Does a full band have to play through a PA system to blend well together?

[samal50]

That is if a PA is actually needed (if the venue is big enough)? But if it's under 500 capacity venue, does a band actually need to use a PA or would playing each individual's amp in the band be about the same thing? Or if the use of a PA and a mixer make it all run smoothly and all instruments and vocals blend nicely together in one centralized PA system?

[Ampli]

Yes and no, it all depends on the balans /disepline of the band to make it sound good

Under 100 /150 u dont need a pa voor instrument

above you probably need one otherwise the stage volume will be much to high, than the monitors will need to be very loud, drums will be to quite , and everyone on stage gets deaf

[Mike M]

I am a firm believer that a band of good musicians (that know their place in the mix) can balance/blend themselves in most situations. With wireless technology a singer can walk out front and suggest things if needed.

 

In my band gigging days 80's/90's we didn't use monitors at times as some rooms were too small.. Large rooms/outdoor shows necessitated monitors.

 

I feel that monitors have become a necessity due to the current society's "me first" attitude....don't get me wrong, but there are many instrumentalists (non-musician instrument players) performing these days.

A musician playing in a band knows-their-place in the mix, a non-muso just plays and is only concerned about his personal sound - regardless of how loud that person is - hey: "It's all about me"....thus monitors are needed for other band members to hear what's going on.

 

Good musicians that play "within" themselves can balance/mix a group for the most part in a small setting IMO.

 

[daddymack]

Unless I was doing a huge outdoor venue, I would have the instruments rely on their own amps and only run vocals [and maybe the kick] into the PA.

 

I have seen 'electro' bands using Line6 Pods, keys and electronic drums run through a PA only, with monitors, but it sounds very sterile...then again, mp3s sound sterile to me.

[madjack]

A lot depends on the players, as has been suggested, and also on whether there is a dedicated sound person running the mixer. One problem with running off the amps in a larger venue is the "flashlight" effect of many guitar amps. I remember a New Pretenders show where the lead player's HiWatt stack was blasting where I was seated. Move 20 seats to the left or right and everything was well balanced. As for 'electro' bands sounding sterile; that also depends a lot on the players and whether they take the time to get their processors sounding correct. Last I knew, 38 special is an 'electro' band in concert these days, with all of the guitars on pods, but they don't sound sterile to me. Time well spent on arranging patches, and a good mix makes them every bit as dynamic as using amps would. I personally have a black face bandmaster, a boogie mk iv, a small Peavey and a small Acoustic amp; mostly I run direct through a stomplab 2 and it sounds as good as using either my tube amps or my solid state.

 

[wesg]

I'm with madjack on the "flashlight" effect. Look, it depends what you are trying to do.

 

Normally, my band is set up so that I need about 90 degrees coverage from the kick drum. I can do this EASILY with a pair of speakers on sticks. Guitar amps, on the other hand, have a coverage pattern of about 30 degrees. Get out a pen, ruler, and protractor and draw this crap all out.

 

I put guitar amps in the PA not to make them louder, but to make them cover the venue evenly.

 

As a bonus, we can run the back line amps a bit quieter, so the band members can hear other better.

 

HF frequencies also fall off the fastest. You can "throw" high-frequencies a lot farther with a PA speaker than a guitar amp.

 

I have stood beside and 25 feet from a LOUD guitar player....that I could barely hear. Flashlight-like directionality of guitar amps is very real. Stick a mic in front of the amp and run it through the FOH. It works.

[samal50]

I see. So the monitors actually spread the volume to everyone in the room (band and audience), not just on stage with the band (if the band were only to use their personal amps) as anything too loud can be deafening for the band.

[samal50]

Was it because they ran together into 1 PA that they sounded sterile?

[samal50]

But the guitarist would still need or have to use his guitar amp and not go direct to PA right?

 

Are guitar amps preferred mic'ed or can it run from a direct out (if it has it)? I think some bass amps do have a direct out to PA, if it needs to go through the PA.

