Members ski219 Posted June 24, 2015 Members Share Posted June 24, 2015 I have some rookie questions here. I have a classic rock band playing small to mid sized rooms and we have a not so great 300 watt PA. We don't suck though and are starting to get busy as well as booking better rooms. I have been in many bands throughout the years, but have never had anything to do with the sound reinforcement other than carrying gear and running cables (guitar player here). I am just thinking vocals. We have 4 singers. Drummer likes to mic his kick but I understand that should only be done if sent through a sub? No guitars or Bass going through PA. Thoughts: a lot of folks are steering me towards active speakers; my feeling is that is like buying a TV with a VCR built in. If the amp goes what good is the speaker...if the speaker goes what good is the amp? However I understand the convenience in setup and I am also considering doing some solo acoustic guitar and singing gigs where a single powered speaker would be, I think, a good option. We already have plenty of monitors and mics/cables and have a small mixer that we can get by with though I would like to upgrade that as well. I am looking to spend about 1K and am good with buying used. So for that price range I need an amp and mains...still have not ruled out powered speakers and am considering a decent local deal on 2 Yahama 12",1000watt speakers with a Yamaha mixer for exactly my budget and not very old or used at all. I would greatly appreciate recommendations and advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wesg Posted June 24, 2015 Members Share Posted June 24, 2015 Active speakers are especially well-suited to non-pros (that's me) in my opinion. Your TV/VCR analogy is clever, but it falls apart real fast. Let's say you are at a gig with two FOH speakers, and an amp fails. If you have active speakers, one speaker is still making noise. If you have passive speakers, you're dead in the water. But redundancy is only a very small part of the equation. When you have active speakers, you have "building blocks". If you need a unit of sound, you bring the speaker, which has one unit of stuff. If you need two units of sound, you bring two speakers. Like Lego blocks. Plus, if you need one more unit of sound than you have now, you just go out and buy it.. no need to re-think or sell what you've already got - amp power, impedance matching, etc. I use Yorkville NX55P speakers in my PA, I can use these as side-fill, monitors, FOH, keyboard amp, whatever I want. If I want four monitor mixes, I use four aux outs from my mixer and four speakers. A friend with a PA built around Crown amps and JBL passive speakers can only muster two separate mixes, even though he has the same amount of speakers and power, because his monitor amp has two inputs and he runs two monitors in parallel per channel. The biggest benefit, though, of powered speakers is that you get "baked in" system engineering -- the processing matches the driver, the amps are the correct power for the speakers, the limiter is set up correctly for the drivers (and can be a lot smarter because of this), etc. My NX55Ps have a very flat response, not because of the drivers themselves, but because the processing in the cabinet knows all about the drivers, and compensates for their flaws pretty well. This means my graphic EQ is used only for room tuning. My friend with the passive system has to use his graphic EQ just to get a flat response out of his system. Other things I like about active speakers -- I can feed them with microphone cables, not expensive speaker cables. This means I can keep a variety of lengths "in stock", and when I work through a snake, I don't have to have an amp rack on stage. It's easier to grab a speaker or two and "go" - I don't need to worry about bringing amps and processing with me. Many good powered speakers include a simple mixer, also - so for super-small-input gigs, you can just plug right into the speaker(s). I do this often with instrumental groups, I will supply a speaker and microphone for announcements/solos...no mixer, no EQ, no processing, nothin'. Buying powered speakers on the used market is also a bit safer than buying passive speakers IMO -- they are less likely to have been over-powered, because the amplifier is matched to the speaker at the factory, and all good active speakers have built-in limiting. For me, the only cons for powered speakers are increased weight (2-3 lbs per speaker?) and having to run power to the speakers. Very small price to pay for an otherwise excellent solution. Wes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DanCostello Posted June 24, 2015 Members Share Posted June 24, 2015 If the amp goes what good is the speaker...if the speaker goes what good is the amp? This is the case with passive speakers, too - if either one dies, you get no sound. If you're worried about reliability and redundancy, then with a passive system, you'd have to carry an extra speaker AND amp, whereas with an active system, you just carry an extra speaker. -Dan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Unalaska Posted June 24, 2015 Members Share Posted June 24, 2015 I use all passive but it's paid for. If you can I'd go active to avoid and confusion. For solo and small gigs it will be an advantage not carrying an amp rack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ski219 Posted June 25, 2015 Author Members Share Posted June 25, 2015 OK some 1000 watt Mackie Thumps just appeared on Craigslist in my town. Practically new. Any good for my application? Yes I decided to go with powered speakers...just easier all around I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wesg Posted June 26, 2015 Members Share Posted June 26, 2015 What model? What price? I don't have any first-hand experience with these speakers, but somebody else here might. From what I have read online, I suspect they are a step up from Behringer, roughly equal with Alto, but not in the same "pro-use" grade as Yorkville, QSC, JBL PRX-series, and so on. Of course, they