Tablet Talk

[Bobby1Note]

Fill in the blank;

 

If I were buying a new tablet tomorrow,,,, I would buy __________. (something that works well, without busting the bank. Sweet-spot price-wise. i-Pad? Android-based?

 

I just bought a new Dell XPS PC (i7 4th gen./ 32GB RAM/ 2TB DD/256GB SSD/ Radeon R9-270 2GB DDR5 Graphics/ twin 24" IPS-panel monitors.) Dell sent me a 5% cash-back coupon, and wondering what to spend it on. Since a lot of you guys run tablets lately, I thought I'd tap in to your experiences, regrets, and Eureka moments.

[Unalaska]

Ipad. no doubt. I'm a PC guy but there's so much more out there for iPad apps. And accessories. Icloud is nice too

 

[dbMontana]

Agreed on the profusion of tools for the iDevice route. I've been using an iPad 3 Retina for AudioTools and wireless mixing on my X32 without a single burp, hiccup, or drop-out. That said a couple of years ago an Apple IOS upgrade totally broke the Presonus app for almost two months -- taught me a lesson there -- and the word is that the current upgrade to IOS 8.3 breaks the metered bridge on the X32 app -- sigh.

 

 

 

Either way I just this week took delivery of an Android Asus Nexus 7 (2013) so I can take advantage of a third-party developed app called Mixing Station. Behringer has opened up the interface to the X32 and Mixing Station has quickly outpaced the factory app in all respects. So far I've only remixed multitrack in my basement (two big gigs coming up next weekend) but I'm truly impressed with the product -- quick screen-change and overall response, excellent visualizations, and really useful layer/button/channel-layout customizations. I applaud the open-source approach and will bet (hope?) it will become the standard in the not too distant future. I predict the day is not far off when you will choose an "app" you like and then the interface you prefer for a given gig -- smart phone for IEM control, 7-9" tablet for bar gigs, 21" touch screen for others (or the hybrid wireless fader-bank with touch screen I may have to wait a while longer for) -- and then hook it up to whatever stage-side pre amp/processing box by whatever manufacturer you prefer. The democritization of Pro(sumer) sound?

[dboomer]

Depends what you want to use it for. If that would ever be anything that needs to operate in very close to real time you need to go with an iPad.

[dbMontana]

Depends what you want to use it for. If that would ever be anything that needs to operate in very close to real time you need to go with an iPad.

 

Just curious Don - can I assume you are referring to passing then processing audio over wireless? I mean the faders on the console sure seem to move in real time enough in response to moving a finger on the Nexus. I'm not disagreeing just looking to learn something.

 

 

[Bobby1Note]

The iPad seems to be the consensus everywhere I look, so I'll check-out the iPad Air2.

 

With Dell being a competitor, I certainly won't find an iPad there, so my Dell coupon will have to find another device to spend it on. ($102.00 coupon). Dell does have their "Venue" series tablets, which at first glance appear to be re-badged Samsung Galaxy units. Interestingly, for photography buffs, their tablet supposedly has a 3D "stereo camera".

 

Initially, I'm looking to do two things with the tablet; 1. store and display photos, and 2. remote control mixing. (big maybe). I really haven't given this tablet subject much thought, and I was considering a tablet solely as a way of using my discount-coupon. Maybe I should hang on to that coupon a little while, and wait for one of Dells' UltraSharp 27" 4K monitors to come on-sale.

 

 

[voicemaster]

microsoft surface 3 or pro 3.

[Mogwix]

Ipad. no doubt. I'm a PC guy but there's so much more out there for iPad apps. And accessories.

I'm inclined to agree. I got my iPad 4 last year and I use it a ton for my audio work. Most apps you would need are built for iPad, namely X32/M32 remote. I've had problems with Android tabs in the past and everything seems really "cheap" in comparison to the iPad.

 

microsoft surface 3 or pro 3.

I've never tried them but I hear great things from some of my other touring friends. The best part is that they're real computers that you can hook up to real displays and peripherals.

[dboomer]

 

Just curious Don - can I assume you are referring to passing then processing audio over wireless? I mean the faders on the console sure seem to move in real time enough in response to moving a finger on the Nexus. I'm not disagreeing just looking to learn something.

 

 

Anything passing back and forth to an Android device can typically take 300ms (that's more than 1 beat depending how fast your song is) and it is not uncommon for it to take close to 1 second at times. If that's good enough for your application then you'll be good. Doesn't work for me.

