Big Band Reinforcement

[wesg]

Hi, All!

 

I have been reinforcing Jazz trios, Dixieland groups and half-sized Big Bands occasionally for the last year or two. It has been going pretty well; my "formula" is to throw a single speaker up on a pole behind the band, mic the singer, and give the band leader a talking mic (usually a beta 58) that doubles as a solo mic for the clarinet. I play piano in these bands, and I keep the piano, bass, and drums out of the PA -- bass and keys run from the back of the stage, point out through the band. Everything self-mixes, and the soloist can judge his volume based on his ability to hear the mains (the single speaker at the back of the band).

 

I have a gig coming up near the end of June with a much larger group. I've rehearsed with this group a number of times now and played a gig as a sub last year. It's a pretty typical big band: drums, piano, bass, four trumpets, four bones, five saxes, and a vocalist. The venue is pseudo outdoors, in a large limestone fort about the size of a football field. We will be under a tent, with 250 guests. It's not a concert, we are entertainment. My goal is to *reinforce* the band as necessary and as little as possible: the instruments should be able to provide most or all of the sound; if there are instruments in the PA, I don't want it to sound like they are coming from the speakers, if you know what I mean.

 

This band has set up a couple of different ways over the years. Last year, and in current rehearsals, they are doing a row of saxophones, a wide row of bones and trumpets, and then the rhythm section splays out across the back. Are there sonic advantages to setting up differently? For example, I see many bands (eg Ellington) set up with the rhythm section stage right, saxes up front, bones in the middle, and trumpets in the rear.

 

Any advice for handling solo mics? There are times when a sax player solos with a flute, and a trumpet player solos with a muted trumpet. My thought was to provide switched microphones on booms, and to instruct the trumpet player to stay about 2' away. Is giving a player a switch a good idea, or a recipe for disaster?

 

My mixing plan, excluding solo mics, is to get the drummer to play, and bring him up in the mains so that I can just barely tell he's in them - then turn him down about 5dB. Same with the bass and piano. After that, get the band to play, add enough of the front mics so that they are on but I can't specifically hear them - in case a player points his horn at one during a solo - and leave the mix alone (I can't baby sit, I'll be playing). I'm hoping this plan adds a bit of presence and allows the sound to carry a bit farther (over people instead of through them) without messing up the players' ability to self-mix.

 

Similarly, foldback. When I played with this group at an outdoor gig last year, I had a hard time hearing the vocalist and saxes from the back row. Indoors it's not a problem. Should I maybe throw a couple of wedges across the front (vocalist will need something for sure) and add a fill for the rhythm section? Given the band size (and what they are used to), I'm not sure I can get away with my put-the-mains-behind-the-band trick.

 

My plan is to mic the kit with a single overhead and kick mic. I haven't decided how to mic the rest of the band, yet. I am thinking that pair of cardiod mics a couple of feet in front of the sax section will be plenty, pointed down a bit so they don't pick up too much brass. I'm not sure if I should use dynamics or condensers there.

 

I'm not entirely sure how to handle the band leader (alto sax). He has a wireless headworn mic and turns it on when he is talking and sometimes while playing the flute. I think I will set him to the same level in the mains and foldback so he can hear what he is doing, and run it post-fader in case I need to duck his channel mid-song.

 

Here's the band, if you're curious. I was subbing in on piano that day, this was the gig where I was struggling to hear to the singer and woodwinds. Not the best situation in general, really annoying when you don't know the arrangements and are sight-reading half the gig. Grr.

 

Gear -- I have six Yorkville NX55Ps, and a 10 channel mixer with two aux sends for this gig. I plan to stick a DRPX between the mixer and the mains for GEQ and I'll leave AFS on just in case somebody points a mic at a speaker. I haven't figured out mics yet, once I decide what I need I'll set out to acquire them. Probably 58s or 57s, assuming I can find some with switches. The singer will probably supply her own, if she does not, she will get my beta 58. I have some GEQ I will bring along that can be used as channel inserts if I need more than the simple treble/bass controls on my mixer.

