Members Unalaska Posted May 9, 2015 Members Share Posted May 9, 2015 i run sound for lots of party bands, this particular band does country really well and it's a casino. It's all my gear except for the XR18 and the band is all on ears except for the fill in bass player. The XR18 is being used as a monitor board only, I've got an EWI 24x8 100' with 3 DB25 splits I added for a splitter. FOH is an 01v96. so my iPad is running slow. It's 3+ yrs old, my 2yr old plays with it all the time. built in wifi. Kept dropping out. i have an extra router so I can use the 01v96 remote app. It works far better and it's a $20 T-link 2.4ghz router. Latency.... With this iPad oh, 8-20 seconds. Thank god it's an in ear mixer only, If I was adjusting FOH I'd rage-quit hard. This thing can't keep up. my issues aren't with this product totally, obviously it's the iPad running really slow. At this point I'm scratching all tablet only mixers off my list. Workflow sucks. I need more than what little I get from the screen to move quickly. Oh, and I hit mute on a buss master, took 5min to find it. Performers on stage crackin jokes to the audience as I'm flipping thru pages trying to find where the mute button is if that really is the problem. I hit the button wi my thumb right before turning off the iPad and setting it down. all is ok, obviously I'm not using the app at the moment. I'm thankful for not having to rely on it for FOH duty and having a really solid FOH console. And thankful for passive splits. that is all. oh and it's pretty well made. Smaller than you'd think. Power cord off the side. Why? Xlr sends are upside down due to space. Feels ok, not peavey heavy duty but on par with any euro rack mixer. +1 for external wifi link. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dedmeet Posted May 9, 2015 Members Share Posted May 9, 2015 all is ok, obviously I'm not using the app at the moment. I'm thankful for not having to rely on it for FOH duty and having a really solid FOH console. And thankful for passive splits. You will find that nearly every issue you had will clear up if you run the app and upgrade the firmware on your mixer. Fewer dropouts and much better stability overall. Also, many new features! I have a few shows under my belt with my XR18 and the one at a local venue with zero issues. I generally configure the mixer with a laptop at FOH and do line checks and monitor mixes on stage with a small android tablet. The one failure, in my opinion, with the mixer is the wireless access point. It only does 2.4GHz and only supports WEP encryption. For that reason, I use my own WAP, which also gives me the option of running an ethernet cable to the FOH laptop. Here is my rig, going out again for the second time this weekend: My review on another site: https://soundforums.net/threads/12113-XR18-Gig-Report Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted May 10, 2015 Members Share Posted May 10, 2015 If the products I shipped out needed an update before they worked properly, our customers would be hella-pissed. WHY can't manufacturers ship product that works out of the box? Nothing pisses me off more than buggy software and beta hardware. Is it now ok in digital audio land for products not to work as advertised??? (this is a general rant, not really product specific) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Unalaska Posted May 10, 2015 Author Members Share Posted May 10, 2015 The band walked in with it in a sealed box. Firmware upgrade? Was I supposed to know this? For tonight I am using a galaxy tab4 with not much on it. Still slow but not as bad. I don't like the andriod app very much. Very short throw faders and everything is too cramped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members OneEng Posted May 10, 2015 Members Share Posted May 10, 2015 If the products I shipped out needed an update before they worked properly, our customers would be hella-pissed. WHY can't manufacturers ship product that works out of the box? Nothing pisses me off more than buggy software and beta hardware. Is it now ok in digital audio land for products not to work as advertised??? (this is a general rant, not really product specific) Yep. It appears to be the new standard in digital consoles. Ship it broke, then fix it later ..... a little at a time. All of them have been participating too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dedmeet Posted May 10, 2015 Members Share Posted May 10, 2015 Well, had a superb gig with my XR18 last night. Small Arabic band playing for a gaggle of bellydancers. Very picky musicians in this group and they all were thrilled with how they sounded. Had a few metal gigs during the week as well also with good result. My standard load-out now is a laptop at FOH and either an Andriod or iPad on stage for line check and monitor setup. So far, no dropouts and no issues, just several good sounding shows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members abzurd Posted May 10, 2015 Members Share Posted May 10, 2015 Yep. It appears to be the new standard in digital consoles. Ship it broke, then fix it later ..... a little at a time. All of them have been participating too. Absolutely true! It's called agile development and, like everything else, has it's pros and cons. The price you pay for getting extra functionality in the future that you didn't pay for is resigning yourself to the fact the bones of the software don't ever seem to be quite finished. It's an arms race of adding features. This is way more sexy for the marketing department than product stability. I think too the world is more accepting of the practice as the last generation has grown up on software updates from operating systems and the software that runs on the systems, to web pages, and now to smart phone apps. Sure, people will gripe about crashes and glitches, but the practices are pretty much universal now, at least up through the "pro-sumer" market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted May 10, 2015 Members Share Posted May 10, 2015 I haven't found the customers to