Members electrohippy Posted August 17, 2015 Members Share Posted August 17, 2015 I'm not sure what to call it so I'm having a hard time searching (sorry, relative n00b over here...). Can one reasonably employ a system of small speakers placed at ceiling level and distributed around the room, plus a subwoofer, instead of the classic "two 15s on sticks" PA system for small venue live sound reinforcement with vocals and mic'd acoustic instruments...or will it sound like crap or feed back really easily or something? The goal is to get more even SPLs at various points in the room because it's too small for the 15s we have to work well without blasting people in the front. Even if the level is low, the speakers are just too close to the crowd, and are too large to be flown gracefully in the room. I'm not sure what SPL we are shooting for, but I do know that if it gets too loud in there, the all-wood panel room becomes a sound-mire low-end mud fest, so we try to keep the bands' back line level in check and overall volumes low. The boss also wants something that is installed, sounds really good (even for pre-recorded "bar music" or full-house DJ use), but doesn't detract too much from the old time historic feeling of the place (i.e. something reasonably small and inobtrusive, but flown speakers is acceptable). We have a budget, probably around $5,000 - $8,000 or a bit more if I sweet talk 'em (including mains amps, outboard gear and a 16 channel board, two new floor monitors and related amps, plus some new mics and stands, and some cables and stuff). At first glance, I'm considering something like the Community DA6 Architectural Surface Mount speakers (linked below), or maybe something in the JBL Control line, but that's arbitrary, cursory, and uninformed, so any suggestions are welcome (I haven't priced anything yet). Is this a crazy idea? If so, can you sound gurus help me tweak it to make it more sane? THANKS IN ADVANCE!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members electrohippy Posted August 17, 2015 Author Members Share Posted August 17, 2015 http://www.communitypro.com/productlist/460-distributed-design-da6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Tomm Williams Posted August 17, 2015 Members Share Posted August 17, 2015 There's more to this than just mounting numerous speakers, time delay will be a factor as well. You would be smart to hire a knowledgeable sound contractor to do this correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members electrohippy Posted August 17, 2015 Author Members Share Posted August 17, 2015 Hey thanks for the reply! I know I'm no expert on actual system design and sound theory, and I'm also keenly interested in expanding my knowledge on the subject, which is why I'm posting here. Yes, we will eventually have a proper sound contractor doing the design and installation, but right now I'm tasked with exploring options and the feasibility of the basic idea, and approximate cost (and learning!). I mean, will it work, or will it be an expensive nightmare of feedback issues and delay overlap? I did consider the time delay issue, but because of the way the room is laid out (the "stage" is in one corner, and the "dance area" is really small), I don't know how much of a factor it's going to be. I found a chart that started with the first calculated delay at 17.9 miliseconds for 20 feet. The room is only 28 feet, 10 inches front to back, and narrower left to right. The bands set up in one corner, diagonal to the bar, so its not even like they are playing to the full diagonal of the whole room, only like 3/4 of it or something. Plus, there's a half-wall in the middle of the room with bar seating along it, so the area is not totally open for patrons to stand, so people are pushed close to the "stage." I don't have full measurements yet, either. Maybe we just need to "split" our two 15s into four 10s in parallel (2 per side), flown at ceiling level, keep our current 1000W amp, and maybe add a sub if we think we need it. It's just that the shape of the area is pretty weird so I thought maybe smaller speakers covering less area each might be best... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Pro Sound Guy Posted August 17, 2015 Members Share Posted August 17, 2015 Posting on a forum on a "how to" for an installed system is probably not your best bet. You seem to be in over your head on this project. You might want to think about simply learning "how to" by reading on the world wide web or hiring out a pro install company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted August 17, 2015 CMS Author Share Posted August 17, 2015 That's a very small room. Any pair of good speakers and a sub will cover it. If you're too loud near the stage, you're also too loud everywhere else, given the room size. A single or pair of Bose systems would handle FOH and the monitor duties within your budget and won't require a contractor or installation. The line-array design reduces the tendency for people to be blasted up front. Bose used to offer a money-back guarantee, so you can try the system and decide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members electrohippy Posted August 17, 2015 Author Members Share Posted August 17, 2015 @Pro Sound Guy: Thanks for the "suggestion," but this is not a "how to" question, it's (a) a basic question about feasibility of a proposed system, and (b) request for recommendations and input on that particular subject. The rest of my original post is background info so the question is not asked in a vacuum. I own my own system