 

Comments? If this was a rock band, I know it would not be enough rig for the gig, but I think it should be plenty for Big Band. In fact, I'm worried about over-reinforcing.

 

Thanks for any insight.

 

Wes

[Pro Sound Guy]

Less is more.

 

[agedhorse]

Yes, less is more. A speaker left & right behind the band might be better as the size grows.

 

 

 

I dint like mics with switches, just set solo mic levels and work the mics.

 

 

 

I like mics on the reeds, might share where appropriate, like sac and clarinet.

[DanCostello]

Similarly, foldback. When I played with this group at an outdoor gig last year, I had a hard time hearing the vocalist and saxes from the back row. Indoors it's not a problem. Should I maybe throw a couple of wedges across the front (vocalist will need something for sure) and add a fill for the rhythm section? Given the band size (and what they are used to), I'm not sure I can get away with my put-the-mains-behind-the-band trick.

 

Yeah, I'd try to avoid having the mains behind the band if you can help it. There's clearly a ton of bleed in that singer's microphone and making upstage mains even louder isn't going to make that better.

 

Here's the band, if you're curious. I was subbing in on piano that day, this was the gig where I was struggling to hear to the singer and woodwinds. Not the best situation in general, really annoying when you don't know the arrangements and are sight-reading half the gig. Grr.

 

 

Comments? If this was a rock band, I know it would not be enough rig for the gig, but I think it should be plenty for Big Band. In fact, I'm worried about over-reinforcing.

 

Hmm... I don't know if this is helpful or not, but you've got an uphill battle. That horn section is really, really bad. I watched all of the band videos on that youtube channel and most of it was unlistenable. If you had that girl (or even that guy) singing on every song, I'd suggest trying to base the mix around the drums, bass, vocals, and keys, and just use the horns as a texture, to whatever extent it's possible. They mix themselves like that in part of the Ding Dong the Witch is Dead song and there it sounds ok. But if a bunch of songs have the horns carrying the melody, then that isn't going to work. Frankly, with a band that's that inconsistent, I don't know that there's much you can do mixing from the stage.

 

-Dan.

[Mike M]

First of all "hats off" to the girl singer that sang "You're Nobody...." for keeping it together despite the bass player stepping all over the changes in the bridge the first time through... She also has a pleasant voice.

 

It is interesting that some of the first "real" sound gigs that I ever did were with a bigband. It has been my experience (as a sax player and sound provider) that some of the of the bigband set ups were more for "looks" rather than practicality.

 

My suggestions running sound while playing in the band:

- a little verb on the vocal mic (no one wants to sing dry)

- mics (with switches) for the solo chairs - tell them to switch it on/off when soloing....(It has been my experience that muso's for the most part are "mic dumb" ie; they'll put it on for their solo but neglect to shut it off when they are through...in that case, after being reminded of this after the first few tunes I usually leave it off....)

- bass and keys in a monitor for the vocalist

- bass & drums & a little keys (one OH mic for the kit) in at least two monitors around the band to keep the group together and for the instrumental soloists

 

That is the most that I would do if there is no-one mixing from out front.

 

My suggestions come from my experience as a sax player in local/regional bigbands and as a sound provider for such.

 

Mike M

 

[wesg]

Thanks, guys.

 

Dan - good point about the mike bleed. And you're right about the uphill battle, I was debating even making the link, but figured I am better off getting honest advice than hiding behind anonymity. It's my understanding that they've been struggling with revolving membership for some time...I started rehearsing with them a few months ago, there have been some improvements that I'm really happy with (especially the mix in the rehearsal room), but I admit, I'm quite nervous about the end of June timeline for that gig. My plan is to hit the woodshed as soon as I have the songlist and make sure the rhythm section is top notch, then hope for the best. The gig in the video, I got the charts 19 hours before stick down, luckily I had been to a previous show, so I had an idea where to concentrate my learning.