be any more forgiving when there are hardware glitches... are software guys being judged by different criteria... ie. it's always a work in progress and it's ok for functions not to work as designed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted May 10, 2015 Members Share Posted May 10, 2015 Starting the third full year with the DL1608 - I figure in another 3-10 years it will be "finished" . It'll probably go out of production and no new software well before that though . Just like my DDX3216 and Phonic S16 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted May 11, 2015 Members Share Posted May 11, 2015 The band walked in with it in a sealed box. Firmware upgrade? Was I supposed to know this? anyone going straight from sealed box to the stage is asking for trouble. Don't you routinely check every new piece of programmable gear? If you don't, you should. Typically there is a message from the manufacturer to do just that packed with those other docs that no one reads. As as far as manufactures shipping only the most current revs, most gear is a month out of the factory before it hits the manufacturers warehouse and some gear ships directly from China to dealers without ever hitting the manufacturer's DC. Now add to that the 3 months plus it may sit in a dealer's inventory. I don't know any dealers that routinely flash devices with the newest firmware. I believe the responsibility should be one the shoulders of the dealer that sold it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members OneEng Posted May 11, 2015 Members Share Posted May 11, 2015 I haven't found the customers to be any more forgiving when there are hardware glitches... are software guys being judged by different criteria... ie. it's always a work in progress and it's ok for functions not to work as designed? I certainly am at work! I can ship a firmware or software patch out to fix any software issue. If the hardware leaves with any defects, I have to recall everything shipped ...... and look for another job Actually, I plan for hardware issues as well. All hardware created at my company has to have a hardware ID .... usually a simple A/D input reading a voltage bridge that we populate the appropriate values at production specific for the hardware revision being built. The firmware and software can then work around any hardware problems to the greatest extent possible for each hardware revision. But yes, I am MUCH less forgiving of software and firmware issues since the impact is so much less severe than a hardware issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members OneEng Posted May 11, 2015 Members Share Posted May 11, 2015 Starting the third full year with the DL1608 - I figure in another 3-10 years it will be "finished" . It'll probably go out of production and no new software well before that though . Just like my DDX3216 and Phonic S16 . Since Behringer has an open interface specification, I figure that the XR and X32 series will always have application support even if Behringer doesn't provide it for new OS versions. In my particular case, I could write the app myself if I was forced to. This is a very attractive feature to me that only Behringer (currently) supports. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Unalaska Posted May 11, 2015 Author Members Share Posted May 11, 2015 No one cares about writings apps for products that aren't the newest thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members abzurd Posted May 11, 2015 Members Share Posted May 11, 2015 I haven't found the customers to be any more forgiving when there are hardware glitches... are software guys being judged by different criteria... ie. it's always a work in progress and it's ok for functions not to work as designed? In a word YES. Software can be fixed/updated, en masse, and at a much lower cost than shipping hardware back for repair. It's the way software has always worked. That said, it does seem to be as bad as it's ever been with software that lacks basic functionality and an assumed stability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DanCostello Posted May 11, 2015 Members Share Posted May 11, 2015 Yep. It appears to be the new standard in digital consoles. Ship it broke, then fix it later ..... a little at a time. That's the new standard with digital anything. You guys should see how things work in the video game industry; it's so much worse. Previously, if you bought a game in the store, there would be no way for updates to get pushed to it, so it'd have to work when shipped. But now that broadband and digital content distribution systems are so ubiquitous (including on consoles, not just pc's), the "Day 1 Patch" is now the new deadline for getting all of your bugs fixed. I know guys in the industry who are lifelong, hardcore gamers who are on the verge of giving up on new console games, because they don't want to put a disc in only to be told that they have to wait an hour for a 3GB update to download. -Dan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Unalaska Posted May 12, 2015 Author Members Share Posted May 12, 2015 Just another small gripe: my FOH is right in front of me, on, easy to access everything. The guitar player needs more lead voc in his mix. Ok: turn the tablet on, fire up the app. Wait a minute or so. Ok, sync. Now start looking for "sends on faders". Total time lost: 2.5minutrs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dedmeet Posted May 12, 2015 Members Share Posted May 12, 2015 Unalaska, why did you close the app at all? I leave the app open on my tablet and never lose connection. Takes just a few seconds to locate and adjust faders. The real challenge for most folks with digital mixers sans physical control surfaces will be developing a workflow that makes sense and is efficient. Like I said before, I have found the combo of a laptop at FOH and an android tablet on stage to be efficient and convenient. Both devices are connected to a dedicated wireless network and have the XAir app open and synced. I can adjust nearly anything in