is it the venue's job to give the best live sound or the band?

[samal50]

I was skimming through the latest AMS catalog and was wondering why they sell Cerwin Vega products in a catalog that caters mostly to musicians. Do bands have to have their own live sound setup? Is it not the job of the venue and they're simply amplifying up a performer's setup to the "standards" of the venue?

 

I've always wondered what those speakers the size of a refrigerator were for...

[duderanch]

In my experience playing for 20 years in bands, unless you are playing a really professional bar or club, bands ends up supplying their own sound. I'm talking about your weekend warrior type band which I think the majority of bando's are in. I've played a range from total holes in the wall bars and associations (local VFW type stuff) to really nice bars, unfortunately much more of the first one! LOL. It is GREAT when you play at a serious professional place with their own sound and lights and get to just walk in and play...but again, for the regular guy (or gal) that is in a weekend band, even a good one, you have to provide your own sound often. As such, most bands do have their own PA. Now, if you are a full time musician playing big time venue's all the time....then maybe you are lucky enough to always walk in with only your personal rig, but the majority of regular bando's end up providing their own PA often. Bottom line - it is really up to how the venue decides to manage their sound. This is my experience, with the caveat that I'm in a suburb type area and not a major metropolitan city. In that case, it may be different.

[samal50]

couldn't what the band rehearses with in the basement be mic'd by the venue, assuming it's a few hundred person capacity type of venue (aka "pro" amphitheater).

[agedhorse]

Most bands don't bring in enough money for the venue to justify the expense.

 

Larger venues are a different story. If the band sells tickets, the world is entirely different than the weekend warrior circuit. With the larger shows, either the venue will supply PA and techs, or will hire in, or the promoter will hire the PA and techs.

[daddymack]

no, rehearsal gear is generally not s good as performance gear, because the overall sound is not the point at rehearsal. I know bands that rehearse with everyone playing through Line 6 Pods, and the drummer has an inexpensive Simmons kit, and they use one powered speaker. They do not play out on those rigs. I f teh band rehearses with topnotch gear, then yes, but that is not typically the case. I use a 5 or 10w amp at rehearsals, because I don't need to project the sound very far, and I don't want to be loud....we need to hear all the parts clearly to understand how the song works. It helps to have a great drummer who understands that 'dynamics' isn't about how loud you play, but how softly

[samal50]

daddymack, when you say how softly, does that mean the drummer uses a different drum stick or just not banging on it as loud?

[samal50]

If it's all in the room size, couldn't a "stage treatment" (in contrast to a "room treatment") be set up and adjusted as well instead of getting more wattage power which means more gear to haul and bring?

[daddymack]

Both, and more of the latter than the former. Using light sticks, like hotrods or brushes are only a tool, they need to learn the skill of control.

[daddymack]

room size is relative. I'm totally not understanding your terms "stage treatment" and "room treatment" ...

My band plays hotel ballrooms where we have to bring in our own PA.

Outdoor bandshell...our own PA.

Private party...our own PA.

Beach Party...our own PA...and a generator!

A gigging band needs a scale-able PA, with a starting point of about 1kw meaning 500w per side of the FOH. Anything less is not going to cover much of anything except maybe a small coffee house.

We have played rooms where the house PA was woefully under-powered, or in a state of disrepair to the point our performance suffered.

We have also played rooms with exceptionally excellent PA rigs.

 

My band actually has three separate PA rigs and two complete and separate monitor rigs, with boards with 8/12/16 channels, powered and passive speakers...whatever we need, we bring.

 

I am also kind of getting the picture here that no one in your band has much experience with performance gear. Hire a good sound guy!!!

[Audiopile]

If it's all in the room size' date=' couldn't a "stage treatment" (in contrast to a "room treatment") be set up and adjusted as well instead of getting more wattage power which means more gear to haul and bring?[/quote']

 

Well... we always bring our own persian style rugs for the stage. At times the rugs really do help some with improving the sound, but mostly it's for our comfort zone... defines our "stage area", we know where everything fits on the rug pattern, it's easy on our feet, an arguably "pro" touch that "looks nice", etc...

 

I haven't yet found a replacement for "basic sufficient wattage" (enough rig for the gig) other than picking the gigs, genre, and fellow musicians that don't require megawatts.

