Members wesg Posted February 8, 2016 Members Share Posted February 8, 2016 "Can you turn down my guitar? It's way too loud!" I had a fun but stressful show Saturday night, running sound and lights from stage while playing keys. Small room. I had a chat with the guys ahead of time about trying to keep the stage volume down, so I mic'd the guitar cabs, hoping that they would play quietly, and that I could let the PA do the heavy lifting. Lead guitar player shows up with a new 40W Marshall combo amp in a fairly big cabinet. I kept trying to get him to turn down; at one point, he was still too loud, and told me he literally could barely hear his guitar. I guess this is because he doesn't have ears on the backs of his knees. Then I remembered the mic.....and the fact that he has his own wedge and monitor mix....problem solved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mike M Posted February 8, 2016 Members Share Posted February 8, 2016 My first experience with guitarists "blasting away" was when I got my wireless mic for my sax. This was in the mid 80's and the band in which I played used a powered mixer and no monitors. (The two vocalists in the band blended well.)The band gigged twice a week so I guess we were ok. After I went wireless the leader of the band (chick vocalist) would ask me to "take a walk" and listen to the balance during a tune or two. THAT is when I noticed our guitarist over-powering the group. The leader asked him to turn down - and "of course" he didn't. (He taught guitar at Berklee College of Music thus he "knew" how to play within a group.) Since the guitarist didn't sing the drummer & I decided to put his guitar amp on a cocktail table directly behind him. (We told him that it would improve the balance of the group.)Lo and behold, he lowered his volume as now his sound was ripping HIS head off.. I have learned that there are guitar players and "musicians" that play guitar. A guitar player just blasts away, oblivious to his place in the mix and just wants to hear himself. A musician that plays guitar "listens" and knows his place in the mix... There seem to be many more guitar players than muso's that play guitar... Just my opinion. M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wesg Posted February 8, 2016 Author Members Share Posted February 8, 2016 I honestly think that the natural design of the combo causes - or at least reinforces - this particular problem with guitar players. It's a real mystery to me why this arrangement persists. Do guitarists need to make frequent adjustments? Because placing all the amps in a line at the back of the band would work well from a dispersion POV too. I'm betting our lead guitar player will show up with an amp stand at the next gig, he's a good musician, just loud and his new amp wasn't doing him any favours in that regard. The other guitar player in the band uses one that points his amp up at about a 30 degree angle and it works great. No only can he hear his amp, he is not beaming so hard into the crowd. Your wireless sax rig sounds awesome. Sometimes I think I should get a wireless keytar or something so that I can take more frequent walks out front. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Pro Sound Guy Posted February 9, 2016 Members Share Posted February 9, 2016 The nature of a tube amp is to play it at 11...or so they have been telling me that for 36 years. National acts or Garage acts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members aaronm72 Posted February 9, 2016 Members Share Posted February 9, 2016 Have the guitarist's turn the amps to face the center of the stage "aim them at each other" and see what happens. Had the band Saturday do it and promoted an immediate discussion about turning down. Just puzzles me why more bands these days are not using ear monitors??? That fixes almost all stage volume issues if used correctly. The drummer is usually the only issue at that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wesg Posted February 9, 2016 Author Members Share Posted February 9, 2016 PSG - I was actually waiting for the "it needs to be loud to sound good" response, but it didn't happen. Maybe it's one of those Marshall trans-tube amps? I didn't catch the model number. It DID sound really good, just loud. aaron - That's a creative approach to the problem! As for IEMs, there are two reasons why bands aren't doing this at the small/medium club level. Expense, and logistics. Expense - for a mid-sized club with an installed FOH, this means 5 belt packs, 5 pairs of IEMs, a 22 channel splitter snake, a Behringer X32 and a Behringer S16. Napkin math shows that it would take 13 gigs (about a year) for that the break even, assuming 100% of wages went into the IEM rig. At that scale, it just doesn't make sense. Logistics - for a small club, IEMs pose significant challenges. How do you mix from stage when you're wearing in-ears? How can I, as a keyboard player, judge the volume of my Leslie cabinet when I'm wearing in-ears? In a small club, stage wash carries a significant proportion of the sound, normally the only thing in the PA is vocals, piano, and kick. We create a good mix on stage by listening to each other, and reinforce what doesn't carry with the PA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Voltan Posted February 9, 2016 Members Share Posted February 9, 2016 this is true, in my opinion, of all musical instrument operators... you have players and you have artists. the two are definitely not to be confused. and interestingly enough, its generally the best of the crop that has the least problems with ego. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members aaronm72 Posted February 10, 2016 Members Share Posted February 10, 2016 I get that a lot "expense" is the driver. Please don't take it the wrong way but your over thinking this with the purchases you stated above. You sound like you already have all the gear you need with exception of a split snake when you actually do have a sound guy. Why an X32 and a S16 if your mixing from the stage? How you described your setup and the size venues only makes my point more clear. Again don't take it the wrong way but I bet your audience could care less if is a Marshall, Mesa, Carvin, etc. one of the best bands I ever played in was a group that had guitar and bass rack gear and we wheeled it in 24 space rack with a split snake. Had a 24 channel mixer "analog" at the time racked. All instruments went direct no amps on stage. That band became a buzz not only to the audience but clubs and sound guys were happy/impressed! 10 minute stage strikes at the end of the night. It can be done it is just getting everyone to make the commitment they can function without full stack of crap behind them blasting. That was back in 2004 we were doing that and it just amazes me others never followed? Entire band used IEM's and they were paid for in a few shows as each member bought their own. I think they have as much importance in smaller settings as the big stages. Not saying your doing anything wrong it's just my opinion that there are so many options are out there people are missing. I get it not everyone wants to sound the best as a whole band and are more concerned about themselves, so that's where they spend their money on the next stack of speakers that look cool and are loud. As for mixing from the stage I commend you but am sure you are setting things and moving on back to the keys 98% of the night. Only so much you can do from that position so pulling an ear monitor out every so often is not that complicated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dogoth Posted February 12, 2016 Members Share Posted February 12, 2016 There's two somewhat valid reasons for a guitarist to play really loud to the back of their knees. I'll try and debunk them both. 1) Over driving tubes DOES in fact create some awesome harmonics (this can include over driving the output stage). 2) putting your guitar amp on the floor couples the speaker most effectively with the floor and makes for a boost in low frequencies. Debunking 1) 98% of that great over drive tone can be gotten with good amp modeling (I'm a fan of the Boss GT series but I've heard other good processors as well). Also this "great tone" only happens with an extremely experienced player (IME about 1 in 1000 can really take advantage of it). If you are trying to be part of a band, sacrifice a tiny part of your tone for proper dynamics - the band and the audience will thank you for it. 2) There's not a lot of extremely low frequency information coming from a guitar amp. Yes putting the bottom right on the floor does add some bottom but if it's really necessary, most of that bottom boost can be obtained by different speakers, a different cabinet or some EQ tricks. The GIANT disadvantage of parking it on the floor is that the guitarist really doesn't know how it sounds to the audience. IMHO insisting on this bottom boost is a bit self indulgent and again not conductive to being a team player in a band. Just my .02 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members trevcda Posted February 12, 2016 Members Share Posted February 12, 2016 My favorite "my tone" story: I was having the typical problem with a guitarists amp and suggested tilting it back and point at him so he could hear it better. He said he had tried that and that he didn't like the way it sounded when he did that. I asked him why anyone else would, pointing the place where the audience would be. Then asked him why the microphone I'm trying to use would, pointing to the microphone. Blank stare. And another one: I worked with a guitarist who knew how beamy his Fender "Tinnitus-in-a-box" amp could be and offered to help out the bigger sound picture by turning it around and facing the wall. The problem? It was an open back amp and the "wall" was a glass window. "A" for effort though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted February 12, 2016 Members Share Posted February 12, 2016 My favorite "my tone" story: I was having the typical problem with a guitarists amp and suggested tilting it back and point at him so he could hear it better. He said he had tried that and that he didn't like the way it sounded when he did that. I asked him why anyone else would' date=' pointing the place where the audience would be. Then asked him why the microphone I'm trying to use would, pointing to the microphone. Blank stare.[/quote']Yep, can't fix that kind of stoopid - been there, tried that . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Two of Seven Posted February 14, 2016 Members Share Posted February 14, 2016 ....... one of the best bands I ever played in was a group that had guitar and bass rack gear and we wheeled it in 24 space rack with a split snake. Had a 24 channel mixer "analog" at the time racked. All instruments went direct no amps on stage. That band became a buzz not only to the audience but clubs and sound guys were happy/impressed! 10 minute stage strikes at the end of the night. It can be done it is just getting everyone to make the commitment they can function without full stack of crap behind them blasting. That was back in 2004 we were doing that and it just amazes me others never followed?........ Worked with a band in the mid 90's that did the same thing only without IEMs. Just used a pair of nice dual15/horn side fills for a mini stage monitor PA, E-drums and rackmount modeling amps for guitars and bass. One stereo mix. With cooperation and care about stage position everyone got what they needed and sounded great. Band was very popular for the same reasons...great sound, fast setup/teardown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dogoth Posted February 20, 2016 Members Share Posted February 20, 2016 He! He! Just thought of a joke. The post title is " Things Not Commonly Heard at Bar Gigs" and then a discussion about loud guitarists. One thing not commonly heard is the vocalist over the roar of the guitar . Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Tomm Williams Posted February 22, 2016 Members Share Posted February 22, 2016 I got the wrong impression from the title, I was going to offer: "young lady put your shirt back on" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wesg Posted February 22, 2016 Author Members Share Posted February 22, 2016 Mr. Knobs, is that you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members OneEng Posted February 26, 2016 Members Share Posted February 26, 2016 Have the guitarist's turn the amps to face the center of the stage "aim them at each other" and see what happens. Had the band Saturday do it and promoted an immediate discussion about turning down. Just puzzles me why more bands these days are not using ear monitors??? That fixes almost all stage volume issues if used correctly. The drummer is usually the only issue at that point. Which is why God invented eDrums Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dogoth Posted February 27, 2016 Members Share Posted February 27, 2016 Which is why God invented eDrums Oh Please. Don't get me started!!! As a drummer I'm torn between two worlds (maybe a bit like those guitarists and their "tone" . When you find me an E-drum kit that responds and sounds like a real drum, I'll buy one. I Have thought many times about buying one (a decent setup can cost nearly as much as a good real kit) but even a mid level set is easier to make music with (there are so many complex yet subtle tones that just are left out of the electronic samples). As an audio guy I abhor loud instruments BUT I'll take a real horn section over a bunch of samples any day. Why? Because it sounds better! I do my best to make my acoustic drums quiet without sucking the life & tone out of them. In the end it's a compromise but at this point IMHO one that still trumps an all electronic kit. I understand that for most cases a sampled kit is just fine (good enough for R&R kind of thinking) but I'm not there yet. Thanks for letting me rant . Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dbMontana Posted February 29, 2016 Members Share Posted February 29, 2016 Oh Please. Don't get me started!!! As a drummer I'm torn between two worlds (maybe a bit like those guitarists and their "tone" . When you find me an E-drum kit that responds and sounds like a real drum, I'll buy one. I Have thought many times about buying one (a decent setup can cost nearly as much as a good real kit) but even a mid level set is easier to make music with (there are so many complex yet subtle tones that just are left out of the electronic samples). As an audio guy I abhor loud instruments BUT I'll take a real horn section over a bunch of samples any day. Why? Because it sounds better! I do my best to make my acoustic drums quiet without sucking the life & tone out of them. In the end it's a compromise but at this point IMHO one that still trumps an all electronic kit. I understand that for most cases a sampled kit is just fine (good enough for R&R kind of thinking) but I'm not there yet. Thanks for letting me rant . Cheers JR, I don't remember. Do you use IEMs? Would that make any difference? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dogoth Posted March 1, 2016 Members Share Posted March 1, 2016 JR, I don't remember. Do you use IEMs? Would that make any difference? No. The band I play in rarely gigs (as I have a regular job doing audio on nearly every weekend, I'm the fly in the ointment . That being the case we've never thought it was worth micing every instrument. I'm a fan of IEMs only if they are mixed to perfection AND every band member is dynamically accurate every time. Self mixing is great but this involves a cost & hassle that no one is willing to take on in a band that generates no money. I keep hoping to be able to retire soon and allow the band to gig (I'll even go out and drum up the gigs (small pun there ). We (I) might even invest in some better P.A. gear. Back to drum volume though..... One of the rooms I mix frequently is EXTREMELY LIVE! Even with the drummer behind a tall plexi shield, about 50% of the time I have no snare in the mix. I never use OH mics and still the drums are very often the instrument I must "mix up to". Even working this way the mix is often well over the OSHA spec (I sometimes wear ear plugs). Does a snare need to be break neck loud to sound good? I think not but obviously some guys do. In this case E-Drums are nice to mix BUT still don't sound quite as good as the real thing. It probably satisfies most of the audience but not me. These are the reasons I've not sprung for an electronic kit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mshifflett Posted March 3, 2016 Members Share Posted March 3, 2016 Have the guitarist's turn the amps to face the center of the stage "aim them at each other" and see what happens. That's how we did it for years. Works great most of the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mshifflett Posted March 3, 2016 Members Share Posted March 3, 2016 In this case E-Drums are nice to mix BUT still don't sound quite as good as the real thing. It probably satisfies most of the audience but not me. These are the reasons I've not sprung for an electronic kit. I totally agree with this. It's much like a tube amp really. Sure a tube amp has a particular sound but it also has a very particular feel that most modelers just cannot emulate. And let's face it, if you aren't feeling it then you probably aren't going to put your heart in to what you are playing. I am by no means condoning loud amps and overpowering drums but I have been on both sides of the microphone too so I know there is a feeling that you strive for as a musician. All of the modelers and e-drums are nice in a way I guess but there is just something lacking. I do way more mixing than playing these days and we do mostly outdoor festivals. We were mixing one a couple of years ago and one of the openers were a bunch of really talented people. They had e-drums and no amps on stage, including the bass as well. They played flawlessly but there was just something stale and lacking about their whole set. The next band came on were not nearly as talented but they used real drums and tube amps and knew how to control volume. They just sounded more pleasing in a way. Maybe that was the musician in me coming out but maybe not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members StratGuy22 Posted March 3, 2016 Members Share Posted March 3, 2016 He! He! Just thought of a joke. The post title is " Things Not Commonly Heard at Bar Gigs" and then a discussion about loud guitarists. One thing not commonly heard is the vocalist over the roar of the guitar . Cheers For me, as a band guy and a sound guy, vocals are always the #1 priority. Most times the bands I provode for are pretty good with their stage volume. The annoying ones are the ones who are too loud but it's ok, because there wearing earplugs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dogoth Posted March 5, 2016 Members Share Posted March 5, 2016 For me, as a band guy and a sound guy, vocals are always the #1 priority. Most times the bands I provode for are pretty good with their stage volume. The annoying ones are the ones who are too loud but it's ok, because there wearing earplugs. Did a monitor gig recently for a Motown review show. the musical director/drummer wanted stupid loud monitors, kept calling out freqs (which I mostly ignored) and did it all with shooters muffs on. Evidently he'd produced a few hit songs. I wonder if he mixed them with hearing protection . I work a lot in this country bar with HORRIBLE acoustics (very live). Sometimes the crowd (without music) is over the OSHA spec. When It gets that loud, I mix with ear plugs (I'll take them out briefly if it's something that deviates from the normal show or requires special attention). I've thought about reporting this to OSHA (for the sake of the other workers (servers, bartenders, security) that have to put up with it) but in the end the owners would just close the place down and cost us all a job. Earplugs for me please . Not my favorite way to work though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wesg Posted March 7, 2016 Author Members Share Posted March 7, 2016 Last Saturday's gig was pretty good with respect to stage volume. It was a bigger show with a house sound guy, which is great because I don't have mix, run lights, or haul PA. YAY!!! Just schlep my giant keyboard rig. Lead guitar player showed up with the new loud amp again; but this time he had an amp stand and aimed it at his head! Yeah! So, we sound checked and he's LOUD, man, like LOUD. Sound system operator is telling the guitar player that he's louder than the PA, to no avail, so moves on to finish the rest of the band. I took the guitar player aside right after sound check, and told him, "Hey - when he says you're louder than the PA, it's because he's trying to get you to turn down". Response? "Oh! I couldn't hear him!" LOL - he turned down and stage levels were great the rest of the night. Sometimes you just need to be sure everybody's on the same page! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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