 

I'm just curious why a band playing in the basement sound good without a PA, but MAY not sound the same on stage. I guess this is where the PA comes in, huh?

[madjack]

Guitar amps can be useful for easily changing tone and gain 'on the fly', for getting controlled overtones and feedback from the guitar pickups, and because they are generally engineered to sound good or 'correct' for those frequencies a guitar utilizes. All of that can also be done with modern processing and monitoring, so no, a guitar amp is not necessarily 'needed', but is often preferred by many guitarists. Yes, some amps have direct outs, My personal experience has not been positive with them, so if using an amp I will always use a mic. Other's experience might be different.

 

As for why a band might sound good in a basement but not onstage; often in the basement a band is setup facing each other, where that is not true onstage. Also, the basement is usually a smaller area than a performance venue, which will change the sound of the band. The size of the basement might keep the players to a more reasonable volume than a performance venue, as well.

[Axisplayer]

Many bands sound better through the system (but using their amps or direct if preferred) than with just their amps, but there are many variables.

 

Does the club seating extend beside the stage or behind it?

Does the club require low volume, but you still need coverage?

Open back or closed back cabinets?

Is everyone listening or just those on the dance floor?

 

Without knowing the gear, the club requirements, the layout, and the players, it is all speculation. So my generality is that I like everything in the PA if the club wants loud everywhere. I like it only in amps if the club wants it contained to the dance floor. I like it all in the monitors if the stage volume is low.

 

[Mike M]

That is if a PA is actually needed (if the venue is big enough)? But if it's under 500 capacity venue' date=' does a band actually need to use a PA or would playing each individual's amp in the band be about the same thing? Or if the use of a PA and a mixer make it all run smoothly and all instruments and vocals blend nicely together in one centralized PA system?[/quote']

 

One thing that I did when I had my band was: we rehearsed in my church's hall (high ceilings, about 500 seated at tables capacity) a few times to set the PA (We had added subs and wanted to give a listen and tweak)

 

We knew that every venue we played was different but we (I) wanted a reference point.

[Audiopile]

As others have said: "It depends." But I'll suggest that if you find you're routinely performing through a PA, then consider routinely practicing/rehearsing via a PA... preferably a PA set-up for practice that as reasonably as possible approximates your typical performance situation.

[daddymack]

no, it sounded sterile because it was all digitally processed. If you grew up on CDs and mp3, then you would not think it sounded sterile, but many of us 'dinosaurs' know the difference between analog and digital, and we like natural distortion, we like the non-pristineness. This is why vinyl is making a comeback.

 

Additionally, a lot of this has to do with the music itself, the musicians, the gear, the soundperson...there is no 'one and done' answer. I've done enough big stage work to know that mic-ing my amp into the PA gives me better dispersion, but how it sounds depends on mic placement, eq, panning...

[daddymack]

When you rehearse in the basement, you have time to tinker with your set up and your sound, and you get it where it sounds good in that specific room. Also, typically, you set up so everyone is facing inward to a central point so there is eye contact; not so on an actual stage. Direct out on a bass amp is usually good, on tube guitar amps, not so much.

[Phil O'Keefe]

No - monitors are for the band, the "mains" are for the audience. Both are part of the PA system. But everything in the room that makes noise (monitors, mains, personal amps, acoustic drums, etc.) can "spill" and possibly be heard elsewhere.

 

Examples: The drums can "bleed" into the vocal mics and be amplified over the PA, the guitar amps can be too loud and overwhelming the vocals in the PA (and there's nothing the sound engineer can do about it since the PA's mixing board can't turn down the guitar amp itself - only the channel for the mic that's sitting in front of the guitar amp) - hopefully, you get the idea.

