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Upgrading a PA system and playing out first time for money


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We have a 8:30pm -12:30pm gig Sept 9th. in a fairly small bar. The stage can be extended 27 feet in width and 15 feet out towards audience. We will have 2 guitars, a bass, a drummer, a singer and keyboard player. Should be tight. I just bought a used Allen and Heath GL 24 channel. It is big 32.2 inches wide and 22.2 inches long. Should I have this mixer on stage? i don't have a snake so I can't put the mixer out to the middle of room unless I get a snake? The Allen and Heath is a unpowered mixer. Do I need to buy an amplifier for the mixer? Our band has no monitors for this show. Should I buy powered monitor or passive monitors.t We are looking to purchase a couple monitors one for the drummer one for the vocalist. We have RCF 312 for FOH speakers. Any monitor recommendations. Any advice on the snake monitors a outboard effects like reverb that we can attach to the mixer?

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I recommend, in the band's best interest, consider hiring a capable sound contractor in the area for this first gig. Admittedly, the cost of the sound contractor for the show could equal or exceed the band's pay, but take notes of the sound contractor's methods and equipment... will likely be a very cost effective education, and could avoid the possibility (probability?) of a disaster for the band's first gig... so the band can concentrate on putting on a good performance, and not noodling around with gear.

 

Otherwise: You likely won't "need" to mic anything but the vocal(s)... or rather, you can likely get by micing only the vocal(s), unless your guitarists, and/or bass, and/or keyboardist don't have stage amps. I suggest not complicating things with attempting to incorporate a snake and FX. Certainly a couple more powered speakers for monitors is a good idea... you don't need outboard amps if you're running powered speakers.

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BillESC .I don't need to be told again that I lack the understanding to accomplish a task. You did not answer the question. You just echoed back what the previous person said.. Can anybody recommend a powered monitor? Tell me the brand give me a model number and tell me why I should go with this monitor.Tell me there own personal experience with it.

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BillESC .I don't need to be told again that I lack the understanding to accomplish a task. You did not answer the question. You just echoed back what the previous person said.. Can anybody recommend a powered monitor? Tell me the brand give me a model number and tell me why I should go with this monitor.Tell me there own personal experience with it.

 

You have two seasoned pros giving you some good advice and you come back at them all sassy?

 

You want a powered monitor recommendation? Go get yourself some JBL PRX 712's. You'll be happy but none the wiser. JMHO

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Specific to the monitor question: I'll offer another couple of those RCF 312's could be a logical choice. Although I have no experience with those speakers, you do, and I'll suggest that if you like them, they'll likely serve a-ok, fine in a monitor application... and having a couple more would offer you some redundancy if need be: IE: You can likely make it through a show with one less monitor better than one less FOH speaker.

 

What I additionally recommend that I suspect you may need for this gig, and that I have continued first hand experience with, is:

 

1) Sufficient AC power cable.

2) A good handtruck.

3) Speaker stands for your FOH speakers.

4) A decent multimeter and knowledge of testing electrical outlets to confirm suitable function.

 

After 40+ years of being in "the business", I continue to find that AC power at the venue and load-in and load-out to be the most challenging aspects of most gigs... *that*, plus "the drummer and guitarist is too darn loud" (burying the vocals). Nevermind the fact that the venue owner has assured you that "bands play here all the time" concerning AC service at the venue (the supplied stage power at last gig I played consisted of a 100ft. 16ga. weedeater cord run from the "kitchen"... missing the ground and the load and neutral swapped due to a duck taped "replaced" male end that involved some string and what looked like burnt bandages... and "load-in and load out" closest parking was a few thousand feet away... closest route was "pretty ugly"... nevermind... the longer routes were equally as ugly... we (I) opted for the closest route).

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Chord123

 

I'm not sure why you took Bills post so hard, maybe things get lost in translation....

Yes you can get some recommendations for gear but there is a MUCH larger issue here. Your questions indicate that you don't (yet) know much about operating or connecting a system and you have a gig in two weeks. Learning to properly run a system takes time you apparently don't have available. No ones trying to bust your chops, just trying to save you from a train wreck.

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I did not say I am taking it hard only you seem to say that. You and everybody else are just restating Audiopiles thoughts. A PA system is not rocket science. I can hook some speakers up in a minute to a mixer. What is so hard about that? Does that require months of learning? The bass player in the band has plenty experience with sound systems and gigging so we are not as inexperienced as you think. No train wreck is going happen. I see you could not come up with any recommendations either. Again you miss the point .I am just trying to get somebodies idea of very good monitors that's all.If you would start answering that question I could get some for the show and get some more experience you say I lack.