are also much cheaper. The Mackie Thump15 sells for $349 at Musician's Friend. I paid more than that for _used_ Yorkville speakers (and would do so again). Wes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted June 26, 2015 CMS Author Share Posted June 26, 2015 I'd feel a lot more comfortable recommending Mackie SRM series than Thump. I agree with wesg that the Thump are in a class with Behringer and some Alto, and in the used market you should be able to do much better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members abzurd Posted June 26, 2015 Members Share Posted June 26, 2015 No to the Thumps. In fact a good rule to follow in general is don't be the cheapest line of anything a company makes. That speaker, and others like it are there as purely a price point speaker.... good for Mackie, but bad for you. As Craig said, the SRM would be a usable, "worth owning" speaker. If you can stretch to $1100 you can get a pair of Yamaha DXR12's, which have a 7 yr warranty. You'll see they MAP for $699, but you can get them, and just about anything else, for 20% less if you either know where to go or just flat out ask the retailer. At $960 a pair the RCF 312A is also a good bet and at your budget. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ski219 Posted June 26, 2015 Author Members Share Posted June 26, 2015 Thanks for the Thump advice. I will pass on them. I would rather spend more and get something really good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wesg Posted June 26, 2015 Members Share Posted June 26, 2015 You won't be sorry. This forum taught me, "Buy once, cry once". What are those Yammies your dealer has? Are they DXR series? I hear nothing but good things about those. Once you have a set of good 12" powered speakers, your band will sound better. And then you can start saving for subs. BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM. Wes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ski219 Posted June 26, 2015 Author Members Share Posted June 26, 2015 Yeah, it's the DXR 12's, 1100watts. The guy is asking $1050 for a pair with a Yamaha MG124CX mixer. Which doesn't seem like a bad price. New they look to be $699 each. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dbMontana Posted June 26, 2015 Members Share Posted June 26, 2015 Yeah' date=' it's the DXR 12's, 1100watts. The guy is asking $1050 for a pair with a Yamaha MG124CX mixer. Which doesn't seem like a bad price. New they look to be $699 each.[/quote'] I own a pair of the DXR12's -- excellent speaker. ...and that's an excellent price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ski219 Posted July 9, 2015 Author Members Share Posted July 9, 2015 Update: The Yamahas got sold before I could pull the trigger. However, I just picked up an older pair of Mackie SRM450's that sound great. These have the Italian made woofers, but form what I read online the amps can be prone to overheating. I am thinking about adding a small clip on fan to blow air across the heat sinks. OK now I need a small mixer. All 5 of us in my band sing so I am looking for something with 6 XLR inputs. Any recommendations regarding what I should be looking for? Onboard effects or no? I am thinking stay away from Behringer and am looking mainly at Yamaha, Mackie, Carvin... looking for a balance of quality and price point here. Don't know if I mentioned it before, we are planning to use our old amp to power our monitors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rangerkarlos Posted July 9, 2015 Members Share Posted July 9, 2015 You may want to look at a mixer with more than 6 xlr inputs. Better to have more than enough and not need them than not having enough and kicking yourself Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ski219 Posted July 10, 2015 Author Members Share Posted July 10, 2015 So a Mackie profx12 mixer popped up on CL one town away and I picked it up yesterday. Used the new PA at practice last night and it is a major upgrade... Nice to be able to hear ourselves sing and not have to strain and shout. First gig with the new system is Saturday at a mid sized room that gets some of the best bands in our area. Rangerkarlos, funny thing is the board I bought was practically new and the guy was selling it ti get the 16 channel which he said the sales guy advised him to get in the first place. For me though, the only place I am going with my music would be smaller, as in solo of duo. More questions here: Other guitarist in band has a rack mounted Alesis reverb and a compressor as well. I often run 2 verbs or a verb and delay through my guitar rig. Will that work for vocals as well? The pro fx has some preset efx and some are not bad, but why not add more if we got 'em? Also, At practice I just set the SRM 450's volume straight up at 12:00. Had more than enough volume for our practice space, but was barely lighting up the meters on the board. I am thinking that I should dial down the speaker's volume and boost the mixer's? Will this make a difference in the sound, in feedback control? Yes I am clueless when it comes to PA stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jesseweiss Posted July 10, 2015 Members Share Posted July 10, 2015 Turning down the speaker level and turning up the mixer doesn't make any difference. It's the combination, so I wouldn't worry if it sounds fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ski219 Posted July 12, 2015 Author Members Share Posted July 12, 2015 Update: Had our first gig with the new PA last night. Sounded great! We sounded so much better vocally, and being able to hear myself sing and not strain made a word of difference. Next step is to experiment with the compressor and reverb unit my other guitarist has. Also want to get a small amp to use for monitors and put it in a rack with the efx units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted July 23, 2015 CMS Author Share Posted July 23, 2015 Update: Had our first gig with the new PA last night. Sounded great! We sounded so much better vocally, and being able to hear myself sing