Members Stingray5 Posted September 29, 2015 Members Share Posted September 29, 2015 I'm not sure how to describe this problem although I have experienced it before___ Example an acoustic guitar and Bass were doing this every time we would hit a C so I ask him to turn down the low end a little and it fixed the problem same thing happened with My Bass and a keyboard player using his amp, same thing turned down his low end shelving pot and all was good. this time I was running sound Friday and Saturday different bands and I had this problem raise its ugly head, it seems when I'm running all the instruments in the monitors even the lead guitar player although he is going through his amp which is loud by it's self but wants it way up in his monitor. If I was able to do a sound check I could probably Isolate the culprit, usually by the time the band gets there is no time for such a luxury Sorry I hope i'm making sense? If not I'll try to do a better job explaining! How do you trace this on the fly? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Tomm Williams Posted September 29, 2015 Members Share Posted September 29, 2015 Sorry but I've read your post three times and I'm not sure what your situation is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members nchangin Posted September 29, 2015 Members Share Posted September 29, 2015 as in feedback "roaring sound"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Stingray5 Posted September 30, 2015 Author Members Share Posted September 30, 2015 I'm sorry I'm not clear. I've had this happen with me on Bass and a keyboard player hitting the same low note on his keys, it kind of builds almost like a over tone or a short groaning sound. Sorry I wish I could give a better description. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Tomm Williams Posted September 30, 2015 Members Share Posted September 30, 2015 Where is it coming from? Are you saying your amp cabs are rumbling or the stage or ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shaster Posted September 30, 2015 Members Share Posted September 30, 2015 So there's a low end, low mid frequency about to take off and the bass and/or keyboards push it over the edge? Is this what you are saying? If it's happening on one or more acts, it sounds like it's your system and/or the room. If you've got a chart of notes to frequencies, or can pick them out, then you could try carving some out of your system and carving some out of the instruments themselves (like you did). I imagine it would be easier to tune the PA than to "tune" each band. It will depend on what else is going on with the room and expectations of low end volume. As far as monitors go, you can get rid of those frequencies. You shouldn't need much low end in the monitors - except for the drummer's kick. BTW if you're putting guitar in the monitors, are these venues really big, or are you trying to get your guitar player to turn down? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members trevcda Posted September 30, 2015 Members Share Posted September 30, 2015 As far as monitors go, you can get rid of those frequencies. You shouldn't need much low end in the monitors - except for the drummer's kick. Yep. Unless the root issue is with the source, high pass your monitors (which you should already be doing), either at the monitor board, at the eq (if it's so equipped), or at the amp (if it has DSP built in). Problem solved or at least alleviated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Stingray5 Posted October 1, 2015 Author Members Share Posted October 1, 2015 Shaster that's what I'm saying more of a build up coming off there personal amps, if it was there monitor or mains I can usually lock on it, eq it out but when it's there amps on stage I have a hard time seeing who it is, now if I have time to do a sound check I can have them stop and hit that specific key and have one of them reduce let's say maybe there 80hz shelving pot and that would take care of it but normally by the time the band gets there I have to dial them in on the first song which is pretty easy 99.9% of the time, the 1% ugh! I wish I was better at explaining things when typing, it's a struggle I'll keep trying to do better. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Tomm Williams Posted October 1, 2015 Members Share Posted October 1, 2015 So this is isolated to two specific amps ? What are they ? How are they positioned on stage, elevated, etc... Are they mic'd ?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Tomm Williams Posted October 1, 2015 Members Share Posted October 1, 2015 I just thought of one thing, kind of a shot in the dark but this actually happened to me about two months ago. I had a guitarist with an older Fender Twin that the reverb tank was not properly isolated. This combined with a wooden stage would cause the tank to shake like crazy on certain notes and it sounded a bit like what youre talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shaster Posted October 2, 2015 Members Share Posted October 2, 2015 So there are certain frequencies that are unusually predominant, that are emanating from the performers stage gear. I'm assuming we're talking about one or two venues, and not every one that you work at. If it's the latter, something could be up with your PA, but if it's a particular problem venue then yes, I've seen it happen. I've performed at a local casino for many years. The stage sound varies from lousy to terrible, depending on what foolish renos the owners decide to foist upon the room. The bass sound in particular just howls somewhere around the low mid region. The techs for the room finally came up with having every bass player lift their cabinets off the ground, and slightly forward of the back wall. This tiny adjustment makes a world of difference. Doubtful