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Ok so I will play the game. Your attitude sucks and since you seem to know it all "should I plug my sound console into an amp" because it's not powered is an interesting question to which you wont get an answer from me. I will also leave you clueless to my experience on stage monitor selections that might fit your needs perfect. The others that have had the patience to answer you respectfully have more experience than you know and could help you avoid making costly mistakes financially as well as poor sound for your band. Your most likely purchasing your own gear now because you treat people with disrespect and can't get a soundguy within 100 miles to assist you. "A PA is not rocket science" makes me smile as I never heard anyone EVER make that statement regardless of the experience level they have. GOOD LUCK your gonna need it!!!! That said you could always hit the reset button and be respectful, that might get you the answers you desire but will see where that goes????

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I am sorry if I came across as sassy. My intentions are good .Since you are so willing to give me helpful advice. I want to give you some helpful advice. Doing so will help you avoid costly financial mistakes in the future. Don't hire a professional sound man. Been there done that. Our sound man is not worth the $800 he will charge . Especially for a bar gig that pays $400 for a six member band. Thats $65 each member, and the sound man gets $800. Do you think we are that stupid? I liked the suggestion but will not consider a professional sound man that charges twice what the band makes a night. We are doing our own sound. Now monitor recomendations please?

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I am sorry if I came across as sassy. Since you are so willing to give me helpful advice Do you want some helpful advice from me that will save you from costly mistakes financially? Don't hire a professional sound man. Been there done that. Our sound man is not worth the $800 he will charge . Especially for a bar gig that pays $400 .So not even considering a professional sound man.

 

I apologize that I seemingly struck a nerve here with my suggestion to consider hiring a production contractor (sound person). I agree a $800 sound man is likely not worth it for a $400 bar gig... unless the sound person is "quite good", and the combination of the production and the gig is a springboard to considerably better paying work and a busy schedule.

 

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Having been in your situation - running sound from the stage & playing rhythm guitar in small clubs for small money. I can offer an amateur's advice.

 

​For what you need to do now, Yamaha A12M wedge monitors deliver good performance for the money - about $240 each from online music stores.

 

Amplifier: Behringer EP2000 delivers a lot of power for the money. Run one speaker from each channel. If you really understand your mixer, then you can do individual monitor mixes - for simplicity, you can feed the monitors with the FOH mix. Do not use reverb in the monitors as it will only increase the likelihood of feedback. Vocals seldom need reverb in a live room. Vocals come first - I don't care if you have Edward Van Halen as your guitarist and Jason Bonham as your drummer, the vocals HAVE TO BE ON TOP.

 

Use your PA for vocals only unless you have a dedicated sound man who can do the mix properly. You'll have to run your EQ flat until you have that sound man - you can't do it on stage. If you do have a graphic EQ, it should only be used to reduce microphone feedback.

 

Advice from an amateur who had to do it on the down low.

 

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I didn't know where to begin so I just put out some random thoughts as they came to me.

 

1 - First of all, a 27' wide by 15' deep stage is not "tight", it's a godsend. In over 750 shows we've maybe had a performance area roughly that large 20 times at most and NEVER for a "small bar". Heck, there's a "small bar" we play that isn't much bigger than 27x15. FWIW, our contract says min dimensions for the performance area are 16x12 and we're lucky if we end up with that 1/2 the time.

 

2 - You're really asking if your passive mixer needs an amp and then getting snarky that someone dare suggest you're in over your head? This question shows you've put no time into learning about this stuff. Your comment that it's "not rocket science" further illustrates you not only "don't get it", but actually don't want to get it.... just tell me what to buy is a foolish proposition.

 

3 - Yes, $800 for sound is indeed outrageous for a "small bar". I'm not sure where you are located, but "small bar" production usually runs $200-$350. For a setup like yours (speakers on sticks, no subs, no lights) you'd probably be around $250, but would also get 3-5 monitors, 31 band eqs, some sort of micing of the drum kit if needed. You'd be very well served to stop buying random gear and instead, try to find some small time operation that would do your production for $400 or less. At the "first gig" experience level you're at it shouldn't be about making money YET. Consider it paying for an education and also having a shot of sounding decent with someone there that's at least monitoring the situation and adjusting things.

 

4 - Throwing a couple of monitors onto your pile of sound gear still doesn't really give you what you need. Do you have an EQ for at least the FOH? What about EQing the monitors?

 

5 - Do you know what to do with that big ol' mixer? For example how to work the High Pass Filters? What sweepable mids are and how to use them? Will you run pre or post fade monitors?

 

6 - What about all the other stuff? Do you understand microphone placement to best avoid feedback? How to set proper gain structure? How to mic a drum kit....and get it to sound good for your genre with no gates, compression, etc? That every open mic on stage reduces overall headroom, not to mention mix clarity?

