It basically quadruples the requirements for your PA.
        Don Boomer

        Comment


        • RoadRanger
          RoadRanger commented
          Editing a comment

          dboomer wrote:
          "Consider the possibility of an electric drum kit as an option if it makes a significant difference)."

          I surprised no one yet commented on this one. It basically quadruples the requirements for your PA.

          Only if you are trying for the same (usually stoopid loud) SPL. Many folks go to an eKit so they can play quieter. One of my rehearsal spaces has an eKit and the "PA" is a $100 100 watt four channel box mixer into a pair of $50 10" 2 ways.


        • twostone
          twostone commented
          Editing a comment

          dboomer wrote:
          "Consider the possibility of an electric drum kit as an option if it makes a significant difference)."

          I surprised no one yet commented on this one. It basically quadruples the requirements for your PA.

          I did mentioned amp sims and e-kit in my post guess you missed it.  


      • #9

        You could check out Bennetts Quick and Dirty Bar Rig

        http://www.bennettprescott.com/

         

        Comment


        • OneEng
          OneEng commented
          Editing a comment

          Pro Sound Guy wrote:

          You could check out Bennetts Quick and Dirty Bar Rig

          http://www.bennettprescott.com/

           


          I have great respect for Bennett; however, it is still my personal opinion that the jury is still out on the StudioLive 328ai speakers.  The features LOOK great, but I have yet to hear anyone comment on how these speakers actually sound compared to other speakers in their class.

          Their "class" is $1600.00 each or $3200.00 for a pair.

          I will give them kudo's for being small and light at only 51lbs, but until I hear from people using these speakers and comparing them favorably to other speakers in and below this price range, I am holding my judgement on them

          Quick aside here.

          How do you guys feel about speakers with wireless apps for time/phase alignment and room eq?

          To me, it seems like lots of levers for someone to tweak.  Anyone of those knobs and levers could quickly turn into the dreaded "suck" knob



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