the above example will work in your case, but as Tomm was suggesting, placement of cabs can make a difference. Don't aim a guitar cab at a vocal mic, or have the bass amp bleeding into your kick mic... An RTA on your phone could be handy, also, have a note to frequency chart on hand for speedy adjustments (paper or digital). Here's an example of a frequency to note chart, but you're welcome to search for better ones - might even be one in the Live Sound sticky. http://www.phy.mtu.edu/~suits/notefreqs.html BTW if it's just their gear, then amp shields and so on could help. If it's their gear interacting with the room, then it's still my opinion that you could try and reduce (at your discretion) the frequencies in question. After all, if those frequencies are a problem in one part of the stage, sending those problems to other parts of the stage, via monitors and FOH wash, will add to "the roar". Oh yes, do you have a talk back mic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Unalaska Posted October 3, 2015 Members Share Posted October 3, 2015 What's going on is the system isn't tuned to the room. Could be a deployment issue too, bad speaker placement. Whatever it is there is a lot of low frequency information on the stage area. Solution could involve a 31 band eq on FOH and each monitor mix or a good parametric (onboard a digital mixer). id also suggest monitors for vocals only, keep amp'd instruments out of the mix. Use good quality mics, 58 or better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Stingray5 Posted October 3, 2015 Author Members Share Posted October 3, 2015 Thanks all for the suggestions! The RTA app sounds interesting, I have a Drive rack, think I should use it? to be honest the front house sounds great it's the stage build up that I get, it's only happened around 2 times in the last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shaster Posted October 3, 2015 Members Share Posted October 3, 2015 Stingray5, I am assuming you are using 31 or 15 band EQ's on your mains and monitors - is that correct? I am also assuming that you ring out the monitors and FOH - is that correct? If you've truly tuned and rung out the PA and this is only a problem that occurs on stage, then try your best to deal with the offenders during the first break. If it's only for a set, I guess you've got to grin and bear it. Or you could take on the role of the crusty tech, who comes up during the set and says turn the F down... As for a Driverack, it can create more problems than it can fix (if used incorrectly) and there are several threads as to why a Driverack isn't the be all and end all for tuning a PA. They are also not the speediest to navigate. Just the other day, I had to dump 400hz (Yorkville product) and scrolling through the albeit limited menu to grab 400 (without my reading glasses) took much longer than grabbing an EQ slider. Nothing wrong with Driveracks though. What have you got? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Stingray5 Posted October 4, 2015 Author Members Share Posted October 4, 2015 Thanks Shaster. I do ring out the monitors but nothing on the mains, they are JBL 625 powered speakers. I haven't had a problem with the mains so far, constant raves on how good the front house sounds. It's the stage amps and over the top loud monitors that gives me fits. Each time I get to the club, at least an hour before the band arrives and set the monitors, at a volume that is louder then anyone would want you would think? but there are some that want guitar or vocals so loud that I have to take them completely out of the mains. Sometimes the vocal is so loud in the lead vocals monitor, that I have to either raise the mains up where everyone would be running for cover, or take them completely out of the mains. The drive rack is a DBX PX. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Tomm Williams Posted October 4, 2015 Members Share Posted October 4, 2015 How many seperate mixes are you running? Is this just one band you have issues with ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Stingray5 Posted October 5, 2015 Author Members Share Posted October 5, 2015 4 separate monitor mixes and 2 bands that I noticed the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wesg Posted October 5, 2015 Members Share Posted October 5, 2015 You might be able to get a few more dB of GBF by using a feedback eliminator to notch out room modes more aggressively than you can get away with using a 31ch GEQ. An automatic feedback eliminator is nothing more than a parametric equalizer with a narrow Q than notches out frequencies based on hearing feedback (pure sine tones) rather than knob-twisting. The DriveRack PX has two channels of AFS which might do the trick. Use the narrowest filter it will do, I think it's called "Music". I like the Sabine units (FBX1200, FBX2400), and prefer to configure my units for 3 fixed filters with the remaining filters floating (Don Boomer's advice). Then, in a totally quiet and set-up room, bring the level of each microphone up gradually until it feeds back, and then let the eliminator notch that frequency out. This needs to be done every day, as the frequencies change based on minor changes in equipment position, air pressure, temperature, etc. After this, I like to walk around the room with the mics turned up about 5dB higher than performance levels, shout into the mics, and clap. The idea is to excite the room into feeding back, and let the eliminator cut that mode. The more cuts you get the eliminator to make, the louder you can turn up -- and the more frequencies will be missing from your signal. The best way to run automatic feedback elimination is as a channel insert, one eliminator per squeaky microphone. You can also run it on a per-monitor-send basis, but the results will not be as good (although