 

7 - All this said, bars paying $400 for a 6 pc band don't really deserve very good sound. Most of the bands coming in with basement gear and little knowledge of production.... you you'll just be "the next one" doing this. The performers should make something approximating a wage and they really aren't at $400 a show because they are either paying most of it to the sound company, or are bringing in $10,000+ worth of PA and lights themselves that will never be paid off at $65 a night. These types of gigs can only be profitable with a minimal system with only vocals amplified (powered mixer/passive mains or small passive mixer/powered mains - A monitor for the main vocalist and the rest of the instruments all using their personal amplification and trying to balance the sound well enough to be passable. Max volume would be dictated first by the ability of the PA to amplify the vocals, and secondly by ability of the unmiced drums to be heard. (maybe you mic the kick, EQIng out most of the lows in favor of the slap/attack so you can have both volume and headroom)

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Well, there are a lot of questions here, but I agree that this isn't rocket science.

 

Here's my .02 which is worthless given that I don't know what kind of music you're playing.

 

Put the mixer on the stage, buy another powered speaker and point it at the band. Just get a another RCF 312.

 

I wouldn't do anything more than that, assuming that you have stands and can put the pa speakers up on some appropriate speaker stands.

 

Actually, if you're not a loud band, instead of buying another speaker, I'd just put one of the speakers behind the band for a monitor. I play crappy restaurant gigs every week and that's what I do pretty regularly.

 

Go play your music.

 

When you find out things that are problems, then think of ways to make those not problems.

 

Thinking about a snake is wondering about a solution to a problem you don't have (ie... "our soundguy can't sit in front of the speakers to make changes"). Same thing with reverb and outboard eqs. And pro sound guys who can keep equipment in operation all the time have much different ways of operating that folks with bar bands, so they general have somewhat different equipment at least where I live.

 

Don't go looking for solutions until you have a problem.

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Don't go looking for solutions until you have a problem.

 

Sure, because troubleshooting in front of a live audience is a great way to be asked back. You'll also likely not know what problems even look like as you're on the "other side of the speakers".

 

You can also think all you want about making things "not problems" but limited knowledge and a limited toolbox will limit your ability to correct those problems.

 

 

Look, I'm not saying it's going to be a disaster... At the end of the day it's like this - if the bar sells booze you'll be coming back. If they don't then you won't. If you're a new band and bringing all your friends on your big first nigt then you'll probably be asked back. After 2-3 times the rubber meets the road. You lose the novelty and your friends stop coming in droves. Now you must convert the venue patrons to followers that will either come see you play other venues, or at least make a point of coming out when you're at their watering hole. In contrast, you don't want to be the band that keeps the regulars away, or has them complaining to the staff. That's a sure way of getting the venue to lose your number.

 

So if things get ugly with the sound, assuming you are playing with musicians that aren't there to just listen to themselves on "11", turn it down (the band and the PA). That alone will solve many a problem.

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You can also think all you want about making things "not problems" but limited knowledge and a limited toolbox will limit your ability to correct those problems.

 

I dunno. I play a lot of cheap-ass bar gigs. I like having nice equipment, but for me that's mostly just having a lot of good quality audio and power cables and avoiding putting anything int he PA that I don't have to having the PA. :D

 

Keeping things super simple is usually the right course of action. Like you're totally right that just keeping the pa turned down to a reasonable level will fix many problems.

 

The simpler of a system you have, the less there is to troubleshoot.

 

So I agree with you that limits on knowledge and tools-at-hand can cause problems.

 

All I am saying is that the solution is often to limit the scope of potential problems by removing complexity, when that is possible.

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I do sound for my 5 piece rock band. I am not a professional sound man. I get excellent results. Here's what you need to know:

 

1 - great choice in mixing board

2 - don't bother with effects at this stage of the game

3 - your biggest problem is going to be fighting feedback

4 - your best way to fight feedback is to turn down the guitars and drums

5 - get 3 or 4 more of those RCF 312s to use as monitors

6 - when it comes time for effects, buy a Lexicon MX200 or MX400

7 - slap-back is usually better for enhancing rock vocals than reverb. Both together work great. Reverb makes feedback easier.

8 - before you get effects, you should get 31 channel graphic EQs, one for each monitor

9 - your biggest problem will be fighting feedback

10 - your best way to fight feedback is to turn down the guitars and drums

 

By the way, $800 is way too much for a bar band sound man. $800 sounds like the "go away I don't want this job" price.

 

Wes

 

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I know that it's hard to "turn a drummer down" unless he's a pretty accomplished drummer (or more intelligent than average drummer).

 

If the lead guitarist can't find his "tone" until the amp is blasting 120 db, then have him get a drive pedal or an attenuator.

