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will setup handle 1000 people outside for multiple bands


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Hi guys,

 

we just got a gig providing sound for 1000 people outdoor show with multiple bands.

I would like opinions on if my system is adequate or what more would we need.

THE equipment list are as follows

1 pair JBL srx722

1 pair JBL srx715f

1 LAPGRUPPEN fp6400 to power 722

1 LABGRUPPEN FP+ 4000 bridged to power srx715

1 ASHLEY XR1001 CROSSOVER

4 YORKVILLE LS800P SUBS

PRESONUS STUDIOLIVE 24.4.2

EV SX250 AND ELX112P FOR MONITORS

MACKIE SRM450 SIDEFILLS

all inputs will Greatly appreciated.

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Your numbers of speakers don't match what you say you are doing with your amps first of all

 

Second, you are driving the living snot out of the SRX-715's bridged like that. 2000 watts per box leaves no margin for accidents or even momentary lapses in good judgement.

 

Will it be enough? It all depends on how loud you need to be. For the outside events of that size that I used to do it wouldn't be even close.

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Depending on how adept you are with your SL 24.4.2 and what-all you're facing with the multiple band situation, mixing monitors seemingly on the FOH board, and being that board, I'll suggest that might be a daunting task... especially if you've gotta hit monitor mixes on the fly. Personally, I'm a fan of split mixes for festival situations, and I'm a big fan of all analogue in the monitor mix position, especially if it's complex change-overs... ie: changing backline gear, lots of mic shuffling, and more than a couple of monitor mixes and I've gotta hit the monitor mixes on the fly.

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You mention nothing about power management, though if you were to run 1 SRX715 box per channel on the amp it would be just about right (I wouldn't recommend any more anyway).

 

Why would you want to run the amp bridged then limit back the power. Kind of a round about approach.

 

I think you have a collection of pretty decent gear, but just not really appropriate for the task. If you had say 4 x SRX-722, run 2 boxes per side on the 6400 (2 ohm per channel total load) that would just about do it, and they couple pretty well. Subs may be "ok", depends on how much low end you need.

 

I wouldn't choose that board to do a festival, kind of hard to read all the LEDs unless you are in a tent with a darkened top. In fact, for a "hit the ground running on the fly" console, I kind of prefer a good analog console like the Yamaha PM series or Soundcraft, or Crest, etc. Everything is right where you need it, no guessing or chasing layers or difficulty reading displays on the fly. It can be done on a digital console, but you will need to be much more attentive to what's going on, what layer you are on (doesn't apply to the Presonus), and set changes are greatly helped by writing starting default templates. I did 25 years of festivals with as many as 12 acts a day and 10-15 minute set changes. Everybody needs to be on the same team for things to go smoothly and it be a good time. Nothing worse than sh*ting the bed part way through a festival. Now you have a BUNCH of bands pissed at you, not to mention the promoter, the vendors, security, and patrons.

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Unalaska, please check the gear before you reply.

THE JBL SRX 722 IS RATED @2400 WATTS PROGRAM AS PER JBL, AND IS A 4 OHM BOX, AND THE LABGRUPPEN FP6400 IS RATED @2300 WATTS 4 OHMS . SEEMS LIKE A GREAT MATCH TO ME, BUT I COULD BE WRONG

THE SRX715 IS RATED @1600 PROGRAM AT 8 OHMS,

THE LABGRUPPEN FP+4000 IS RATED @ 800 WATTS 8 OHMS ,1600@ 4 OHMS , AND 4000 BRIDGED @ 4 OHMS . THE AMP IS ALSO EQUIP WITH DIP SWITCHES SO YOU CAN LIMIT THE GAIN AND VPL IN BRIDGE MONO MODE SO THE SPEAKERS WON.T BE OVERPOWERED.

THE YORKVILLE LS800P ARE POWERED SUBWOOFERS, SO WHERE ARE THE AMP AND SPEAKER MISMATCH ?

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Is this a first time for this festival, or has it been an annual event for some-odd years, and are the organizers new to this sort of thing, or have experience with a few of these festivals? The reason I ask concerns "less apparent details" like power, lighting, backline, advanced band stageplots & input lists, staging, weather contingency, venue access and parking for your vehicle, insurance, etc... I use a 20ft. box truck to transport my festival rig, and typically for relatively small festivals the truck is packed full front to back and bottom to top... the PA system takes up the front approx. 6ft. of the truck, and the rest is consumed with all the other stuff it takes to make it happen on my part. I've found with especially "new events and/or a new group of organizers" it's much better to ask the questions about the "less apparent details" the sooner the better rather than the day of the show. Like: make double sure somebody's turned off the automatic sprinkler system if the venue grounds are so equipped.