 

Mike M - hats off to the girl, indeed. That was the only time I've met her, but she struck me as a really talented and professional young lady. Thanks, also, for the mixing tips. Believe it or not, I hadn't thought to put bass in the monitor for the singer. Which is ironic, because when I sing with my rock band, it's the third thing I ask for (right after me and kick).

[agedhorse]

By pulling the speakers left and right, you can mitigate the bleed from the PA. The horns will be a challenge no matter what however. Maybe less is more here too?

[wesg]

Thanks Andy. That was freakin' hilarious.

 

Wes

[agedhorse]

Actually, I will try to bury parts that are distracting from the overall ensemble and highlight the better parts as much as possible to get the best compromise. Hopefully the result is less obnoxious than a more "proper" mix.

[dbMontana]

Actually' date=' I will try to bury parts that are distracting from the overall ensemble and highlight the better parts as much as possible to get the best compromise. Hopefully the result is less obnoxious than a more "proper" mix. [/quote']

 

I fess I do the same. I just file it under "making the good sound as good as possible".

[6Imzadi]

would you allow more is better?

This was recorded at sound check. Everything mic'd. Inside a hangar.

[agedhorse]

Everything mic'd CAN sound better IF everybody works with you rather than against you, including placement of mics/elements, cable routing, etc. Often this is not the case and the results can be staggeringly poor.

[wesg]

Well, the big day is tomorrow, I'm quite looking forward to this. The band is sounding better -- hopefully the horns can stay tight outdoors -- and I know the material pretty well now, as I've been recording rehearsals.

 

I've reviewed the advice in here (thanks!), chatted with the band leader, and thought about what I'm doing, my plan is now

 

- Pull the FOH speakers left and right as much as I can get away with and toe them in a bit

- Give the singer one monitor offset from the center and sort of shooting across the front row and a really long mic cord so she can walk around. I tried that at rehearsal and it's worked well. Maybe I'll add a second monitor at the other side of the stage. (Why does the local sound guy use two monitors firing across each other at ~100 degrees?)

- Four 57s - sax solo (far right), trumpet solo (Harmon mute), flute solo (far left), one on the bari

- Drum OH and Kick mics

- Band leader's headworn mic

 

I'm "mixing" from stage so my plan is to put a bit of piano, bass and bari, and lot of singer in the FOH, turn the solo mics up so that you can hear them if the player is "using" them, and teach the flute/sax doubler how to move the mic into position when picking up the flute. Then I will set the vocalist and rhythm section volume during sound check and leave it alone all night. There is a good chance there will be little or no rhythm section actually making it to the PA.

 

I normally play with a monitor just-for-piano, a la keyboard amp. I'd like to keep this, it's how the band normally hears me, and it fixes my need for "more me" (big band piano is often VERY quiet out front). But I'd also like a control-room feed to allow me to pick up any eggregious problems with the FOH mix, like a mis-pointed solo mic..............

Any ideas here, guys? The two that jump to mind are to just use two speakers, or to use a single speaker and feed it both piano and control room. I don't have another aux send. Any potential phasing(?) gotchas? Two line input feeds might present a ground-loop issue also, the grounds are connected together internally. I might have to DI the piano into the speaker's mic input. (Piano has separate outputs for the mixer)

 

Managing the band leader's headworn mic is likely to have me riding his fader between songs all night long. He plays flute and alto and talks into it a lot. He leaves it in place to play flute and flips it behind himself (pointing at the trumpets) when he plays sax. I think I will have to watch what instrument he picks up and guess the right level during the count-off for each song.

 

I'll give the mics a bit of presence in the singer's monitor if the FOH can't be heard from the band location. Hopefully enough to let the soloist know his/her instrument is aimed okay.

 

I'll be giving the singer a bit of reverb. I have noticed other guys giving solo mics reverb. Often it's too much IMO. Maybe I will use a little?