[dbMontana]

 

Anything passing back and forth to an Android device can typically take 300ms (that's more than 1 beat depending how fast your song is) and it is not uncommon for it to take close to 1 second at times. If that's good enough for your application then you'll be good. Doesn't work for me.

Hmm, yea that could be a problem for certain applications for sure. I did notice last evening when I was playing with the Nexus 7 tablet directly in front of the mixer that I could discern a lag in the tablet RTA response on the kick channel in comparison to the same display on the mixer -- may well have been 300 ms. I wrote some of that off to the tablet being a wireless connection but it certainly could have been the Android OS in general. Guess that's why Andrew developed AudioTools for IOS huh? Matter of fact here's the Studio Six Digital Android page:

 

[WynnD]

Just about all digital mixers use an ipad. Only a small portion use Android tablets for that. So before purchasing one, you had better choose a mixer first. (Or just buy the ipad.)

[Craig Vecchione]

I'd say the sweet spot is probably a refurb iPad of recent generation. The latest/greatest are hella pricey, the older used models are liable to be unsupported too soon. There's not a lot of savings in the Apple refurbs, but it's enough to take some of the sting out of the purchase.

[dbMontana]

So just to follow-up on using my new tablet for two gigs this weekend (spoiler alert -- I could have just as easily posted this in the XR18 thread by Unalaska). The gigs went very well -- the Friday venue was a bar/restaurant I've done a dozen times and never had a single problem with my iPad but half way through the night I looked down and the Android app was gone with only a popup box saying essentially "The app has stopped working. Report the problem or reconnect?" Well DUH, yes, reconnect NOW! It did reconnect immediately and worked fine the rest of the evening. Hmm, disconcerting to say the least -- loss of network or??

 

The Saturday gig was an annual high $$ fundraiser with 500-800 ppl in a large ballroom. We set up at noon for a 7:00 start and so had plenty of time to mount the router up high so as to provide very good line-of-sight coverage to the entire room. Well long story short the app died I'd guess 8-10 times with the same notice as the night before. Interestingly it never died when I was actively using it only when I was walking the large venue listening and then reached to make an adjustment and had to hit the reconnect -- which it did without issue every time. Note that the app dying never affected the sound thankfully. As noted the overall event went very well -- the band, crowd, and organizers were very happy -- but was hardly reassuring for my new tablet solution.

 

So yesterday I did my usual and re-played the recording of the Saturday gig through headphones while mixing from the new tablet and during the process noticed the icons up along the top left of the display (no, I'm not at all familiar with Androids being a long-time iDevice user) and low and behold they pull down a menu notifying me that a software upgrade (4.4.1 I believe) had been downloaded and did I want to install it. OK, sure -- reboot to finish the process. Maybe that will help with the app dying. Five minutes later I notice the icon is there again. "Upgrade 4.4.2 has been downloaded -- do you want to install it?" Ummm, sure again. Five minutes later Upgrade 4.4.3 was downloaded, then you guessed it, Upgrade 4.4.4. OK, so are we done yet? Guess so so I finally get back to mixing and now "Android OS 5 something has been downloaded -- install?". So has this tablet been sitting on the shelf for three years or something? I can't say I've ever had that experience with an Apple product.

 

Corollary to the XR18 thread? -- Guess I should have taken a bit more time to explore the actual device instead of just the Mixing Station app before heading off to a public gig. In my defence I did have my iPad along as backup if needed.

 

Anyway, I'm hoping that all the upgrades will address the app dying issue as I really like the functionality it provides -- a MAJOR improvement over the factory iPad product. Excellent visualizations (RTA backdrop for EQ screens and scrolling raw and processed levels as backdrop for dynamics screens), highly customizable layers and buttons, responsive adjustments, an outstanding tool for ringing out monitors, an extensive and engaged user community and, maybe above all, an agile and responsive developer. Time will tell -- fingers crossed. Always some new adventure huh?

[agedhorse]

Dave - how would you have felt seeing that message on a show that you were providing sound as a sound company for where another engineer was using the system? How about if it crapped the bed, you might be on the hook for a real monetary loss to the promoter? Feeling any puckering yet?

 

This is what separates the cheaper stuff from the higher tier products, and why most engineers don't mix those kinds of gigs from tablets or i-devices.

[happwith12strin]

My suggestion is to use an 11 inch Windows laptop with fairly powerful processor, maybe a Pentium B960 or I3 or an AMD A6 or faster.

 

The problem with tablets is errors caused by human ergonomics,,.human fingertips are too big

that's why tablets make mistakes.

 

Android is not mainsteam enough for a lot of audio programs.