 

What Ampli is saying is that if you try to get away without a PA in a large venue, using only the instrument amps onstage, you will have to turn them up really loud, and if you do, you will run into issues. You will need to turn the monitors up REALLY loud too in order for the musicians to be able to hear the vocals and other instruments, so you'll need really large, powerful monitors (or IEMs), which will "bleed" out and be heard by the audience and screw up what the sound engineer is trying to do with the Front of House (FOH / "audience") mix.

[Phil O'Keefe]

The only way a band is going to blend well together in a live situation is if the band - and the person mixing the show - listen to what's going on, and react accordingly.

 

Everything else is variable and situational.

 

If you are a three piece acoustic folk band playing in a small coffee shop or restaurant, you might use small amps for your instruments, and a small PA for the vocals. There's nothing wrong with that - you just need to work together, listen, and balance the levels of the individual instruments and vocals. A soundperson is unnecessary, and there's nothing they could do anyway except adjust the vocals since that's all that's going through the PA. If the lead guitar solo is too soft, they can't do anything about that.

 

As an alternative, you could run the instruments through the PA as well as the vocals. This requires a bigger PA system (at least in terms of input channels), but it has a couple of advantages - the musicians no longer need to bring an acoustic amp of their own for each instrument (a direct box or amp sim is all they need), and the person mixing the show will now have the ability to control the levels of everything, giving them the ability to create a nice mix, adjust the levels of individual parts (to highlight solos, mute a mic when the singer's coughing, etc.) and easily control the overall volume in the entire room.

 

The disadvantages to the PA-only / no individual amps system is that you ideally need someone to "run sound" and they need to know how to do so effectively since they're largely controlling the blend that the audience hears. Such an approach also puts a lot more emphasis on the need for good monitors and a good monitor mix so everyone can hear themselves and their fellow musicians properly since they'll no longer have amps of their own onstage serving as a way for them to monitor their own playing. IEM's (in-ear monitors) are becoming a lot more popular, and IMO they're the way to go vs. floor wedges. They weigh much less and it's less to have to cart to the gig, and they can't be heard by anyone except the person wearing them, which means no more worries about stage bleed, less concern about feedback... they're really the only way to go IMHO.

 

This kind of a setup (nice PA with the musicians running direct into the PA, in-ear monitors) can be scaled up to fit any sized venue - from a house concert all the way up to arenas.

 

Okay, so now we've looked at PA systems for a small acoustic trio, but what about larger bands? Let's say, a five piece rock or funk band consisting of a five piece drum kit, electric bass, two singers / electric guitarists and a singer / keyboardist.... how should you approach something like that?

 

Most bands are going to have at least some players who want to use amps of their own - guitarists in particular may want to do so since the guitar amp makes a significant contribution to a player's "sound." Others (for example, the keyboard player) may prefer to go direct. A suitable PA for a band like this will have enough channels to handle everyone, regardless of whether or not they need to be miked up or want to run direct. And I mean everyone - drums, bass, guitar, keyboards and vocal mics...

 

Levels? Let's just say it's complicated...

 

If the guitar players run their amps too loud, it will result in stage levels that are too high, which leads to bleed into the audience - if the amps are dimed and way too loud on their own, there's no way for the soundperson to lower them, or to raise the level of everything else high enough to compete. The mix the audience hears will be unbalanced. This is why it is so crucial for bands to learn to listen and to get a handle on their stage levels and keep them low. Again, IEMs can be helpful, but everyone also needs to learn to keep their amp levels reasonable too.

 

Typically, the #1 priority for a PA system is amplifying vocals. A PA needs to be powerful enough (at minimum) to get the vocals up to a reasonable level that will allow them to be heard over the band. If the room is small, the vocals might be the only thing going through the PA, and the drums and individual amps will be sufficient for everyone else to be heard by the audience. In very large venues, it will become necessary to have a larger, more powerful PA, and everyone (amps, drums, etc.) miked up and running through it. In between those two extremes - in moderate sized rooms - the band and soundperson will need to work together to achieve the best possible mix for the situation at hand.