 

The rack I'm bringing has a DriveRack PX in it for FOH GEQ. I don't think I'll need much (if any) EQ given my mains are NX55Ps. Any point in rolling the bottom couple of sliders off? I'm also going to enable AFS, music-width, with a short auto-lift in case the singer points the mic at a speaker while I'm busy playing. I don't think any other DRPX features will be of use.

 

I decided to eschew mics with switches (although I will bring some in case) because I don't want somebody flicking one on when I'm busy and can't turn it down right away if needed.

 

Wes

[agedhorse]

I wouldn't mess with a CR mix, what are you going to do or how are you going to troubleshoot during the gig while playing?

 

 

 

Get things set the best you can and soldier through.

[wesg]

Andy - CR output is the same as summed mains, just on a different master slider (at least I think it is - I never use this, so will have to check the routing in the manual to be sure). My primary goal is to hear what's going out from the mains so I can fix it if there is an egregious problem (e.g. flute solo mic gets moved 8" from a trombone bell). But I need the piano to be louder at my position than it would be coming from FOH.

 

The reason I was thinking about using the CR out is that I can turn it up/down as a unit without affecting the rest of the mix, so I could just slide it up to get the vocals pleasant where I'm at, which should also make it possible to hear any blatt blatt noises.

 

I *have* observed that this seems to be more complexity than might be rational.

 

My worry really is that somebody will do something dumb, it will sound really bad, and I won't know because I might not be in a position to hear the FOH speakers. I don't know how far back I can get them. This band likes the rhythm section all the way at the back of the band...sometimes just hearing the singer is a bit of a struggle. My preference is to be beside the band, stage right, with the piano close to the audience, and the bass/drums nestled in behind me. I have not given up trying to convince the band leader to set up like that. I think it would help the horns be tighter, too; 4 trumpets and 4 bones is too wide for the middle row IMO.

[wesg]

The gig went GREAT, thanks for the all the advice. The band leader was very happy, and the singer (a sub from another band with a ton of experience) was ecstatic with the clarity of my system. I did not solicit that feedback. I am pretty confident this will lead to more work for me with this band; there might even be a very small niche for me to carve out in this relatively small town doing this type of work. (BTW the band was pretty good last night, much tighter than the show I played with them last year. Although a little less in places would have been a little more).

 

I decided to not bother with the CR out, and just used what I could hear from the back of the band, plus feedback from the band leader, to line check and build my mix. The band leader forgot his headworn mic, which made me very happy. I gave him a Beta 58 which doubled duty as a solo mic for his alto and flute.

 

I used 57s for solo mics on the tenor, other flute, and trumpets. I asked the flute player to get right on top of the 57 when soloing, and asked the trumpet players to only use the solo mic for harmon mute solos. The mic was pointed between 1st and 2nd trumpet. I didn't bother with the bari mic, and I had to leave the overhead drum mic off: I already had enough via bleed. You don't need much. The vocalist and horns got a barely-perceivable amount of reverb.

 

The space the band was assigned was pretty tight, I wound up setting up shaped a bit like a pie slice: 3 rows of horns (5 saxes, 4 trombones, 4 trumpets) with the rhythm section in the back. I wasn't allowed to set up until 3:30, which made a 5:00 showtime tight, but doable.

 

I put two NX55Ps up on poles as high as I could get them, gave one to the singer in the front row, and kept one for myself as a piano amp. Due to the space constraints, I found a new monitor position for my piano; a wedge slightly behind me and off to one side. I really like how that sounded, and it didn't trigger any "the piano is too loud" moaning from the trumpets.

 

The mains were even with the trumpets but not off enough to the side. I had some minor squeaks during setup/sound check which prompted me to disable auto-release on the DRPX AFS. I also pulled the 4K slider down 3dB, toed the speakers out a hair, and rolled a wee bit of high end off the singer's microphone. That was the end of it, except for one squeak mid-show which the AFS clamped on almost instantly. I don't know what was going on up front, I was playing a piano solo at the time.