 

Unless the patrons are using ecstasy, "playing too loud" is the sin that too many bands commit. If the patrons are using ecstasy, then you should have a subwoofer to hammer them with the bass and kick drum (same is true for disco, but nobody but a DJ does that anymore).

 

​We all want to perform. We all want to be asked to play the venue again. The customers want to socialize and dance. You need to have your sound balanced and probably no louder than your practice room. Start low and stay there until somebody sober tells you that you need to turn up or that a particular element isn't coming through. Adjust gently.

 

If you get a chance to get off stage and listen to the band for a song - DO IT. Are all the elements balanced? Do the vocals come through clearly (as the vocalist can make them)? Is anything too dominant in the mix? Is there a particular frequency that needs to be cut or raised? Do you need to take the guitarist's boost pedal off the stage?

 

Appropriate volume and balance are your goals. Many years ago, the PA was the PA and it was used solely for vocals. The Beatles did it that way, Three Dog Night did it that way. It still works. If your guitar and keyboard amps are pointed upwards (preferable at the head of the player), your audience won't have hot spots (and your players can hear themselves better than if they listen with their ankles).

 

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Brand new the Allen and Heath Gl 24 mixer sells for $2000. i got mine for $600 it's in great condition. Trouble is the roadcase that goes with it is $600 new. I would be silly not to protect my investment but $600 road case with casters pretty high investment. Is there a less expensive alternative to a gatorhttp://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/GTourAH240024

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About the mixer... that's a real good example of something that I'd not want to move for a bar gig, with or without a case.

 

I've been using a cheap ass alesis with 8 mic ins for the last 5 years, and that's been plenty for little bar gigs where I just want a couple of acoustic instruments and a couple of vocal mics in the mains, with a monitor aux and a post aux for a little reverb. That mixer cost about $150 used 5 years ago.

 

My system is 2 12" powered speakers, the mixer in a box, a box of cables / mics, and a bag with four mic stands and two speaker stands. I think I have probably done about 150 crappy bar gigs on it over that 5 years. If I am playing with louder folks or larger areas I scrounge up another speaker to use as a monitor, but usually I can get away with just putting the speakers behind the band or just listening to the wash on those speakers.

 

Except for the stands, it fits in the trunk of a honda accord. To me, that is a good design goal. It also doesn't have much that can really go wrong with it, assuming the mixer doesn't die. That's also a good design goal. Most problems can be fixed by moving a mic or a speaker or turning down a guitar amp, which is all common sense stuff.

 

If it were me, I'd sell the A&H mixer and buy something smaller and lighter plus some nice extension cords :D But that's just me.

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I am buying my first monitor today ,a used RCF MK 15.powered monitor , 15 inch woofer used for $229 at Guitar Center with a cover. Sells for at least $600 new. Should work well with the other RCK as FOH speakers. Please stop me if I am buying the wrong monitor.

 

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Holy crap that mixer case weighs a 100 pounds. For the money you wasted on that Allen and Heath board plus the case you could have bought something like a QSC touchmix. The whole thing weighs less than 10 pounds. The reason you got a great deal on that mixer is because anyone with half a clue is moving to digital.

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I am buying my first monitor today ,a used RCF MK 15.powered monitor , 15 inch woofer used for $229 at Guitar Center with a cover. Sells for at least $600 new. Should work well with the other RCK as FOH speakers. Please stop me if I am buying the wrong monitor.

 

Should be fine... plug and play.

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We never did learn if Chord123 is doing sound only or trying to play an instrument and manage sound at the same time.

 

A 24-channel mixer for a 5-piece band playing $400 bar gigs is like using ​Caterpillar D5 as a lawnmower on a 1/4 acre lot. It will work (if you have the right attachments), but it's pretty clumsy - and the lawn doesn't look very pretty with all those tracks.

 

I realize that Chord123's time has nearly run out to swap/sell/buy equipment, but I'd rather have a small 12-channel mixer like a Yamaha MG 12XU.

 

By my count, if you buy the RCF MK15, you should have 3 powered speakers. It ain't pretty, but I'd put one of the 12-inch speakers directly behind the drummer's head - it should serve as the lead singer's monitor as well from that position. Mike the snare drum, so the drummer will hurt himself if he's hitting too hard - steal his earplugs. Put the other speakers on poles slightly in front of the front line.

 

If you wind up using the A&H mixer, look for the parametric EQ and use them on each microphone to knock down the feedback frequency (that's what they're for).

 

Let your lead guitarist know that he'll get more love if he plays gently.

 

I'll repeat my earlier advice, "​Start low and stay there until somebody sober tells you to turn up. Then go gently."

 

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