seconds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Unalaska Posted May 12, 2015 Author Members Share Posted May 12, 2015 If I only need to adjust something every hour or two, well, why burn the battery for that? Really the band should have the tablet with them but this was the first night out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dedmeet Posted May 13, 2015 Members Share Posted May 13, 2015 Provided you have power-saving enabled on the android tablet, it will basically go into standby after a short time of inactivity and suspend the open apps. As soon as you wake up the device, app opens and you are good to go. My cheap Samsung tablet only burned about 20% of its battery over a 4 hour show the other night this way. Now, if you close the app, then you will have to reconnect and resync every time. That is a pain in the backside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Unalaska Posted May 13, 2015 Author Members Share Posted May 13, 2015 How am I supposed to surf eBay for a different mixer while mixing then? Besides, I've got games I want to play.... anyone want to join me in candy crush? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members nchangin Posted May 14, 2015 Members Share Posted May 14, 2015 How am I supposed to surf eBay for a different mixer while mixing then? Besides, I've got games I want to play.... anyone want to join me in candy crush? Well if they get to do it at the office.....why not remotely? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members nchangin Posted May 14, 2015 Members Share Posted May 14, 2015 meh after reading this analog is still king. Seems the same BS as mackie had going small format digital.....it only works with X equip when it's designed to work with X Y and Z equip..... Maybe after 5 years it will be ready for the mainstream bar band if they exist. I am surprised to see this though and that much lag? Just not acceptable. But for now good ole analog no worries, unpack, plug and play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Unalaska Posted May 14, 2015 Author Members Share Posted May 14, 2015 Went to a Sunday night jam a while ago and the 3pc band had a mackie dl1608 as well as a new driverack. A friend of mine was sitting out front with an iPad mini and a standard iPad. One ran the board and the other controlling the driverack. You ou know how bar bands and churches have the WORST gain structure issues. iPads made things worse. iPad control of a driverack? And you let someone who doesn't know wtf they're doing adjust? I did a basic crossover and HPF where needede. Tried to fix the gain structure between the mixer, amps and driverack. The main issues was the mixers output was clipping the drpa, the amps attenuators were set to what the wizard told the user (way too low).and the mixers channels and output were clipping. Fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dedmeet Posted May 14, 2015 Members Share Posted May 14, 2015 A little background before I chime in some more: I am an IT guy by day, so learning new digital systems and mastering them in short order is second nature to me. That said, I have been doing live sound a looong time and have mixed on everything from Peavey Mk iii boards to a Soundcraft VI. I am by no means a Behringer fanboi - in truth, I've been a vocal critic of their record of 'borrowing' product designs and ideas. That said, I am pretty seriously impressed with the X32 ad XR18 mixers and now have quite a few successful shows under my belt with each. There is good and bad in digital vs analog in more areas than just live sound and you can write many a thesis on weighing the pros and cons of each. For my personal needs and skill set, moving my audio mixing into the digital realm is simply the next logical and inevitable step. The biggest pill for most folks to swallow is learning to 'think digital.' Anything digital can be reprogrammed in nearly any fashion within the limits of the hardware so long as it makes some sense to the folks using it and the task it is intended for. For guys who cut their sound guy teeth in the analog domain, sometimes crossing the digital divide can be daunting, especially once the immediacy and tactile comfort of quality analog consoles gives way to the relatively sterile smooth glass control via portable devices. The trick for me on the XR18 specifically was to develop a workflow that suited my needs and accommodated the performers for whom I mixed. Bump music at FOH via a 1/8 inch to RCA cable was replaced by a bluetooth receiver in the rack with the XR18 playing tunes from my phone or laptop. If you really need to solo channels and listen to them in headphones, connect an IEM unit to the headphone jack. Inconvenient, perhaps, but, hey, no snakes to haul around and if one control unit soaks up someone's drink, you just grab the next one. My usual load-out with the XR18 is one phone, one tablet, one PC. Now, the one thing that sold me on the XR18 over some competitors is the fact that I am not locked in to a specific vendor or device for controlling the mixer. So far, I have successfully used iPad, Android tablets, Android phones, and two Windows PCs to control the mixer both via wired and wireless connections. Also, Behringer chose to make the system open enough to permit 3rd party development. meh after reading this analog is still king. Well, hate to break it to you, but that king was dethroned quite some time ago. Analog will be around a long time, but every show I have been to in the last few years had an array of digital mixers at FOH. I still have a few analog boards left, but they are all headed to the donation list and CL for sale forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dedmeet Posted May 14, 2015 Members Share Posted May 14, 2015 One ran the board and the other controlling the driverack Controlling the Driverack?!? This is clearly an example of where the ease of remote access to a digital device may *not* be a good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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