IEM Logistics

[wesg]

Hi, Guys;

 

I'm thinking about going IEM, at least for the rehearsal space, so that I can hear my voice better. I find that I sing less badly when I can hear myself well.

 

I was looking at getting a set of clear Shure SE215s with a Rolls PM 351 as a starter rig. The Shures are available inexpensively locally (a miracle!), and the Rolls is inexpensive and very popular on the Keyboard Corner forum.

 

Here's the thing -- what the heck do I with my Leslie? (Other than ditching it and buying a sim )

 

Normally I have piano/synth in my monitor, and use that (and vocals etc) as a reference for my organ level. I play with the Leslie 6 feet from me. The Leslie is then mic'd with an XY pair up top and a single mic on the bottom.

 

So, I think what I'd need to do to get IEMs on the go is

 

- submix piano, synth, ambient mic, and three Leslie mics with my rack mixer

- send aux2 (post-fader) mix to FOH which does not include ambient mic

- run the rack mixer's main mix into the Rolls' "instrument" input

- run my vocal mic into the rolls "mic" input, and send the "mic thru" to the main mixer

- accept a monitor mix from the desk and plug that intothe Rolls' "line" input

- Mix mic, line (monitor mix), instrument on the Rolls to set my IEM mix

- Mix the Leslie, keys, and ambient mic on the rack mixer with the main faders. (This kind of sucks because there isn't much channel strip EQ nor any subgroups, both of which I use now for Leslies)

 

This seems awfully complicated. But maybe worth it?

 

Finally, the Rolls PM351 looks awfully big to have on your belt. Does anybody know of a box about the size of a tape measure, with a belt clip, that has nothing inside except a 1/4" TRS jack and an 1/8" TRS jack, connected together? I don't want the ear bud wires running in front of me.

 

Thanks,

Wes

[Mogwix]

1. Plug headphones into pack

2. Place pack on belt

3. Request a separate monitor mix be sent to your pack

[Craig Vecchione]

Rolls makes no mention of limiting in the PM351. I wouldn't use it for live source material.

[Vito Corleone]

Hi, Guys;

 

I'm thinking about going IEM, at least for the rehearsal space, ....

 

Here's the thing -- what the heck do I with my Leslie?....

 

Normally I have piano/synth in my monitor, and use that (and vocals etc) as a reference for my organ level. I play with the Leslie 6 feet from me. The Leslie is then mic'd with an XY pair up top and a single mic on the bottom.

 

So, I think what I'd need to do to get IEMs on the go is

 

- submix piano, synth, ambient mic, and three Leslie mics with my rack mixer.....

 

This seems awfully complicated. But maybe worth it?

 

These were the sentences of yours that stood out for me.

 

Yeah, 3 mics on a Leslie and IEMs for a rehearsal space does seem AWFULLY complicated.

 

Since it's A) just rehearsal and B) hearing your vocals better that is the main thing, I'd suggest trying running only your vocals into the IEM and just putting it in one ear. Personally, I wouldn't want the isolation you get with IEMs for rehearsal as I want that interaction with the other players.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[wesg]

Mogwix: thanks for helping realize I'd missed the forest for the trees. That's absolutely the right plan for playing out. I was trying to adapt others' solutions to my situation instead of thinking about it.

 

Craig: It does seem strange that Rolls products don't have limiters. But then, how do you set a limiter to protect your hearing anyhow? I have a DRPX that could be pressed into use for this, but it could easily be configured to blow out my eardrums if I'm not careful for the volume knob.

 

Dave: Great suggestion. Thank you! Putting this purchase off for a couple of weeks (waiting for pay on six gigs!! Union gigs!!) as I just committed to buying a Vent tomorrow. "They" say that doing the one-ear thing is hell for your hearing, but I bet it would be okay at a rehearsal. We rehearse loud, but not loud enough that my ears feel even the slightest bit tired after 2 hours. I can hear better when we turn down, but that's a battle I just can't seem to win (making headway, though).

 

Wes

[Vito Corleone]

The danger of the one-ear thing is that on loud stages there can be a temptation to keep turning up the IEM until you damage your hearing in an attempt to keep trying to hear yourself better.