and not strain made a word of difference. Next step is to experiment with the compressor and reverb unit my other guitarist has. Also want to get a small amp to use for monitors and put it in a rack with the efx units. Glad it went well. Be careful with compression, if you don't fully understand what it does, you can really mess up a good mix (which you're indicating you've got now), and the same goes for reverb....less is more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Tomm Williams Posted July 23, 2015 Members Share Posted July 23, 2015 Yes, depending on stage volume, mic patterns, etc.. ...adding processing like that can invite feedback. Research these dynamics thoroughly before deciding they are actually needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ski219 Posted July 23, 2015 Author Members Share Posted July 23, 2015 And I thought adding compression was a way to avoid feedback. Is this not so? I have a compressor in my guitar effects chain and I don't love it and never use it anymore. As far as the reverb unit, I am just looking for more options than the mixer has internally. Again, in my guitar chain, I often use 2 reverbs: 1 spring in the amp and the other digital and I love the way it sounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wesg Posted July 24, 2015 Members Share Posted July 24, 2015 No, compressors do not reduce feedback. They CAN, however, invite it. Think of it this way - they make quiet louder and loud quieter. So when there is no (or low) signal, it is not much different than turning up your level in the monitor. What happens when you do that? Eventually, you get feedback. So, effectively, compressors in your monitor reduces your available gain before feedback. In my rock band, I am personally contemplating using a bit of compression on my vocal subgroup on its way to the front of house, to try and get the backing and lead vocals to "stick" together better. But I'm afraid to do that because I have to mix from the stage. I have a multi-track recording of our last gig, I may try doing that in the DAW to see how it sounds. But transferring that from the DAW to the live sound console will still be tricky. It might be doable if loop the compressor into the DAW as an outboard rather than using the DAW's built-in compression. Wes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cappttenron Posted July 24, 2015 Members Share Posted July 24, 2015 I only use compression when I have a vocalist or speaker with poor mic technique anymore. On and off the mic. Watch pros they know how to stay on the mic and give you a good level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ski219 Posted July 24, 2015 Author Members Share Posted July 24, 2015 I think I will pass on using the compressor then... I am not a big fan of it for my guitar... Just looking for ways to reduce/eliminate feedback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cappttenron Posted July 24, 2015 Members Share Posted July 24, 2015 Feedback is often the placement of the mics in the room. If you are in a small venue backed up against glass or a mirror its always a pain. I had some improvement by changing from shure to all shure beta mics that seemed to improve my feedback problem. Also the dynamics of the room change as it starts filling up with people.. One thing that might help is hanging a backdrop of some kind behind your group. Helps kill some of the reflected sound. As an example we used to practice in my garage and had bad feedback issues. I put an old carpet on the floor and hung a quilt on the rear wall and all our troubles went away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wesg Posted July 24, 2015 Members Share Posted July 24, 2015 Best ways to eliminate feedback: - Turn down - Position speakers and microphones intelligently - Use only high-quality equipment - Equalization Equalization helps mostly indoors where you need to carve out "room modes" that cause certain frequencies to ring. The goal is to carve out a bit of these frequencies without carving out too much musical content. The easiest type of EQ to use a 31-channel unit with lights that light up when a frequency is ringing really badly. Remember, that the more frequencies you carve out, the worse your sound is. There are also peaks in response and reproduction depending on your microphones and speakers. You can use equalization to even out the response of your speakers. If you limit yourself to only one type of monitor and one type of vocal microphone, you will also find that feedback is a bit easier to manage. Graphic EQs with less than 31 sliders each are not useful for controlling feedback, but they can help even out the response of your speakers (to a certain extent). Parametric equalizers can be good at taking out room modes but are difficult to use. "Feedback Eliminators" are parametric equalizers which try to detect feedback and then cut those frequencies very narrowly. Pros tend not to use these, but I have found that good ones can be very helpful if run as an insert on each microphone channel strip. However, you need to understand what they do, how they do it, and -- mostly importantly -- you need to understand that you can not be 100% feedback-free if you use them. They can't cut what they haven't detected. They are not magic bullets. I am currently using a mix of all the techniques above in my rehearsal space. It's a terrible room with a lowish ceiling, is nearly square, is small, and has hard walls (glass, pine, drywall). And we play louder than strictly necessary -- roughly bar stage volume (although not so loud that my ears tire). I have a 31ch GEQ on each monitor with 3 or 4 ~3dB cuts on each resonant frequency of the room (found by ringing out the monitors). Then I run FBX on each vocal mic with 4-5 room modes carved out before we start. After we start there is usually a few seconds of bleep-searching as the instruments excite the room, and then things are stable for the night. Wes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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