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I don't see enough coverage for 1000 people outside. Given the general parameters of between 10 and 20 square feet per person for an outdoor festival setup, you're looking at coverage for 100x100 feet to 100x200 feet. That's a lot to cover for four speakers. How are you planning to arrange them, and what is your goal for sound level at various distances and widths?

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the festival is an annual event, the venue has adequate lights, power, stage area, organizers have insurance,i have insurance, and there is plenty of parking space.

A bit of back ground, this festival is held annually at different venues where concerts are held.

another sound provider was hired last year and he had 4 jrx225, 2 mpro single 18 subs, and 3 Yamaha single 18 subs.

it did not go well last year so this year we are doing it.

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Unalaska, please check the gear before you reply.

THE JBL SRX 722 IS RATED @2400 WATTS PROGRAM AS PER JBL, AND IS A 4 OHM BOX, AND THE LABGRUPPEN FP6400 IS RATED @2300 WATTS 4 OHMS . SEEMS LIKE A GREAT MATCH TO ME, BUT I COULD BE WRONG

THE SRX715 IS RATED @1600 PROGRAM AT 8 OHMS,

THE LABGRUPPEN FP+4000 IS RATED @ 800 WATTS 8 OHMS ,1600@ 4 OHMS , AND 4000 BRIDGED @ 4 OHMS . THE AMP IS ALSO EQUIP WITH DIP SWITCHES SO YOU CAN LIMIT THE GAIN AND VPL IN BRIDGE MONO MODE SO THE SPEAKERS WON.T BE OVERPOWERED.

THE YORKVILLE LS800P ARE POWERED SUBWOOFERS, SO WHERE ARE THE AMP AND SPEAKER MISMATCH ?

 

Not sure why the ALL CAPS response, but that's considered rude. If there's a technical reason for this, please state it otherwise please don't use all caps. As your first sentence was composed normally, I don't see why you did that.

 

The problem is that you're assuming these speakers should be run at program power. That's not generally a good idea at all...it's 2x RMS/continuous, which as Agedhorse mentioned leaves you zero margin for error. Limiting gain via the amp's DIP switches doesn't limit the output if there's an accidental input overdrive...it only reduces the gain. So it's still entirely possible to have something go horribly wrong that can destroy your rig in spectacular and expensive fashion. 1x to 1.5x rms/continuous would be far safer, and note that all the extra power you're currently planning to use won't buy you much useable sound level.

 

I'd recommend you keep the amps and add another pair of each speaker, or preferably redo the entire rig to have four per side of one or the other model. Or consider a delay stack in the crowd...that part depends on the width and depth of the area you need to cover, which isn't mentioned thus far.

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I started writing normally until I got to JBL which needed to be capitalized so I just l used all caps.

I was not trying to rude. I plan to point the 722 straight forward and use the 715 for coverage.

we ran those srx715 with fp6400 for years with no problems. that's 1300 watts to each.

most of the crowd will be close to the stage.

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The problem is that you're assuming these speakers should be run at program power. That's not generally a good idea at all...it's 2x RMS/continuous, which as Agedhorse mentioned leaves you zero margin for error.

 

I'm not sure I know what run "at" program power necessary means. But run "with" program power is the manufacturer's suggested amp size. Amps are almost never, never, never actually run "at" their continuous output if music is the source.

 

 

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The problem with running at 2x the rated continuous power (or "program" power in a festival situation is that you probably don't have enough PA so you will be running things a lot harder than you think you will because that's the nature of not enough rig for the gig. I'm sure the folks who did it last year didn't go into it with the intention of it not going well either.

 

I understand the power limiting nature of the LG amps, and if you limit them back you will buy yourself at least a little margin for "oops" moments.

 

Generally, powering at between 1 and 1.5x the continuous rating of the speaker is the best compromise between reliability and maximum performance. Since power compression losses are very significant at power over the rated RMS (continuous) rating of the driver, the performance increase falls off very quickly versus power applied.

 

Since repairs to the SRX series drivers are expensive (recones using factory parts run a bit over $200 each), being just a little conservative pays off in the long run.

 

My bigger system's top cabinets has 64 LF drivers and 32 large format HF drivers, and a dozen sub drivers, so if an accident were to happen and I was not reasonable conservative with both power levels and protection algorithms, I would be in the hole many, many thousands of dollars.