 

The simple solution to that, of course, is to set the levels so that the loudest you can turn up the pack isn't at ear-damaging levels and then don't go turning up the signal to the pack if you find you've maxed out the volume.

 

 

[Craig Vecchione]

Indeed, the "one ear" thing is the other big no-no in IEM's. Yes, you see performers pull out an earbud. Don't do that.

 

Regarding limiters. If you don't know how to set limiters, you can damage your hearing. Even having IEM's with limiters, you can damage your hearing. But you have a much better chance of not doing so with the built in systems.

 

Some IEM sets have a wired option. A simple one would be the Shure P2R2 beltpack from a PSM200 system. They're discontinued but available used for good prices.

[Craig Vecchione]

The danger of the one-ear thing is that on loud stages there can be a temptation to keep turning up the IEM until you damage your hearing in an attempt to keep trying to hear yourself better.

 

The simple solution to that, of course, is to set the levels so that the loudest you can turn up the pack isn't at ear-damaging levels and then don't go turning up the signal to the pack if you find you've maxed out the volume.

 

 

The trouble with this is that it's always possible for an unexpected "accident" to send a hotter signal than you had anticipated. Limiting will typically prevent this or minimize it.

[Vito Corleone]

 

The trouble with this is that it's always possible for an unexpected "accident" to send a hotter signal than you had anticipated. Limiting will typically prevent this or minimize it.

 

Yes, you want a system with a built-in limiter. I was just speaking about the generality of the "one ear" danger. It gets overblown a bit. There's is nothing inherently dangerous about listening to a bud with one ear and the room mix with the other. If your volume is set to a safe level, there is nothing that is going to damage your ears by pulling one bud out. There is only a risk if you go ahead and keep turning up the volume. Don't do THAT and you'll be just fine with one-ear-in all night long.

 

The reason you see performers pull one out is because the mix is poor and it is affecting their ability to sing well. Since the entire purpose of IEMs is to hear the mix better and perform better, it makes no sense to insist they leave it in if they aren't doing what they are supposed to be doing.

 

Mine stay in much longer these days since I started controlling my own mix from a tablet.

 

Still, I tend to get my levels set the way I like with both buds in and then, for one reason or another, end up 'cracking' one ear halfway through the show. Usually because I start to get annoyed with being too isolated. And unless the room volume is so loud that I risk damaging my ears (the main reason I started using IEMs in the first place) then I usually finish out the night with one partly out.

 

Of course, non-molded buds operate in a "cracked open" mode just by design.

[Craig Vecchione]

guido61, have you tried adding an ambient mic to the IEM mix? That can sometimes help with the feeling of isolation, although it can sometimes be disorienting too.

[Vito Corleone]

guido61' date=' have you tried adding an ambient mic to the IEM mix? That can sometimes help with the feeling of isolation, although it can sometimes be disorienting too.[/quote']

 

No. While I've considered that recommendation many times, I've never actually tried it. My gut feeling has always been that it wouldn't really change things much in my situation, and I'd always be afraid that some drunk jackwad would find the mic and start screaming into it. That already happens too often with the singers' stage mics!

 

 

[Craig Vecchione]

 

No. While I've considered that recommendation many times, I've never actually tried it. My gut feeling has always been that it wouldn't really change things much in my situation, and I'd always be afraid that some drunk jackwad would find the mic and start screaming into it. That already happens too often with the singers' stage mics!

 

 

Easily fixed with a "right foot behind his left leg, gentle shove to the chest", followed by, "poor guy is so drunk he can't stand up...can someone please help him out to the sidewalk?".......

 

But seriously, the ambient mic can be on stage away from the drunks. It can literally be anywhere if you're using a mono setup, just keep its level relatively low.

[wesg]

Good discussion, thanks guys. Craig, great recommendation on the P2R2, interesting that it can be used with a wireless system also. I am going to keep my eyes peeled for one. I guess going hardwired into the P2R2 bypasses the compander?

 

Setting limiters - my thinking is to set your system up so that a normal volume lightly tickles the limiter's gain reduction LEDs. Then set the volume in my ears to something comfortable. I guess it needs to be a brick wall limiter, none of this "over easy" stuff. Does that make sense?