and have been mixing bands with standard portable 2 mains and subs-type systems on and off since the 90s, and now I'm employed in the industry and my boss is asking me to make recommendations, so I'm asking around. This isn't my first rodeo, but I'm not as knowledgeable as people on this forum as far as what is out there and what other places are doing in the realm of distributed audio systems (if anything). That's why I'm posting. In case you didn't get what I'm asking, the basic questions are: 1. will distributed audio like the systems I mentioned function for live sound reinforcement in a small room or will they sound terrible and/or be too much of a hassle to deal with, and2. if the basic idea is solid, what do people recommend hardware-wise (so I can look into about how much it will cost).3. Oh, and is there a technical term for the system I'm proposing (aside from "installed" which is ambiguous or "distributed" which usually applies to Walmart's installed Muzak system, as far as I can tell). I already qualified my questioning by stating that I am searching for knowledge, so if you don't know anything about what I'm asking (or are unwilling to share), why even post? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members electrohippy Posted August 17, 2015 Author Members Share Posted August 17, 2015 @Craig Vecchione: Thank you for a constructive post! So then, is the term I'm looking for "line-array design," as opposed to "distributed sound?" I always associated line-array with a vertical stack that's fanned out and flown. I'm talking about small speakers, like 8" woofers with small horns, placed along the walls at ceiling level every 10 feet or whatever, plus a sub to bring the low end. Knowing the right term will help at least from a searching for more knowledge standpoint! The thing about the room is that the crowd is forced to literally stand within a few feet of the mains for the most part because of where the half-wall is. If the PA levels are low enough for those standing right there, it can't compete with the back line farther back in the room. If it's louder so that the rest of the space can hear things clearly, those in front are deafened, again because of the way people in the room have to stand relative to the half-wall. The building is historic, so the half-wall will probably have to stay. Getting the sound up off stands and up to ceiling level (which is not even that high to begin with) is what I proposed as a "right away solution," but the boss (new owner) has her "vision" of a "hidden sound system," and she doesn't want to fly the 15s, so I'm seeing what the options are. And to start, the 15s we have were just too big for the room to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dedmeet Posted August 17, 2015 Members Share Posted August 17, 2015 Electrohippy, Kudos to you for seeking information and asking questions, but please allow me to suggest another approach to this issue: first, define your target, then think about solutions. It pays to be very specific about what you want to accomplish so that you can choose a solution to match. You don't pick a tool and hope it will do the job; you define the job and then select the right tool. So, some questions that may help us help you are:1. Can you give us a map or sketch of the room? Some pics would be nice. What is the ceiling height?2. What equipment are you using now and how is it connected and deployed?3. What kind of volume levels do you need in each part of the venue?4. Are you a certified rigger? A few comments so far:- Don't bother searching for or digging into line arrays. The Bose is not really a line array and a true one would be a terrible solution for your room.- On first blush, this size room strikes me as a great candidate for 1-2 subs in the corner and 1-2 tops properly flown horizontally downstage, but that is a SWAG based on little information and more than a few assumptions.- Consider hiring a audio consultant to spec your system and have any flown hardware installed by a certified rigger. Good luck and keep us posted! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BillESC Posted August 17, 2015 Members Share Posted August 17, 2015 A 70v distributed system can accomplish what you want. Please provide the rooms dimensions, ceiling height and composition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted August 17, 2015 CMS Author Share Posted August 17, 2015 @Craig Vecchione: Thank you for a constructive post! So then, is the term I'm looking for "line-array design," as opposed to "distributed sound?" I always associated line-array with a vertical stack that's fanned out and flown. I'm talking about small speakers, like 8" woofers with small horns, placed along the walls at ceiling level every 10 feet or whatever, plus a sub to bring the low end. Knowing the right term will help at least from a searching for more knowledge standpoint! The thing about the room is that the crowd is forced to literally stand within a few feet of the mains for the most part because of where the half-wall is. If the PA levels are low enough for those standing right there, it can't compete with the back line farther back in the room. If it's louder so that the rest of the space can hear things clearly, those in front are deafened, again because of the way people in the room have to stand relative to the half-wall. The building is historic, so the half-wall will probably have to stay. Getting the sound up off stands and up to ceiling level (which is not even that high to begin with) is what I proposed as a "right away