 

 

[OneEng]

In all situations, having someone out front to mix you to sound good is essential. Mixing from stage (which I do most of the time btw) will always be flawed since you are mixing what YOU hear ..... which is very different from what the audience hears.

 

I have never been a believer that a good band simply mixes itself based on the stage volume. Nope. Not buyin it.

 

Principle number 1: High stage volume is the killer of good sound.

 

This is true because all that noise gets reamplified through the various microphones on stage (mainly the vocal mics which also add reverb and delay to what they get as well .... which really makes a mess). Ever hear of someone that simply CAN'T get the vocals over the band? Happens all the time, right? The loudest sound at the mic wins. If that happens to be a JCM900 instead of the singer, then raising that mic up only give you ..... yep, more JCM900 .... with reverb.

 

Keep your stage volume as low as possible.

 

Principle number 2: High frequencies are MUCH easier to get loud than low frequencies.

 

Because this is true, even in the smallest venue, the kick and toms should be miced. This isn't done to make the band louder, this is done to make the equalization of the band good. The cymbals only need miced in large venues, and if you mic the snare, you may want to bring out only the lower frequencies so they get mixed in with the crack of the snare to make it sound fuller. This is also why I always recommend a sub even in small venues.

 

Principle number 3: Guitar amps are horribly directional

 

Guitar amps also tend to get turned up WAY too loud for the mix and venue. This is due to a plethora of issues, but part of the problem is that the speaker is usually pointed at the rear of the lead players knees..... which don't happen to be very sensitive to sound

 

Guitars also have the unfortunate problem of being in the same frequency range as vocals ..... which is bad. Bass and kick will never drowned out vocals. Cymbals, snare, and guitar will.

 

Even when all these issues have been addressed, a guitar amp simply doesn't spread the sound around a venue at all. The people in front of the amp get blasted, and the ones off-axis can't hear it at all. Putting the guitar into the PA allows the band to have a balanced sound at all areas of the venue.

 

Principle number 4: All musicians will adjust their volume to make what THEY hear sound right to them.

 

The best way to combat this problem is by using IEM's with individual mixes. Many guitarist would rather eat dirt than use IEM's, but those that truly care about how the band sounds will grin and bear it. Shy of IEM's, have guitarist put their amps on amp stands in front of them, pointed at their head. Shield the amp from the audience side, and spread the sound with a mic through the PA. I rarely have had any issue with drummers, bass, and vocals using IEM's, but floor wedges are still a good way to get everyone some of what they need to hear to play. What is CRITICAL is that someone be able to control the FOH mix separate from the monitor mixes.

 

Having said all that, I have gotten some pretty good mixes micing only kick and vocals. The band was very good at keeping their amps where I asked them to. I used a couple of wedges and it sounded really great all night. It was a very small room though.

 

Getting musicians to turn down is critical to getting a good mix. Try doing a practice with no vocal amplification and get everyone to turn down to where you can hear the vocals easily. If you can pull this off, you can sound great at any venue.

[samal50]

What I'm trying to get here is to be "ready" for any situation; so if the whole band have their gear together (i.e. instruments and the amps/cabs needed), there won't be any arising issues regardless of what venue it may be. I'm assuming the band may not need a FOH type PA speaker to haul around and let the venue deal with that stuff and the band should simply focus on their sound as a whole? Let's put it this way, if the band sounds good in the basement during practice, I'm assuming the venue would do their job to make sure the band sound good in their venue.

[samal50]

So those days of great feedback are over? Stacks of speaker cabs no longer really needed these days? They should start selling props that imitate stacks of speaker cabs just to give that placebo effect. LOL.

 

I will look into IEMs for sure. So the band just need their instruments, amp sim, vocal mic/effect box, keyboards/synth, and drum set these days?

 

I just saw a DJ haul a huge 18" subwoofer out of a Guitar Center. I guess a local mobile DJ situation is different than someone like Skrillex?