 

A fast netbook might work in a pinch but only the very fastest Intel Atoms. I would stay away from Intel Atoms or N series Celerons for any complicated pro audio programs.

 

I would look for an 11 inch laptop with Windows and a more powerful processor.

Yes you can mix a little bit with a tablet, but what about any other programs like Cakewalk Sonar or Cubase or Pro Tools?

[dbMontana]

Dave - how would you have felt seeing that message on a show that you were providing sound as a sound company for where another engineer was using the system? How about if it crapped the bed, you might be on the hook for a real monetary loss to the promoter? Feeling any puckering yet?

 

This is what separates the cheaper stuff from the higher tier products, and why most engineers don't mix those kinds of gigs from tablets or i-devices.

 

Andy, make no mistake I'd be puckered big time just being responsible for an event of the scale you do -- even given the best/most reliable/redundant system available. Relying on any tablet let alone a brand-new to me OS and app just-out-of-the-box would be totally unacceptable in that context. To be honest I was real close to grabbing my old (relatively) trusty iPad as it was and I did also have my X32 Compact setup stage side which I could use as the principle control surface if all wireless access died entirely. The band in this case was a seven-piece 40's jazz ensemble composed of very experienced players that I've been the primary BE for all along so I wasn't too worried about needing to be 110% focused on keeping them out of trouble -- just balanced and audible throughout the venue. Still, your point is very well taken.

 

Maybe a corollary to your perspective at is my day job where I'm responsible for a public-facing information system that maintains true five-nines availability and when one of the new "kids" come to me espousing the newest cool tool that can solve a problem we're not actually experiencing I tend to bristle big time. I simply don't have time for solutions looking for a problem -- and in the process creating them.

[dbMontana]

--snip--

 

So yesterday I did my usual and re-played the recording of the Saturday gig through headphones while mixing from the new tablet and during the process noticed the icons up along the top left of the display (no, I'm not at all familiar with Androids being a long-time iDevice user) and low and behold they pull down a menu notifying me that a software upgrade (4.4.1 I believe) had been downloaded and did I want to install it. OK, sure -- reboot to finish the process. Maybe that will help with the app dying. Five minutes later I notice the icon is there again. "Upgrade 4.4.2 has been downloaded -- do you want to install it?" Ummm, sure again. Five minutes later Upgrade 4.4.3 was downloaded, then you guessed it, Upgrade 4.4.4. OK, so are we done yet? Guess so so I finally get back to mixing and now "Android OS 5 something has been downloaded -- install?". So has this tablet been sitting on the shelf for three years or something? I can't say I've ever had that experience with an Apple product.--snip--

 

...and so last night when I got home guess what? "Android 5.1 has been downloaded. Install?" Sigh -- sure. Then of course following that: "Android 5.1.1. has been..." Dang. I did some research and think I'm finally through, however.

 

Now to its credit the Mixing Station app "noticed" the OS upgrades and notified that it now had an appropriate update as well so I "think" I should finally be up-to-date. I "think".

[dbMontana]

 

 

 

...and so last night when I got home guess what? "Android 5.1 has been downloaded. Install?" Sigh -- sure. Then of course following that: "Android 5.1.1. has been..." Dang. I did some research and think I'm finally through, however.

 

 

 

Now to its credit the Mixing Station app "noticed" the OS upgrades and notified that it now had an appropriate update as well so I "think" I should finally be up-to-date. I "think".

 

Wow! Replying to my own reply to my own quote.

 

 

 

Just had had to close the loop on this to be fair. Last night was the first gig with all the OS and app upgrades installed on the Nexus 7 and everything went flawlessly. Mixing Station is one very innovative solution and was rock solid. Outside of mixing, however, I'm still much more comfortable with the iDevice world.

 

 

 

What at did you end up getting Bobby?

 

 

[mshifflett]

I have had the best luck with Apple products so my vote would be the iPad. That being said, I would never pass audio over that wireless connection with a tablet but if it's for basic remote control of the system I am all about it.

[Bobby1Note]

 

 

What at did you end up getting Bobby?

 

 

Dave, I haven't made a move on this just yet. Remote mixing is simply not in the cards for me at the moment, and for the time being, I'm primarily interested in a portable device that will store and display photos. That said, if I buy a device that will also allow access to remote mixing, it may be just the impetus I need to get into a new console. (A&H Qu-16, etc).

 

I like the way this thread has slowly evolved, and it's starting to become evident that I may need more than one device. Why? Well, as far as photography is concerned, I just don't think that carrying a larger tablet is very practical; and on the other hand (musically speaking), I doubt I'd want to be mixing on a smallish 7"-8" display.

