Making decisions on PA

[Picker]

I'm looking at getting some new PA gear and have mostly settled on the Yamaha DSR series. Currently I'm trying to decide on 112s or 115s. The 112's are smaller and lighter, which is a big advantage and would make them more useful for monitor duty if I need them for that.

 

However, from reading up, I am getting the impression that you really don't want the 12's unless you are using a Sub along with them. I do intend to get subs eventually, but not to start off - mainly because I would rather save up and get something nice than just by a sub I can afford immediately to have it now). Also, i don't want to ALWAYS need the sub, which leads me to think I may be better off with the 15's.

 

So....

 

1. Any thoughts on the 12's vs 15's?

 

2. Subs - Looking at either the Yammie's or EV ZLX at the low end (no pun intended), through RCF 8004AS, on up to Danley (either TH Mini for portability, or TH118 for the gold standard)... Any thoughts?

 

[abzurd]

Not sure how long you need to save up, but the JBL PRX 718XLF sub is well regarded and, for whatever reason, has been on a fire sale a few times recently. The used to MAP for $1399. Currently B&H looks like the only place that has them for $899, but they were that price at a number of vendors a few weeks ago. These are the subs I use and would seemingly go nicely with the DSRs. You can get the DSR112 for around $730, For under $3300 you'd have a spanky little FOH.

[InACanProductions]

Something else to consider while they are on sale.

 

http://www.proaudiostar.com/jbl-prx712.html

 

They have the 718XLF for the same price as B&H

 

http://www.proaudiostar.com/jbl-cbt-70je-1-constant-beamwidth-technology-line-array-extension-2.html

 

The 715s are on sale as well.

[abzurd]

Wow. $400 for the 712s. That's pretty darn good. I own a pair, and they are "just OK" as mains, IMO. They are fine, but the DSRs are better. The thing is, are they double the price better? I use mine as monitors and they do a great job there.

[Pro Sound Guy]

A 15" two way will certainly give you lower frequency response over a 12" two way.

This depends on the applications you want to use the loudspeaker for.

As far as powered subwoofers you might want to look into the new powered Yamaha DXS 18.

This sub has killer reviews and NEXO worked with Yamaha on the design.

 

[Picker]

Interesting. The reviews I saw for dxs sub were kind of mediocre. Mostly, the complaint was they were underpowered. Less power than the tops, which is unusual for a sub.. Maybe I should take another look.

[InACanProductions]

You would assume that, but according to JBL's spec sheet on the PRX712 vs the PRX715, the 12" boxes specs are +/- 10dB = 44.8Hz - 19.6Hz, +/- 3dB = 55.7Hz - 18.2Hz, where the 15" boxes are +/- 10dB = 42.9Hz - 19.5Hz, +/- 3dB = 58.1Hz - 17.2Hz.

 

So while the 15" boxes go lower at -10dB, which IMO is a worthless spec, at -3dB spec the 12"s perform slightly lower.

[wesg]

Question: what kind of act and what kind of coverage? Silent stage, or bass amp?

[Picker]

Shooting for versatility. Am doing an acoustic thing right now (which wouldn't require a sub), but may do full band with bass amp and keyboards where the sub would be more useful. Also may DJ a couple of events where the sub would help.

[Picker]

My main interest is having high quality sound rather than just loud, and versatility to be able to easily cover different types and sizes of events.

[nchangin]

Consider JBL's powered SRX line, 12"s will make a whole lot of noise have lows to rival any good 15", but note you will need an equally powered sub to keep up with them. And from one user of the ZLX line, run as fast as you can, they won't even make good firewood.

[wesg]

Versatility? You want powered 12s IMO. I love mine. I use NX55P for tops, monitors, keyboard amp. I find that by the time I want more than they can provide, I want way more -- so subs are necessary and 15s alone wouldn't cut it. The rare gigs when this happens, I just rent subs, sometimes bigger tops as well.

 

[Picker]

That is what is making this difficult. There are advantages to 12's and also some for 15's. I guess long run I could think about 2 12's, 2 15's and 2 subs. That way I could use different configurations of mains and monitors, but I don't have the funds for that right now.

[wesg]

Which 12s and which 15s are you looking at? One thing for sure, you're better off with quality 12s than lesser quality 15s.

 

Comparing DSR12 to DSR15, you will see that the -3dB point is only 5Hz lower for the 15" speaker and the maximum output level at 1m is only 2dB louder. On paper, anyhow, that's not a big difference for 15 lbs of weight difference. A DSR15 without a sub would certainly sound better than a DSR12, but neither is appropriate without a sub to reinforce a loud rock band. Unless the stage sound carries the low end - in which case, it doesn't matter which you have.

 

Something else to think about: you always need monitors (rehearsal) - you only need FOH for gigs. Renting something for the odd gig is not a big deal.

 

Also, it's really nice having all your speakers the same. When something goes wrong, you have more options.

 

Wes

[OneEng]

The DSR112 is a better (much better) speaker for an acoustic act. IMO these speakers are nearly ideal for that use case.

 

The PRX712m at $400 is a silly good deal; however, to my ears, the DSR112 is a much better sounding speaker. I have A/B'd them on more than one occasion and that was my conclusion (as well as others that were there).