[samal50]

- Regarding the vocal mic situation scenario you described; is there a way to get around it or must the singer have to be in an isolation vocal booth as the only solution?

 

- Regarding the guitar amp issue pointing toward the player's knees (LOL); would something that tilt 40-degrees toward the player's ears be ideal? Something like this:

 

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/VectorFS8--isp-technologies-vector-fs8-175-watt-full-spectrum-powered-cabinet?mrkgcl=28&mrkgadid=1669475631&rkg_id=0&campaigntype=dsa&campaign=aaDSA&adgroup=1669475631:DSA%20-%20Product%20-%20Guitar&placement=google&adpos=1t1&creative=248832405298&device=c&matchtype=b&network=g&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIycmiqKyO3AIVRlcMCh340wRKEAAYASAAEgK4PPD_BwE

 

Which is also marketed to be used as a vocal monitor. Something I may be looking into since I play a guitar synth and sing. But is 175 watts adequate for both guitar and vocal use?

 

Should I not focus on FOH stuff as this will most likely be handled by the venue and simply get a band or "stage" monitor? In this case an IEM, maybe? Or something like this:

 

https://www.guitarcenter.com/Galaxy-Audio/GPS-8-Full-Range-Personal-Monitor-PA-System.gc

[samal50]

btw when I say guitar amps, I meant the speaker cabs aka amplifier (i.e. as in a combo amp), not just the head (aka "power amp"). I've seen the latest Egnater guitar cabs have direct outs although I have no experience with them.

[madjack]

samal50, concerning your comment above; in almost 50 years of playing out in clubs, ballrooms, rental halls, etc. I can count the number of venues that had house PAs on one hand, unless it was a concert situation where a sound company was employed. And of that handful of venues with a system, I think only 1 or 2 had adequate systems. If you wish to be ready for any situation, your band will need a decent foh system, adequate to do the job for whatever venues you might play.

[madjack]

"So those days of great feedback are over?" Not necessarily. Great controlled guitar feedback can be created with a guitar direct into the mixer, or into a 1 watt amp. It depends on the guitarist, the processing, stage placement, monitoring, etc. Actually it is easier to get good controlled feedback with a small combo amp or a good pedal board than with huge stacks of speaker cabinets. Keep in mind that for those bands that actually used big speaker stacks, rather than empty boxes for show, it was mostly in a time when PA systems were somewhat primitive, and the amps had to carry the instrument sound without reinforcement (think of the Beatles at Shay Stadium).

[Audiopile]

I suggest taking a survey of your likely market/venues per venue supplied systems. There can be a Catch 22 in-that a band may need to be self sufficient PA wise, especially when starting out, to make it far enough up the ladder to perform at venues where the production gear and operator(s) are supplied, and/or: Relying on the production gear being supplied may seriously limit your opportunities. The band I'm a member of... maybe 10% of the shows we do, the PA is supplied, the other 90%+ we supply our own production gear. There's a few other venues we routinely play that have house systems we could use... but those house systems are so lousy, we run our system anyway. I have a good acquaintance who plays in a regional level band, they have a nice sound and light rig, but almost always play high-end shows/venues where the production is supplied... so they almost never supply their own system... but even though they're not routinely packing a sound and lighting rig like our band, they're hauling as-much or more gear as our band... because the types of venues/shows they're playing and their genre, they're using full Marshall stacks, SVT 810 bass rig, monster drum kit, high-end IEM system, etc... We run much smaller backline stuff, and a fairly simple sound & lighting rig. I think we generally gross as much per show as they do, and we both stay about equally as busy... although they travel a lot more than we do.

 

I'll suggest attaining and keeping a capable BE can be a challenge. We self-mix (from stage), simply due to the unavailability of capable sound folks in our area. With that, if you're self-mixing (mixing from stage), I suggest video & (decent) sound recording your shows for critical review can help tremendously. Multi-track recording for critical review of isolated instruments and vocals can help a bunch too.