 

Wes

[wesg]

BTW, the gig also offered the opportunity to learn from the DJ. She had Peavey 15s sitting on the ground on top of foam tiles with another speaker (presumably a sub) on top of a road case. If the goal was to limit coverage to the dance floor area, she succeeded, but folks had trouble hearing speeches. Whatever wireless microphone she supplied also cut out obnoxiously once it got more than 50 feet or so from her receiver....and the handling noise was almost as loud as the speech. I don't think I will ever do a gig like this where I don't have a wired backup ready to go. I will also make sure if I buy wireless I buy quality. She seem unconcerned about the technical difficulties she was having; I would have been mortified.

 

I also learned that I really, really want a "side fill" for the rhythm section if I can't hear the mains directly and we're set up behind the trumpets. It can be really hard to hear what's going on up front. I was thinking before that I would need a separate aux send for this, but whatever's in the front monitor would be fine. I could adjust the relative levels by tweaking the sensitivity knob on the sidefill speaker. It wouldn't need to be loud, just loud enough that I don't need to crane to hear the front monitor.

 

Wes

[wesg]

[DanCostello]

Andy - CR output is the same as summed mains, just on a different master slider (at least I think it is - I never use this, so will have to check the routing in the manual to be sure). My primary goal is to hear what's going out from the mains so I can fix it if there is an egregious problem (e.g. flute solo mic gets moved 8" from a trombone bell). But I need the piano to be louder at my position than it would be coming from FOH.

 

The reason I was thinking about using the CR out is that I can turn it up/down as a unit without affecting the rest of the mix, so I could just slide it up to get the vocals pleasant where I'm at, which should also make it possible to hear any blatt blatt noises.

 

I *have* observed that this seems to be more complexity than might be rational.

 

My worry really is that somebody will do something dumb, it will sound really bad, and I won't know because I might not be in a position to hear the FOH speakers. I don't know how far back I can get them. This band likes the rhythm section all the way at the back of the band...sometimes just hearing the singer is a bit of a struggle. My preference is to be beside the band, stage right, with the piano close to the audience, and the bass/drums nestled in behind me. I have not given up trying to convince the band leader to set up like that. I think it would help the horns be tighter, too; 4 trumpets and 4 bones is too wide for the middle row IMO.

 

Typically, the Control Room output is affected by the AFL/PFL/Solo bus. So, if you don't have anything solo'd then yes, you could very well get the same thing that's coming out of the main mix. But if you solo something, the solo bus will take priority and you'll only hear what's solo'd.

 

BTW, the gig also offered the opportunity to learn from the DJ. She had Peavey 15s sitting on the ground on top of foam tiles with another speaker (presumably a sub) on top of a road case. If the goal was to limit coverage to the dance floor area, she succeeded, but folks had trouble hearing speeches. Whatever wireless microphone she supplied also cut out obnoxiously once it got more than 50 feet or so from her receiver....and the handling noise was almost as loud as the speech. I don't think I will ever do a gig like this where I don't have a wired backup ready to go. I will also make sure if I buy wireless I buy quality. She seem unconcerned about the technical difficulties she was having; I would have been mortified.

 

Wow, what a hack.

 

-Dan.

[agedhorse]

CR outs can work differently on different mixers, since they are of limited value even in good situations I generally avoid them all together.

[wesg]

Good points in there about CR outs, I have never used them (except during "play time") and hadn't given the signal routing enough thought. The big board I normally use does have PFLs which take over the CR out. The small board I used for this gig doesn't (which is kind of a paint)...after reading the manual carefully, I think the only things on that you can route on THAT board to CR out is the same as main out (main bus + effects bus), OR the aux in RCA jacks. Kind of useless if you ask me. I would rather they had included an aux 1 send fader rather than a CR out. If the mixer was 30 years old, I crack it open and change that...but you can't modify electronics anymore.

[Mike M]

First of all I'm glad that the gig worked out well for you.