solution," but the boss (new owner) has her "vision" of a "hidden sound system," and she doesn't want to fly the 15s, so I'm seeing what the options are. And to start, the 15s we have were just too big for the room to begin with. No, a line array and a distributed system are two different concepts. Given the historic building and the budget, I'm thinking that an installed system may be too expensive, and there might be issues with the ability/permission to start hacking into walls and ceilings to install speakers and run wiring to them. The wood walls you mentioned might make fishing wire an expensive challenge. You can't just make a hole and patch the plaster or drywall, so options for access are much more limited unless it's possible to remove wall panels without damage and replace when the wiring is done. Time = money. Therefore I thought it might be wise to consider non-invasive options. 1) If you have to reduce the PA volume because the audience is close, then you obviously have to reduce the backline volume. That will balance the mix. It involves the cooperation of the band(s), but incentives (getting called back for future gigs) usually work okay. This simple tactic may solve most of your problems. Smaller mid-highs, even as small as 10" or 8" might be all you need, along with one or maybe two small subs. 2) The Bose and other short line arrays are a sort of "line source" as opposed to a conventional box speaker being almost a "point source". A line source produces a given volume of sound just as a point source, but the sound is distributed along a larger (longer) area, so it's not as "concentrated" in any one area of space. This has the effect of shaping how the sound disperses a bit, and it also reduces the chance of feedback a bit. That's why these systems can often be placed behind the performers and act as both monitors and mains. I'd try an option like one of these first. Remember, once an installed system is in place, you can't move speakers around if it doesn't work out. You can adjust levels individually, but that's all. It's also wise to consider that not all patrons may want to listen to the band all night..they may want to chat, and if the level is the same everywhere, they'll go somewhere else...away from the venue's money-maker...the bar. I'd also like to address the issue of the Bose not being a "true" line array. It is indeed a line array, but as I've mentioned, it's a "short" array. The longer an array, the lower the frequency it begins to 'act' like an array. For our purposes here, the Bose is absolutely fine. We're not seeking specific pattern control. We just want an unobtrusive system that takes little space and sounds good, and can handle a small room. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members StratGuy22 Posted August 17, 2015 Members Share Posted August 17, 2015 Do they need sound to the back of the room. Keep the music at the stage for the dancers, and further back people can talk. You mention that the stage volume throws further than the PA. Again, turning down the stage volume might bring it all together vs trying to cover the whole place with sound... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members trevcda Posted August 17, 2015 Members Share Posted August 17, 2015 First thing I would do is get the stage out of the corner. Having a band in the corner is like cupping your hands around your mouth to yell at somebody. Not only is it going to make it louder, it may also reinforce many frequencies that may not be conducive to good sound. And not to be misogynistic, but when you said "she" when referring to the boss, I groaned a little. Not that there aren't a lot of women that understand sound and men that don't, but anyone who is hearing with their eyes is off to a bad start. Bill is right in that you can use a 70V distributed system to reinforce the sound, but what you're reinforcing is the sound coming from the stage and you're going to need appropriate DSP to do it, considering you've named live music, background bar music and DJ as your sources. Personally I think conventional speakers (flown or on trees) with sub(s) is going to be the best solution for a room of this size. If she wants something that doesn't look like the normal speakers, the Bose L1 system or the Renkus Heinz IC Live might be viable alternatives. The soon to be released Bose F1 may be something else to think about as well. The last two suggestions are purported to have excellent steering capabilities to keep the sound on the audience and not the walls and ceiling. A twenty eight foot room shouldn't need a distributed audio system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted August 17, 2015 Members Share Posted August 17, 2015 That's a very, very small room to try to do distributed audio in. I would not consider it for my clients because I know that they are likely to be unhappy with the results. Unhappy clients are not something I strive for. By the time you figure out the positions, the delay offsets and then figure in the localization vectors, the solution looks worse and worse all the time. All of the stages I work on are bigger than this room... to put it into perspective. A single set of speakers, mounted maybe 8' high tilted down are going to give you the best compromise, and if you shadow the front area a little, you might please those folks as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members electrohippy Posted August 17, 2015 Author Members Share Posted August 17, 2015 Hey, thanks to all for the great suggestions and info! I will have to take a bit