Members Dookietwo Posted June 27, 2018 Members Share Posted June 27, 2018 Wanting a light weight , expandable top , I purchased a set of DB IG4T's. These are designed with subs in mind. I won't have a chance to take them out for a couple of weeks as I have this weekend off then next weekend I have to attend a wedding. I'll make a report when I go out with them. What I like is they are designed to be coupled for more output when needed and weigh in at 40lbs. http://www.dbtechnologies.com/en/products/ingenia/ingenia-ig4t-p2349.aspx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jgthatsme Posted June 27, 2018 Members Share Posted June 27, 2018 Congratulations on your purchase! I will be very interested in your results. I'm looking at those too. Also the ES1203. Are you going to use them with subs or just on their own? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dookietwo Posted June 27, 2018 Author Members Share Posted June 27, 2018 Congratulations on your purchase! I will be very interested in your results. I'm looking at those too. Also the ES1203. Are you going to use them with subs or just on their own? I'll be going out with my current Yorkville LS801pb subs. At least to start. http://yorkville.com/legacy/product/ls801p/ What I was looking for was a high output/light/ expandable if needed box. This does it all. I'll post more as I use them. I will use them alone in the coffee shop kind of stuff. 2 Acoustic guitars, keys - vocals kind of shows. Maybe add a sub as needed. Any questions just ask! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dookietwo Posted June 27, 2018 Author Members Share Posted June 27, 2018 If you don't need the full output that the IG4T's have the IG2T's with subs do a good job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Pro Sound Guy Posted June 28, 2018 Members Share Posted June 28, 2018 Looks like a pretty nice box and nice drivers in it as well. Puppy seems to like them as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jgthatsme Posted June 28, 2018 Members Share Posted June 28, 2018 I'll be going out with my current Yorkville LS801pb subs. At least to start. http://yorkville.com/legacy/product/ls801p/ What I was looking for was a high output/light/ expandable if needed box. This does it all. I'll post more as I use them. I will use them alone in the coffee shop kind of stuff. 2 Acoustic guitars, keys - vocals kind of shows. Maybe add a sub as needed. Any questions just ask! I'm in the suburbs of Buffalo which is a mere 20 minute drive from Niagara Falls where Yorkville's North American Distribution Center is located. I've been there many times in the past. I had those subs myself. Are you going to change that pole mount in the sub and use the threaded M20 along with the DB mount for the DB cabinet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dookietwo Posted June 28, 2018 Author Members Share Posted June 28, 2018 I'm in the suburbs of Buffalo which is a mere 20 minute drive from Niagara Falls where Yorkville's North American Distribution Center is located. I've been there many times in the past. I had those subs myself. Are you going to change that pole mount in the sub and use the threaded M20 along with the DB mount for the DB cabinet? I normally put my subs in the center when possible and tops on stands. I don't think I'll change that unless I go with 2 a side IG4T's , top speaker inverted, on top of the subs. I may experiment with a single stack and just use a short stubby pole for testing. The Yorkvilles are 3 3/4 inch deep top hat and the DB's are 4 inches in deep. I'll put a 7 1/2 inch pole in the yorkville so the full weight of the speakers are on the sub and the pole just keeps it stable. I've talked to people and that's all they use but I don't think I'd go out full time like that. I used to go 2 aside with the yorkville tops but oh the weight! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dookietwo Posted June 30, 2018 Author Members Share Posted June 30, 2018 Did a quick listen at work. As you know I use EF500p's with LS801pb subs. The tops and subs have been my staple for many years. I did a direct comparison today. The 4-6.5 inch drivers I really didn't expect to keep up with the subs nor did I really expect them to sound "full" if you will. With a EF500p on the left and IG4T on the right this is what I found. IG4T has about 1 db less output at 1khz than the EF500p both referenced to 80db. The coverage of the 4Ts are much better with recorded music and Live band tracks returned to my desk The horn on the 4T's are different and need to be heard. The up front level seems smoother and not as "pointed" as the 500's. Left to Right coverage up front is miles above the yorkie's. I pointed both speakers to the left about 45 degrees off center. The 4T's still sounded even where the horns on the 500's were down and the very high's missing. 75 feet back the Yorkvilles sounded as expected straight on with the tight pattern but lacked again side to side. The odd thing was the IG4T's seemed louder in the back and coverage was great. ( Thinking back I had the horns at about 7 1/2 feet up, more high's may have been heard up close with them lower ) Over all sound. The EF500's sounded average with no eq and had some 250 to 450hz gack stuff that I always take out. The IG4T's didn't need any eq to sound good. The fullness they gave was not expected. If anything they sounded very thick but clean at 100 to 300hz with authority. I found I used the 110hz crossover frequency built into the DSP in the IG4T's compared to the 100hz cut on the yorkvilles. To sum it up. Pretty much the same volume as my EF500p's which I really like up close but much better coverage. Farther back they manage to be louder but still have better coverage. All in all I can retire my EF500p's to high level drum / bass monitoring on stage and replace them with