 

I would recommend you go with the DSR112's now. They will cover any acoustic gig you could imagine. They can also handle quite a bit bass guitar all by themselves. I did a gig outdoors (that was supposed to be acoustic) with a full band and miced the bass. It was clear and sounded great even at 150 ft away.

 

[REALITY CHECK]

You aren't going to have a convincing DJ gig without subs..... unless you are playing big band music all night. You aren't going to have a full sound from a kick drum or rumble the floor on the low B of the bass without subs.

 

The PRX718XLF is a crazy good sub (I own 2 of them). They work extremely well with the DSR112 tops (which I also own). If you can find them on sale right now for $800.00, I would pick them up even if you have to borrow some cash to do it. They are an incredible value.

 

On an aside, the new DXS18 is a "band pass" box as opposed to the PRX718XLF which is a "direct radiating" box.

 

The difference is that a band pass box can get louder using the same amount of power and using the same speaker driver. The downside is that .... in the past .... bandpass subs were known as "one-note-wonders" because they tend to emphasize one frequency range more than others.

 

It is my understanding that the new DXS18 is not only loud, but sound as musical as the XLF does. This is from people who own both. I haven't verified this with my own ears, but it is on my list to go do an A/B for sure. If you are out shopping for subs, you might want to get these new subs a listen to.

 

Hope this helps. Good luck and let us know what you end up with!

[Picker]

Thanks guys! I'm pretty sold on the DSR112 for tops. Unfortunately, nobody nearby has any out where I can audition them, but from all I have heard from you and others, they are the go to box.

 

One wrench in the works is the sub. I have an opportunity to purchase some JBL SRX718s subs for about $700 each. These are an unpowered box, so I would also need an amp.... a big one from what I understand...

/

Would these be a better option than the PRX series? With the amp, they would cost more, but would it be a significant upgrade?

 

[nchangin]

SRX passives are great and a step above the PRX series, however, please look into what recones cost on the 718's, when getting used you will never be able to predict how much life is left.

 

Yes you wll need to properly process/power them, consider the SRX828P? around 2k new. Properly powered and processed at no additional charge.

 

Not sure if this is legit but...

 

http://www.proaudiostar.com/jbl-srx828sp-dual-18-powered-subwoofer.html

 

 

[Craig Vecchione]

Not a huge fan of buying used subs, as nchangin states, you really don't know their past. Pay an amount that leaves you enough to recone every driver. Yep....that probably means you can't reach a deal with the seller. But that's fine, because until money changes hands, the problems are his, not yours....

[heath_eld]

That DXS18 looks good on paper. Heavy though. For me 49kg vs 37 is a deal breaker, other things being equal.

 

I'd also check out the RCF (8003 and 8004) and EV ETX offerings if weight isn't an issue for you.

[Bugzie]

If size and weight aren't an issue, you could get a pair of the PRX 718xlf's and a pair of the PRX 735's with careful shopping for the same $3200 But I've always liked 3 ways. But they are BIG and Heavy. Hell the 735's go pretty low without a sub.

[Picker]

Well, I ended up going with the DSR 112 tops. Now I'm sub shopping for something to go with them.

 

Contenders I'm considering.

EV ETX 18SP

JBL SRX 818

JBL PRX 718

QSC KW 181

 

I've heard good things about the ETX and the SRX and am leaning towards one of these two.

 

The JBL PRX has the advantage of being lighter weight and easier to handle solo, as well as being sold at a discount for about 900 each new.

 

QSC I have heard good things about, but I just have a bad impression of QSC speakers.. I'm not entirely sure why this is, but possibly because I was never excited by the tops such as the k12.

 

Higher end ones would be nice, but things such as Danley, EAW or RCF are both expensive and heavy

 

At any rate, any suggestions on what would match well with the DSRs?

 

[nchangin]

HPF Frequency 120Hz(-6dB) 24dB/oct on those DSR's.

 

I know the SRX 818 has a 120 hz setting and using fir filters, would think it would pair up nicely. I don't know what that sub sounds like @ 120 Hz though.....

 

I'm getting a pair next spring, can't wait to spring for them! The other subs you are contemplating I haven't really looked up.......Just a quick peek at your question.....

[bjm362]

This thread drifted off into subs and got away from your original question. I own and have owned a variety of 15s, 12s, 10s and oddly enough even one pair of 8s. Currently I would not take a 12 inch BR speaker to a gig as a main that I did not have subs if at all possible. I much prefer 15s Any advantage in the midrange a 12 might have on paper disappears immediately even turning it up a small amount. Vocals are much more clear when the system can not only reproduce the top and the mids but the lower part of the voice as well. I use them frequently for monitors though. They do not sound as well but don't take up as much space and are usually lighter. My current favorite for gigs small enough for two bass reflex speakers as mains are my Peavey PR-15 Neos. They only handle about 400 watts, but we are talking about gigs that is sufficient for. With the Neos they also only weigh 26 pounds. The do still take up some space. The RX driver and CD horn on top is crystal clear too. Probably one of the best sounding 15 inch two ways out there is the EV SX-500. It weighs a bit more and is even larger but is horn loaded on both drivers,and both horns are asymmetric. Yes there are a few gigs you can get by with 12s....if you have to.