 

On another related note, our band project has completely stalled in the last year or so, and I'm currently treading water.

[dbMontana]

 

Dave, I haven't made a move on this just yet. Remote mixing is simply not in the cards for me at the moment, and for the time being, I'm primarily interested in a portable device that will store and display photos. That said, if I buy a device that will also allow access to remote mixing, it may be just the impetus I need to get into a new console. (A&H Qu-16, etc).

 

I like the way this thread has slowly evolved, and it's starting to become evident that I may need more than one device. Why? Well, as far as photography is concerned, I just don't think that carrying a larger tablet is very practical; and on the other hand (musically speaking), I doubt I'd want to be mixing on a smallish 7"-8" display.

 

On another related note, our band project has completely stalled in the last year or so, and I'm currently treading water.

 

Then I'd feel confident pointing you towards the iPad with Retina display -- either the full size which I have or the Mini which my wife has. The iPad is essentially my primary "home computer" these days -- great for browsing, checking email/weather/radar/etc, not to mention AudioTools and works well for wireless mixing all in all. I also have a MacBook Pro for recording and processing or when I want a real keyboard to compose text but the iPad is always withing reach for the majority of tasks. Note that more than a few folks on other forums have found the 7" tablet to be more convenient for walking-around mixing as it's easier to hold and reach everything with your thumbs and after using one I tend to agree -- likely would be different if I was using a device that was stationary propped on a table so I could use multiple fingers. I recently got my first Android so I could take advantage of David's very innovative Mixing Station app for X32 spurred on by Behringer's v-e-r-y s-l-o-w p-a-c-e at enhancing the iPad app as well as another IOS upgrade that broke certain features of the existing app. Beside at $170 USD the Nexus 7 (2013) is more expendable than my $600 iPad should it come up damaged or missing at a venue . However, I don't want to talk down any Android options for general use as I have very limited experience in comparison to iThings.

 

Either way I think you should go ahead and get a Qu-16 as it will soothe your soul while you tread water with your band. Hopefully, however, such an expenditure would not adversely impede your previously documented penchant for acquiring high-quality inebriates as my Quebec City colleague's repeated urgings to convene a face-to-face there might bring me to your part of the world some day and I might have to look you up and stop by to sample your collection . Good luck!

[Bobby1Note]

 

Then I'd feel confident pointing you towards the iPad with Retina display -- either the full size which I have or the Mini which my wife has. The iPad is essentially my primary "home computer" these days -- great for browsing, checking email/weather/radar/etc, not to mention AudioTools and works well for wireless mixing all in all. I also have a MacBook Pro for recording and processing or when I want a real keyboard to compose text but the iPad is always withing reach for the majority of tasks. Note that more than a few folks on other forums have found the 7" tablet to be more convenient for walking-around mixing as it's easier to hold and reach everything with your thumbs and after using one I tend to agree -- likely would be different if I was using a device that was stationary propped on a table so I could use multiple fingers. I recently got my first Android so I could take advantage of David's very innovative Mixing Station app for X32 spurred on by Behringer's v-e-r-y s-l-o-w p-a-c-e at enhancing the iPad app as well as another IOS upgrade that broke certain features of the existing app. Beside at $170 USD the Nexus 7 (2013) is more expendable than my $600 iPad should it come up damaged or missing at a venue . However, I don't want to talk down any Android options for general use as I have very limited experience in comparison to iThings.

 

Either way I think you should go ahead and get a Qu-16 as it will soothe your soul while you tread water with your band. Hopefully, however, such an expenditure would not adversely impede your previously documented penchant for acquiring high-quality inebriates as my Quebec City colleague's repeated urgings to convene a face-to-face there might bring me to your part of the world some day and I might have to look you up and stop by to sample your collection . Good luck!

 

Thanks for that info Dave. I guess I'll have to take a look at those iPads in action. I'll try to set-up a demo with my pro-sound dealer, and while I'm at it, I'll talk to the guys at the camera store about wireless image-transfer. Memory expansion is another subject I'll want to consider. I've also got to keep in mind that one of my new cameras shoots 4K video. (UHD 3840x2160P). It's amazing how display resolution has advanced in the last year or so.

 

As for "sampling my collection", you'd be MOST WELCOME. ;-)). That collection keeps on growing; in fact, I just ordered a few more bottles of Highland Park. (12 & 18 year old), and a couple of Ardbeg Uigeadail. (my current favorite).

 

I'll get some seat-belts fastened to the dining-room chairs, and I've got a comfy guest-room I can put at your disposal. ;-))