of time to digest them and reply. Quickly, yes general volumes need to be controlled, and I agree that the "not invited back" scenario will have to be implemented. I've been trying reason: "it will sound like sh*t if you keep turning up...", but that only works for like 2 songs. I've also tried the "if you turn up I can't match the back line due to feedback in this room," but even that has mixed results. I get regular complaints from the bands' friends to "turn up the vocals" by about song 3 every set. I have to then explain that it's the bands fault, and that never goes over well... Maybe what we need to invest in is an SPL-activated shock collar system...Wait, I'm patenting that!! I have attached an almost-to-scale room layout to help the conversation. Purple items in the pic can be moved, but have to fit somewhere in the room. The stage is not built-in, it's movable (and not even made yet), so that could change if needed. Ceilings are maybe 8 or 9 foot, the whole place is wood paneled: walls, ceiling, and hardwood floors. Flickr: Honestly, the place is too small for what the new owner wants to do, but she's asked me to get as close to her "vision" as possible, so I have a duty to do the best with what I've got. Thank you all for helping me learn and grow! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dookietwo Posted August 17, 2015 Members Share Posted August 17, 2015 Too bad you couldn't fly your 2 speakers in the center, on their sides, horns together pointed down some. ( if it will work via their design ). If not couldn't you just turn down the one on the Stage Right side? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted August 18, 2015 Members Share Posted August 18, 2015 Drop the volume a little in the stage right speaker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members electrohippy Posted August 18, 2015 Author Members Share Posted August 18, 2015 Thanks Horse, but at this point, that won't work either. Our Yamaha EMX512SC powered mixer has no independent volume controls per side, or the ability to pan. If we get a completely new system, we will have the option, but then it will be almost a moot point because we are looking for something smaller and flown anyway... It will help though, so when we get this worked out, I'll follow the suggestion. I like the idea you had of just using some smaller flown tops, and then I'd add biamping with a sub. To save cost, I am considering using our powered mixer as a power amp. It can be set up to use one 500W side as mains and the other as monitors. The tops would get pushed by the mains side, and we could get a 400W sub after a crossover on the monitor side. Then all we have to do is pick speakers, a new mixer, and an XO, and get those buggers mounted (and get the other stuff on the list). Anyone know of some quality 8" or 10" tops that are designed be flown horizontally and fall in the 250W range? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members electrohippy Posted August 18, 2015 Author Members Share Posted August 18, 2015 How about these as tops: http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/installed-sound/control-contractor-series/control-29av-1#Overview complemented by this as a sub: http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/installed-sound/control-contractor-series/control-sb210 with our existing 500W x 2 amp? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members trevcda Posted August 18, 2015 Members Share Posted August 18, 2015 We have a budget, probably around $5,000 - $8,000 or a bit more if I sweet talk 'em (including mains amps, outboard gear and a 16 channel board, two new floor monitors and related amps, plus some new mics and stands, and some cables and stuff). And now a Yamaha EMX512SC powered mixer sneaks it's way into the mix? What happened all the new stuff from the first post? I was going to suggest JBL's AE Expansion Series (asymmetrical or rotatable horn depending on the model, designed to be installed) with appropriate subs, but I'm not clear on what you kind of bands you intend to have and what levels you are expecting from the system. You've got a stage that looks like you plan on having a drummer, but are now using a Yamaha powered mixer for everything. Were I spec'ing this job, I'd need a lot more information on what it's being used for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members electrohippy Posted August 18, 2015 Author Members Share Posted August 18, 2015 trevdca, thanks for the recommendation! We are in the planning phase, will be buying things in stages, and the Yamaha system is what we already have (Yamaha EMX512SC and two S115V Speakers). We would like to try some options, incorporating what we have (with less expenditure), and see how it fares before going whole hog on something that may or may not work. We might even rent or borrow some speakers for a few shows. The boss said "we can spend up to $8,000 for everything, but we can't afford mistakes." We are working with someone who has access to some Control 28 speakers (among others) he recommended just for "bar sound" if we were going to go that route (separate systems for live/bar/DJ stuff), which is why I'm looking at that line first. The Expansion Series look even better! I'll ask and see it's a possibility to rent/borrow some from him since he already deals with JBL. We book all kinds of bands, but mostly rock/funk/jazz/folk types. We expect low levels as reinforcement only on live music nights, low levels with varied styles of recorded music for bar sound nights, with the option to increase the volume to fill the space for DJ gigs. I'm a little worried that the bar staff will be using the system. They are far from savvy, and resistant to change or training (like ignoring "please don't plug/unplug your phone from the input while the amp is on and the volume is turned up to 11!"). At this point we are using home audio for the bar sound, so it's not a huge loss if things break, but handing the bar staff keys to a higher end system for them to break sounds like a strange idea to me (but the boss, again...). I suppose we could include a DSP that would take care of that, but now we are adding layers of complication... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dedmeet Posted August 18, 2015 Members Share Posted August 18, 2015 The boss said "we can spend up to $8,000 for everything, but we can't afford mistakes." My honest advice: STOP. Hire a professional. You are over your head. Guessing at hardware over the internet with scant information is next to useless if you have not clearly defined your goal/target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted August 18, 2015 CMS Author Share Posted August 18, 2015 Well, I'd suggest STOP as well, but it's because nothing you buy or install will work. If the band refuses to cooperate and Turn the F Down, any system, installed, portable, virtual, hypothetical, magical, etc. will fail to fix the fact that the room is tiny and the band is loud. You really don't have a problem at all. The band, however, does. Your gear, as you have it now, should work just fine. "This one goes to eleven" Yeah, and it goes to "2" as well...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members electrohippy Posted August 18, 2015 Author Members Share Posted August 18, 2015 @dedmeet: lf you read the thread, you'll see that its purpose is not to "guess at hardware over the internet" and then buy and install it, but to explore viable options by asking knowledgeable folks on this forum, give the boss an approximate cost estimate for said options, and then consult with a professional who will ultimately design and install the system (and be paid to do so) once we have a better understanding of what options are available. I have defined my goal well already: an inobtrusive installed PA system that sounds good in a small room with low ceilings and all wood paneling, while addressing the issues of our somewhat strange seating arrangement (namely seating in close proximity to to the speakers). The option I currently support for that is to have smaller tops installed at ceiling level, and then place a sub somewhere (if it's even necessary). @Craig: I also agree that the archetypal "musician who always turns it up" is a problem, but not the only one, and really should be the subject of a different thread (IMHO). The seating arrangement, for example, is a big issue for us, but that can't be changed, so speaker placement will have to fix it (part of the subject of this thread). However, I think there are some more creative and friendly ways to solve the band turning up problem than draconian ultimatums. Like for example, requiring that all amps be on stands pointing at the musicians' heads instead of their knees. We had a band come through that the first thing they did was grab bar stools and put all their back line amps up (even the bass player). They were one of the cleanest bands we've ever had. I always put some chairs in the stage area for amps, and for some reason, 9 times out of 10 the band will remove them or even refuse to use them when I point them out as "for your amps." So I say put it in the run of show dox that they have to use stands for the back line (we would provide them). The "you'll never play in this town again" thing should just be a given if the band won't listen to what the house asks of them (like "turn it down..." And for the record I always communicate before the show that levels need to be low, and guess what, I always run the PA at exactly 2...). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted August 18, 2015 CMS Author Share Posted August 18, 2015 @Craig: I also agree that the archetypal "musician who always turns it up" is a problem, but not the only one, and really should be the subject of a different thread (IMHO). The seating arrangement, for example, is a big issue for us, but that can't be changed, so speaker placement will have to fix it (part of the subject of this thread). It may not be the only problem, but you can't and won't fix any of the other issues if the band doesn't turn down. I know it's easier to focus on technical problems that you may have some control over, versus dealing with people who make you feel as if you're trying to herd cats. But without professional bands that understand the importance of playing to the room and the audience, which means disciplined dynamics, all the technical help and gear will be for naught. We've seen this time and again here. We've all dealt with it, with our own bands, and with those for whom we've been hired to mix. No matter where you place speakers, no matter how many are used, the room will become a sea of midrange mud as everyone competes to hear and be heard. It'll get worse as ears fatigue and amps get turned up throughout the night. And FWIW, I wasn't promoting the use of draconian measures on the bands. I was suggesting that the prospect of being rehired would be a good incentive to keep the PIC happy. If they can't fathom this, they don't deserve a callback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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