[One_Dude]

Sometimes the sound system at a venue is so bad or so poorly wired, that you are better off bringing your own gear. At least you are familiar with your system and you know that it works. I have been hired in the past to work sound for a local museum at one of their fund raisers. They originally just wanted me to provide mics and stands. The staff was very nice and helpful, but knew nothing about their almost new sound system. I spent a couple of hours studying their system and finally decided that the only person who could possibly understand how it was cobbled together was the person who installed it (maybe). I ended up bringing in my own system. It was more work for me, but the event was a success and everything went smoothly.

 

In general, I think only the best venues will have first rate sound systems and be willing to hire a sound guy to operate it.

 

One_Dude

 

[OneEng]

As stated by others ....

 

Little venues rarely have anything .... and God help you if you actually use it.

 

Even larger venues tend to have crap PA gear. It isn't until you get into the very few and far between venues that have a house PA that is done well, setup and maintained well, and has someone capable to run it. Those are like GOLD if you can find one

 

For the vast majority of weekend warrior gigs, you will need to bring your own system.

 

Now ..... how much money should you spend on it?

 

My personal opinion is that you should spend around 5-7K. For that amount, you can get a decent FOH speaker system, digital mixer, and a good set of microphones, cords, and stands to do your gigs with.

 

How (you may ask) do I ever justify paying that kind of money if I am only getting $300 a night for the whole band to play?

 

You don't. I play personally because I love to play. In my day job I am an engineering executive and I can conclusively say there is NO business case for playing music for a living. I generally consider it a hobby that occasionally pays for dinner and drinks for me and my wife while I play

 

I just can't stand sounding like crap when I play live.

 

You can also go the other direction. How do you make money with your setup.

 

If you are hell bent on making money playing bars, about the only way to do so is to skimp on your system, but get something with good warranty so if it breaks, you aren't out the money.

 

A pair of Yamaha DBR 15" speakers will get your through any gig with decent sound and enough output to cover small venues. They are also warranted for 7 years. Still, just the speakers are 1K.

 

Run your kick and vocals only into the PA and you only need about $400 for microphones.

 

With such a small system, you can use a small digital mixer like the XR12 $250.

 

You still will need at least 2 monitors. If you use a pair of DBR10's add in another $500.

 

Add in another $500 for cables and stands and you are at around $1800 for a bare minimum system.

 

If you manage to make $100 a night (many don't), you will have the system paid for in only 18 gigs. If you gig every week, you are in the black and making money with your PA in only 4 months give or take a bit.

 

I think it is a labor of love. I can see no reason for anyone to do bar band work this for money

 

... of course, if you are good enough to play in a wedding band, you can make some pretty good change on those. Wedding bands definitely need a good PA though, and they also need a light show as well. Still, it is not uncommon for a wedding band to pull in 2-7K for a single night.

 

 

[Audiopile]

As stated by others ....

 

Little venues rarely have anything .... and God help you if you actually use it.

 

Even larger venues tend to have crap PA gear. It isn't until you get into the very few and far between venues that have a house PA that is done well, setup and maintained well, and has someone capable to run it. Those are like GOLD if you can find one

 

For the vast majority of weekend warrior gigs, you will need to bring your own system.

 

Now ..... how much money should you spend on it?

 

My personal opinion is that you should spend around 5-7K. For that amount, you can get a decent FOH speaker system, digital mixer, and a good set of microphones, cords, and stands to do your gigs with.

 

How (you may ask) do I ever justify paying that kind of money if I am only getting $300 a night for the whole band to play?

 

You don't. I play personally because I love to play. In my day job I am an engineering executive and I can conclusively say there is NO business case for playing music for a living. I generally consider it a hobby that occasionally pays for dinner and drinks for me and my wife while I play

 

I just can't stand sounding like crap when I play live.

 

You can also go the other direction. How do you make money with your setup.

 

If you are hell bent on making money playing bars, about the only way to do so is to skimp on your system, but get something with good warranty so if it breaks, you aren't out the money.

 

A pair of Yamaha DBR 15" speakers will get your through any gig with decent sound and enough output to cover small venues. They are also warranted for 7 years. Still, just the speakers are 1K.

 

Run your kick and vocals only into the PA and you only need about $400 for microphones.

 

With such a small system, you can use a small digital mixer like the XR12 $250.

 

You still will need at least 2 monitors. If you use a pair of DBR10's add in another $500.

 

Add in another $500 for cables and stands and you are at around $1800 for a bare minimum system.

 

If you manage to make $100 a night (many don't), you will have the system paid for in only 18 gigs. If you gig every week, you are in the black and making money with your PA in only 4 months give or take a bit.