these. Same to better volume. Better coverage and "Sound" plus a 50 percent reduction in weight. These are better than my EF500p's. I'm keeping them and ordered some covers today. Side note. The IG4T's take a little more input to reach full output at the same time as the EF500p's. I adjusted for that during testing. They do have a handy VU meter on the back that shows input and gives you a quick reference as to the headroom left on the speaker. Also they had no problems keeping up to my subs. I may have had about 3-4db's to go in my tops when the subs limit lights came on with average tracks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Pro Sound Guy Posted July 1, 2018 Members Share Posted July 1, 2018 You made quite an investment seeing the price of those. Nice. I would consider like 120hz or even higher xover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dookietwo Posted July 1, 2018 Author Members Share Posted July 1, 2018 You made quite an investment seeing the price of those. Nice. I would consider like 120hz or even higher xover. Thanks. I'm reaching ol' fart age and wanted something light but quality , high output sound. I may and did ponder setting the crossover to 115hz or 120 hz but was pushing for time. They had no problems at 90hz which I didn't expect from them. I went to 110hz only because it seemed to me they were almost too full blending with my subs. I didn't have my Smaart system setup. It's really strange how they managed to get that kind of output and "sound" out of the box. They weren't breaking a sweat doing it. I was in a large room for testing. A good party level still left around 10 to 15 Db's of headroom in the tops. Pushing until the subs ran out was too loud for me and I like it loud! ;-) this was with live band tracks with good dynamic content. Time will tell if they are money well spent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Pro Sound Guy Posted July 1, 2018 Members Share Posted July 1, 2018 Well you ran program material through them and not a live drum set? I like a big mid bass for drums and you might find a higher xover to work better considering those are only 6.5" drivers. Driver size is off the top of my head while typing this so if Im wrong correct me. I have found up to 150hz to work well with 12" two way boxes for live sound. Back in the big horn loaded days with double and single scoops 250hz was the norm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dookietwo Posted July 1, 2018 Author Members Share Posted July 1, 2018 Well you ran program material through them and not a live drum set? I like a big mid bass for drums and you might find a higher xover to work better considering those are only 6.5" drivers. Driver size is off the top of my head while typing this so if Im wrong correct me. I have found up to 150hz to work well with 12" two way boxes for live sound. Back in the big horn loaded days with double and single scoops 250hz was the norm. I have a X-Live card installed in my Midas M32R mixer. So prerecorded, unprocessed , drum tracks , bass guitar , vocals etc. Using Radius squared times Pie you get the piston area. A single 12 has 113 square inches. The 4, 6.5 inch drivers on the IG4T have 132 square inches total with a 15 inch driver having 176 square inches. The IG4T is a good sized 12 inch speaker overall. I always try to keep my subs in the center when possible. Not a big fan of placing the subs L/R with all the power alley issues it sometimes makes. Doing this does keep the crossover point needing to be lower on the subs so the subs don't become "noticed". You do have a good point as far as keeping the crossover point higher to keep the excursion in check with the smaller drivers. I believe the highest Low Cut Filter available in the IG4T speaker is 120hz. I can go higher by going full range on my tops then using the built in crossover on the board. I still may do that and even try tops over subs on poles or at the very least tripods beside them. These speakers have caused me to rethink my "normal" setup I've been using for years. Of course before to lift the tops up on poles mounted in the pole socket on the subs was a bear to say the least. The EF500p tops are 82 to 90lbs if I remember right. Now its very simple to lift the 40lb IG4T's. I feed my subs off an aux and use the built in processing they have to set the High Cut Filter crossover point in them. It ranges from 90 to 150hz. I may try the tops at 150hz and above with the subs 150hz and below just to try it. Again with the light tops I can try different setups I haven't tried for years. You've given me food for thought. Thanks. Doug Edit for math. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Pro Sound Guy Posted July 2, 2018 Members Share Posted July 2, 2018 Well definitely need to use lower xover if you center cluster subs everywhere. As long as the bands do not complain about excessive bass on stage from center clustered subs. Whatever you try don't be afraid to think outside of the box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Pro Sound Guy Posted July 3, 2018 Members Share Posted July 3, 2018 These are some EAW boxes with RCF drivers. 7" midrange. The passive xovers are at 400hz to the mid drivers. I can bi am them at 400hz as well from the 15" drivers to the 7" drivers and horns which is passive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jgthatsme Posted July 3, 2018 Members Share Posted July 3, 2018 I'm getting old. My back hurts just looking at that box. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dookietwo Posted July 3, 2018 Author Members Share Posted July 3, 2018 I've lugged a few in my day! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Pro Sound Guy Posted July 3, 2018 Members Share Posted July 3, 2018 Now that's a pile of Peavey! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Pro Sound Guy Posted July 7, 2018 Members Share Posted July 7, 2018 Ive been messing with some boxes in the back yard. EAW dual 15" passive subs with EAW JF260 12" two ways on sticks. I wanted to try running the tops at 120hz and I am running the subs at 90hz. This is what JBL does with their powered PRX 700 series. With some tweaking and delay etc I have it sounding very good back there. By pushing the subs harder you can bring it up to overlap just right. I also tried 100hz on the subs with different xover points for the tops. All 24db per octave LR slopes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dookietwo Posted July 8, 2018 Author Members Share Posted July 8, 2018 Ive been messing with some boxes in the back yard. EAW dual 15" passive subs with EAW JF260 12" two ways on sticks. I wanted to try running the tops at 120hz and I am running the subs at 90hz. This is what JBL does with their powered PRX 700 series. With some tweaking and delay etc I have it sounding very good back there. By pushing the subs harder you can bring it up to overlap just right. I also tried 100hz on the subs with different xover points for the tops. All 24db per octave LR slopes. Sure. There is as I believe you know 2 major items to consider when selecting your crossover point. 1 is the "electronic" crossover point of the crossover device used. A L/R filter set to 100hz in most crossovers will give you a 6db down point in level at 100hz. The sub is down 100hz and so is the top. When both are in proper alignment and level this yields a flat combined frequency response at and above and below the crossover point. But the other issue is what is the "Acoustic Output" of the boxes at the crossover point. In general a sub will have an easier job reproducing higher frequencies than the lower ones. A non powered box needs to have its frequency response equalized before before High Cut and possible out of bandwidth subsonic low frequency content is taking out. The sub may have a 4 db peak at 100hz. So a crossover slope that takes out 6 db's now leaves a 4 db peak in output at 100hz. ( powered boxes of fair to better quality should have this taken out. Having a underlapped crossover point of say 90hz for the sub and 120hz for the top box will now yield a flat response through the crossover area. Many manufactures use under lapped and over lapped crossover slopes (and different types of filters) to get an optimally flat amplitude through the crossover area. Add to that a All Pass Filter to get a better phase response and the fun never ends. Download a good FFT analyzer software and build yourself a measurement system and you'll see what is going on as well. I'll post a picture of one of my Yorkville LS801pb subs I measured in my driveway. In this case I set its internal crossover for a 6 db down point at 120hz. The high cut looks to be a staggered pole type. I set it's response to Deep which increased its output at the 53 hz area and extended its 6 db down point to 38hz. I eq'd this bump out to get a flat response through this 38 to 120hz range. You can see the response before and after the filter was added. Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dookietwo Posted July 8, 2018 Author Members Share Posted July 8, 2018 1. The measurement setup. 2. The settings on back of the LS801pb, 3. the sub when set on loud ( 6 db's down as Yorkville states it should be ) and 4. the sub before on loud and after on deep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Pro Sound Guy Posted July 9, 2018 Members Share Posted July 9, 2018 Have you looked at ARTA? Just curious what you are using? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dookietwo Posted July 9, 2018 Author Members Share Posted July 9, 2018 http://www.rationalacoustics.com/smaart/about-smaart/. Is what i use. Haven't looked at arta yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Pro Sound Guy Posted July 23, 2018 Members Share Posted July 23, 2018 Curious what you came up with? Aux subs is also another consideration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dookietwo Posted July 24, 2018 Author Members Share Posted July 24, 2018 Curious what you came up with? Aux subs is also another consideration. For this weekend I'm playing in the same room as in this picture. Band is 90 percent in ears. I've been using Aux fed subs for 25 years or so and will stay with that. I'm going to try subs in the center as pictured , tops L/R then the next time I play in that room I'll put the tops over the subs on the subs pole mount , subs of course L/R. I may also try the two subs together with both tops on top of each other as a mono stack in this room stacked on the left side. It may work I just have to go there to see if sight lines, enough room is available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dookietwo Posted July 29, 2018 Author Members Share Posted July 29, 2018 First night with Db IG4T speakers. The IG4T's were a direct replacement from Yorkville EF500p speakers. Used in the same room that I've worked many times. They have a much better sound quality and output. Should anyone wonder if these will replace a standard , high output 15/horn speaker as a Mid/High they do and sound better doing it. I have to say these replaced my EF500p tops with a good margin to spare. Ton's of volume and the sound "image" is much better. These rival high quality home stereo speakers as far as image and overall response. The speakers seemed to disappear with the Lead vocal's coming from a center spot not out of the speakers and great pan image. Really HiFi. I recorded 1 video early but you can see I had around 18-21 db's to go. My phone doesn't do a good job on live sound. The speakers coasted all night. Video behind the speakers so not the best spot to record from either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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