 

Ambient mic - my thought was to use a pencil condenser pointed to pick up the audience and the lead singer. I could attach it to the post of my mic stand with an acoustic guitar mic doo-dad.

 

Wes

[Craig Vecchione]

I'd assume the compander has to be bypassed when used as a wired system. But note that the P2-R2 bodypack does have a limiter, so you won't need to use an external limiter with it.

[Craig Vecchione]

Maybe it's still available new?

 

http://productionmonster.com/shop/in-ear-monitors/shure-p2r215cl-h2-wireless-receiver-w-se215-cl-earphones-band-h2-518-750-553-250mhz/

[Vito Corleone]

We use a couple of P2R2s as hardwired units. They work quite well.

[Shaster]

I'm backing up to the micing the Leslie for rehearsal. The last band rehearsal I did, the drummer brought a snare and hats, the keyboard player alternated between Hammond with Leslie, and a grand piano, vocals went through a couple of Yorkville powered speakers and I used my Vox DA5 practice amp. The horn players didn't use mics and actually used mutes for the most part. BTW we were rehearsing tunes by Huey Lewis, Rolling Stones and so on - it was Rock 'n Roll not Mozart, but the volume was very low.

 

I can't imagine micing anything but vocals for a rehearsal unless you're on a sound stage preparing for a tour - even then...

 

Personally if I'm on a loud stage, I wear earplugs and find that I can hear my vocals just fine that way. Earplugs; the poor man's IEM's.

[wesg]

Shaster -- I was think of mic'ing the Leslie for rehearsal so that I'd still be able to hear it with IEMs in. I suppose the ambient mic would also do the job, but I will lose the stereo field. Probably not that big of a deal anyhow.

 

Nice thought about earplugs. Maybe I should try some.

 

Wes

[loco_p_man]

Personally if I'm on a loud stage' date=' I wear earplugs and find that I can hear my vocals just fine that way. Earplugs; the poor man's IEM's.[/quote'] +1

 

 

[wesg]

So, I tried ear plugs for the first time the other night. This is becoming a bit more urgent, as I have recently started suffering pain when exposed to loud-ish sounds. Audiologist Wednesday.

 

Report - Etymotic ER-20 earplus attenuate so much that I can't hear the lead singer when singing harmony. I can really hear myself, though! Band mates say my intonation was noticeably better. Thinking about custom plugs with less attenuation. I have to use two sizes of off-the-shelf plugs to get a good seal.

 

Still thinking about IEM. Would be nice to hear other things while I'm singing. For IEMs, I'm now contemplating the Shure SE-215s with a $50 Behringer P1 belt pack. Low cost of acquisition, but hopefully good enough for me to decide if I can tolerate IEMs or not. The Behringer unit has a limiter and lets you mix two XLR sources.

 

After one rehearsal with ear plugs, I have to say, I hate them, but at least I'm not in pain.

[madjack]

Too bad the psm200 is out of production. I've used this with a Leslie before; put the monitor mix into one input, my vox mic in the other, and put a decent lapel mic directly into the 1/8 inch input in the bodypack. Got a decent mix of everything I needed.

 

[wesg]

Wow, that's an interesting approach. I never thought about plugging a label mic into the bodypack, that would make a pretty good "ambient" mic.

 

Still trying to decide what to do if I go IEM in smaller venues where I don't mic the Leslie. Maybe I can set my Leslie level purely by using the ambient mic. Or maybe I should just always mic the Leslie and get a bandmate to help me balance the sound in the room during sound check.

 

I'm still undecided what to do. Craig's earplug suggestion is good but I am not enjoying it. Went to the audiologist this morning, my hearing has some pretty serious holes in it. Both ears are down like 20dB at 4k. My left ear is also 10dB down at 250 and 2.2k. I'm going to have to do something.

 

Audiologists are funny, though. This morning, she tells me 12dB of attenuation is not a lot. I say it is huge, it's four times the loudness and now I can't hear the lead singer! Then she says, but look at this chart for how loud the various instruments are. I told her the chart was useless because it didn't document how the measurements were made - no distance etc. That was funny. I don't think anybody had ever questioned her spiel before.

 

She did show me how to get a better seal in my right ear. That will be helpful, because at least both sides of me will be as quiet. Maybe I should get some 9dB custom plugs.

 

Wes