 

I think it is a labor of love. I can see no reason for anyone to do bar band work this for money

 

... of course, if you are good enough to play in a wedding band, you can make some pretty good change on those. Wedding bands definitely need a good PA though, and they also need a light show as well. Still, it is not uncommon for a wedding band to pull in 2-7K for a single night.

 

 

Good suggestions. I'll take the opportunity add my perspective on this matter:

 

1) How much to spend on a "band PA" and possibly lighting rig... and whatever else production stuff? I personally believe that if you're going to go this route, consider capitalizing at least as much (dollar for dollar) on the production gear as the sum total replacement value of the personal instruments & backline equipment the band performs with. It's not a hard & fast rule... but the general idea seems logical to me. For example: If one was fixing to break into the lawn mowing business, capitalizing the business with a new off the dealer lot $40K pick-up truck with another $5K worth of custom wheels and tires and a $10 yard sale lawn mower likely wouldn't be the wisest choice.

 

2) I believe it's short-sighted to justify a gear budget based on current income, especially starting out, but rather one should capitalize the tool for the job based on some sort of mutually agreed upon business model. IE: Don't capitalize the production gear based on the some-odd hundred dollar (or less) likely beginning performance opportunities in the market, but base the capitalization on the types of gigs the band is striving to attain over the next 2 or 3(?) years. However, if you're already "there" and you're fine with that, then capitalizing for the status quo makes sense. To meet your goals, it may take money to make money.

 

3) The band should take stock of their resources. If nobody in the band has the means or chops or inclination to deal with the production side, and do a good enough job to be up to the band's standard, consider sourcing a booking agent (either internally or externally), and only book gigs where the production is supplied and is up to the band's standards. Going this route will likely be best served involving contracts and riders (or at least stage plots, minimum equipment requirements, and an input list.) Or consider hiring the production services when the absence of a venue system or other criterion justifies subcontracting the production.

 

BTW: This past Friday our band performed as "the dance band" for an event and there was another group entertaining for the dinner hour. We're a 5 piece dance band with a modest, but "suitable for our market" production rig (sound & lights). The other group was 12 member a cappella. They didn't use a PA... didn't need one for the event... they did just fine just walking on stage and belting it out. Notably though, I suspect the dollar total they'd invested in their collective performance attire they wore for the gig likely approximated our investment in our production gear... and they did look sharp, and sounded really good too, and put on a very entertaining show... and I'm guessing they likely got paid as much or more than we did for playing the gig... and they're likely highly in-demand (they were headed to a second performance in the area that evening).

[heath_eld]

Here in Aus the band (cover bands, that is) supply their own PA.

 

i did a gig the other night (3 originals bands) where the venue had a handy enough PA on paper. But I get there and there’s a channel out, there’s a bit of guesswork on what plugs in where and how you turn it all on. Then the guy in the bar cuts the power to FOH mid set. By accident. As you do.

 

generally regular gigging bands make enough money to buy a solid MI grade PA. I think if you’re aiming above that you might struggle unless you have a long term plan.

 

I worked for a cover band the other night where we supplied the PA but it belonged to the agency. All supplied in a van. It was old, but good quality, gear. All leads and mics were solid. Worked well. No doubt it was all paid off a long time ago. Not a bad business model.

[Mike M]

In my band-gigging-days (80's-90's) the bands carried their own sound for the most part. My band had a basic 8 channel powered mixer, two mains and two monitors.

Nothing crazy, and the band played within themselves.

It was quick to set up and tear down and sounded decent for the size clubs we played. We mixed from stage and I used a wireless mic on my sax to walk the room as the band played (patrons loved it btw) and I would return to the stage and tweak when necessary.

 

IMO: A band should have a basic PA in their rehearsal space..so why not be able to take it on the road...?

 

We did many gigs with no monitors and as long as everyone "listened", people were happy.

 

I currently run a small sound-for-hire operation. It is very easy to get "caught up" in the sound-system rat race IMO.

Get a simple rig, simple lights, you don't need much to make it work...

 

 

 

 

[MrHarryReems]

What I tend to see is that small venues don't have any sound system to speak of, and larger venues generally do. A fairly moderate rig will probably be enough to cover you. For the past 3 years, I've used a 16 channel unpowered board though a set of QSC K10 mains. I've never been in a circumstance where I needed anything larger. Every event we've played that required anything larger had it's own sound.

 

I do have quite a bit in my wireless rigs and headworn condenser mics, but as the singer and guitar player, I consider my mics to be every bit as much a critical instrument as my guitars, and I invest in them as such.