it won't affect the FOH mix at all that way). If you use it on a full monitor mix, guitar feedback and certain keyboard patches will fool the eliminators into making too many cuts, which can decimate your monitor EQ, leaving you with very dull-sounding monitors at the end of the night. Do not buy the Behringer DSP1100 for this task. I find it vastly inferior to the Sabine units. I have no experience with the newer Behringer products. I have found the TC Helicon VoiceCorrect XT to also have pretty good feedback elimination, but the algorithm is somewhat limited. The DRPX has two choices for AFS duration, one is temporary, one is permanent. You'll want permanent if you're picking off room modes. When I use DRPX AFS it is just to manage idiots who point the mic at a speaker. Note that using automatic feedback elimination is a two-edged sword. Yes, you can eke out a bit more gain before feedback, but you will probably not get to the feedback-free point if you are doing this. Using one also affects your noise floor, and incorrect use can ruin your mix. Not a magic bullet, but possibly a helpful tool if you are right on the edge. Wes PS: the best advice I can offer is to tell the bands to play to the room! Turning down will sound better every time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Tomm Williams Posted October 6, 2015 Members Share Posted October 6, 2015 I think the only way you're going to get to the bottom of this is with a methodical sound check. Somewhere there is a common denominator that hasn't been addressed. Stage discipline and cooperation will be essential, if these bands can't do that, you're wasting your time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shaster Posted October 6, 2015 Members Share Posted October 6, 2015 Thanks Shaster. I do ring out the monitors but nothing on the mains' date=' they are JBL 625 powered speakers. I haven't had a problem with the mains so far, constant raves on how good the front house sounds. It's the stage amps and over the top loud monitors that gives me fits. Each time I get to the club, at least an hour before the band arrives and set the monitors, at a volume that is louder then anyone would want you would think? but there are some that want guitar or vocals so loud that I have to take them completely out of the mains. Sometimes the vocal is so loud in the lead vocals monitor, that I have to either raise the mains up where everyone would be running for cover, or take them completely out of the mains. The drive rack is a DBX PX. [/quote'] Okay... now we are getting to the heart of the matter. If the above is true, and I'm not doubting you, then it sounds more like a musician problem, than a sound problem. You will have to learn one of the hardest things a tech can learn - how to be a jerk, without permanently pissing everyone off (or getting fired). Might have to practice looking mean in the mirror, working out, growing a badass mustache... I'm joking (kind of) but really, the club is the circus, you're the ring master, and the musicians are the animals (no offense to anyone, I'm a muso myself). If the vocals are so loud in the monitors that you sometimes have to pull them from the mains, then you are not mixing, you're just doing triage and damage control. No amount of fancy gadgetry can make up for the fact that things are just horribly wrong. You have to gain control of the situation somehow - not being there I can't tell you exactly how, but I can say that you need to be supportive but firm. In charge but obviously part of the team. Explain to the musicians the consequences of their actions. Create some kind of a "we're all in this together" kind of vibe. Learn the word no - or learn how to be convincing when you say "sorry that's all the volume I can get". Or you could do as a tech in my area does to me when I walk into "his" club with my guitar amp. Before even saying hello, he looks at my amp, then looks up at me with a stern gaze and says "not too *#$%ing loud". Kind of sets his expectations right off the bat! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Stingray5 Posted October 7, 2015 Author Members Share Posted October 7, 2015 Shaster you are right. But this is what they say I'm deaf in my one ear so I say turn the amps down and also the drummer needs to use hotrods or play quiete and that last about 3 songs then off to the races we go! I have decided that after 3 warnings they won't be back. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wesg Posted October 7, 2015 Members Share Posted October 7, 2015 What size club do you play that requires the drummer to use HotRods to play at an acceptable volume? Is your club a live music venue, or is the band providing background music? I play a couple of 100-cap rooms with a drummer who uses an acoustic kit and real sticks (7As, I think). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Stingray5 Posted October 7, 2015 Author Members Share Posted October 7, 2015 I Don't play there Wesg I run sound there have been for about a year. to say the room is live is putting it mildly Glass behind the stage hard flooring ,walls and Celing the place holds about a 100 people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wesg Posted October 7, 2015 Members Share Posted October 7, 2015 No reason a decent drummer can't use sticks in 100-cap room. If the room is as live as you describe, you will definitely need to keep an eye on stage volume, or you will have craploads of mud in your mix. Tell the bands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members nchangin Posted October 8, 2015 Members Share Posted October 8, 2015 the club is the circus, you're the ring master, and the musicians are the animals Quote of the year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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