 

Back when I graduated college ('81) there were a ton of community big bands (such as the one that you play in) in my area that I played with. I remember that Shure columns and four channel mixers were the norm....big and "tinny sounding". Going into the late 80's and early 90's I found that most of those bands switched to box-style mixers with speakers-on-sticks.

 

The most impressive box-mixer-speaker combos I played through at that time was a band near Cape Cod. The leader had a Soundtech (I think that was it) box mixer with Yorkville M160 speakers (I remember the yorkville processor sitting on top of the mixer). Man, that small rig sounded amazingly big for its size. The vocalist and horn solos sounded rich and full.... I played several gigs with that band and was impressed each time.

 

Back then (in my area) those bands did not use monitors.....

 

The last time that I mixed a bigband I had my usual FOH cabs plus four monitors (mix 1 in front and mix 2 the opposite side of the rhythm section...the rhythm section was off to one side of the band). To avoid phasing issues and keep the band together I put some bass and drum kit (one OH for the kit) in the monitors on the opposite side of the band in mix 2.

I put bass, piano, vocals in the mix in front of the band (mix 1) to support the soloists and vocalist.

 

I remember back in the 80's the bands were lucky enough to have a PA at all!

 

Things seem to be getting more complicated these days......monitors, more mixes, everything mic'ed.....

 

How many monitor mixes did Benny Goodman, Harry James, etc. have back in the 30's/40's?

They still sounded great though....

 

Just sayin'...

 

Mike M

 

 

[agedhorse]

They didn't sound good, they sounded GREAT!!!

[wesg]

You're sure right about that, Andy. They sure did sound great! At least their records did. I never had the chance to hear them first-hand.

 

I've studied 1960s video from Ellington, modern video of Ray Anthony, etc, to try and learn from folks who really knew what they were doing. There sure wasn't a lot of sound equipment on stage.....that said, I was really glad to have monitors for a gig I did on Friday with a different band (7 pc Dixieland). The wind just "took" the sound from from the horns, the drummer and I both played as quietly as we could and STILL couldn't hear the horns worth a darn. Luckily the sound guy noticed my frantic pointing between the first two songs and gave us just enough of what we needed. Which wasn't much, since they were really positioned for the horns.

 

The 2012 Ray Anthony footage I watched was really interesting, actually. They use mics (58s and something else) with round base stands. No booms. The sax players shuffle the mics around in anticipation of their solos. Unused mics get pointed straight up in the air. Ray grabs whatever mic he wants and talks into it. One wedge for the whole band, near the rhythm section. I suspect the only thing in it is the piano. FOH speakers on sticks at the front of the band and off to the side.

 

One thing I've noticed in common with a lot of the "old pro" bands - rhythm sections are off to the side with the piano towards the front and stages are sloped. I wish I knew why the band leaders I work with are so intent on having a back-row rhythm section. It seems to me that putting us off to the side gets us a fighting chance of hearing the horns outdoors without monitors.

[agedhorse]

Early in my career, I had the pleasure of working with both Cab Calloway and Count Bassie big bands, as well as Bob Hope and his medium sized big band. Rhythm sections front near the center (of course with Bassie, the piano dominated the stage). Some of the best sounding bands I have ever worked with, easy to get a good sound without a lot of work. That's the kind of stuff I do miss.

 

I also did an awful lot of trad jazz, maybe 15 years at one of the largest jazz festivals on the west coast, some really great players and great bands. About 10 or so years ago, over a period of 5 years, I provided FOH audio for a series of Jim Cullum Jazz band shows, about 50 of which got turned into finished product for the NPR syndicated radio show "Riverwalk Jazz". Generally, piano was stage right of center with bass (or sometimes tuba) back in the crook of the piano, with guitar (if used) up front in the crook, horns and reeds stage left of center. Great band with lots of guest artists, but the schedule and expectations were pretty grueling in combination with some mildly over the top egos of the recording team.