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Assuming you can center cluster them I'd be happy enough with that "subbage" for a somewhat loud event. Two pairs of the SRX722's powered at 1200-1800 watts each is definitely the way to go if you can get another pair. Very hard to find any for sale though I'm told - folks that have them consider them keepers. You could probably get away with using the one pair for the far coverage (get them up 8 feet) and use the 715's for filling in the near center (6 feet up toed in 45 degrees). You'd probably need center fills with two pairs of 722's anyways even though nobody's gonna want to be too near them subs (20+ feet "zone of death" biggrin.gif ). Assume it's not assigned seating I always just assume those who want it loud will sit up front and those that don't will sit towards the rear so don't stress about super even coverage at this level - heck I've seen folks set up their chairs 100' back even when only 1-200 showed up at a 100x100 outdoor venue where I just had a pair of RCF 310a's and my smaller <200 peeps coverage "subs".

 

Don't think you ever mentioned the genre? Metal? Family friendly folk music where most of that 1000 are walking around doing other stuff? Huge difference in what's needed to cover those. At the latter I often have folks come up to me and thank me for not being an SPL areshat wink.png .

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the festival is an annual event, the venue has adequate lights, power, stage area, organizers have insurance,i have insurance, and there is plenty of parking space.

A bit of back ground, this festival is held annually at different venues where concerts are held.

another sound provider was hired last year and he had 4 jrx225, 2 mpro single 18 subs, and 3 Yamaha single 18 subs.

it did not go well last year so this year we are doing it.

 

Well, the bar has been set pretty low ;)

 

Your system will walk all over that crap any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

 

It is my opinion that you will be pushing things pretty hard, but you should be able to get a decent sound out of what you have. It won't be rock concert loud, but many festivals aren't.

 

Again, you are going to blow away what they had there last year. Those subs are truly beasts in their class, and the SRX tops remain clear as can be even when pushed hard.

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Road Ranger, you hit the nail right on the head as to how I plan to deploy the speakers.

this is a Caribbean festival, there will venders selling island food, arts and crafts, clothing, etc.

there will be a calypso band, steel band, salsa band, and reggae bands. I guess maybe I can run the SRX715 stereo on the fp+ 4000 which is 800 watts @ 8 ohms, but I find the boxes sound so much better with extra power. I've had those boxes for years and run them on the FP6400 which is 1300 watts @8 ohms and they sound great with zero problems.

 

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The problem with running at 2x the rated continuous power (or "program" power in a festival situation is that you probably don't have enough PA so you will be running things a lot harder than you think you will because that's the nature of not enough rig for the gig. I'm sure the folks who did it last year didn't go into it with the intention of it not going well either.

 

I understand the power limiting nature of the LG amps, and if you limit them back you will buy yourself at least a little margin for "oops" moments.

 

Generally, powering at between 1 and 1.5x the continuous rating of the speaker is the best compromise between reliability and maximum performance. Since power compression losses are very significant at power over the rated RMS (continuous) rating of the driver, the performance increase falls off very quickly versus power applied.

 

 

OK ... you are confusing me more. So are you saying that by using even less power you won't be running as hard? And are you suggesting that power compression doesn't happen with lower wattages? That's just plain nonsense. :) Power compression happens because of what went on before and not because of what's happening now. So unless you know precisely what went on before before you can't possible make this statement. You're pretty much gonna get what you get, so I wouldn't worry about it.

 

I agree that the size of this system doesn't meet my expectations for a 1000 peep audience outdoors, but I have no idea what the expectations are. Either way you are gonna get what you get, but you are gonna get a bit more with bigger amps. Not gonna make much real difference either way, but if you don't run the system past where it sounds good then bigger is better.

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OK ... you are confusing me more. So are you saying that by using even less power you won't be running as hard? And are you suggesting that power compression doesn't happen with lower wattages? That's just plain nonsense. :) Power compression happens because of what went on before and not because of what's happening now. So unless you know precisely what went on before before you can't possible make this statement. You're pretty much gonna get what you get, so I wouldn't worry about it.

 

I agree that the size of this system doesn't meet my expectations for a 1000 peep audience outdoors, but I have no idea what the expectations are. Either way you are gonna get what you get, but you are gonna get a bit more with bigger amps. Not gonna make much real difference either way, but if you don't run the system past where it sounds good then bigger is better.

 

No, what I am saying is that with rated amp power between 1 & 1.5x the rated continuous power of the speakers, pushing the lower powered system just as hard as the higher powered system will result in lower mechanical stresses on the drivers, with similar power dissipation and average level (because the amps have limiting built in, so clipping isn't of concern.

 

Don, there are different components of power compression, the thermal component does depend on what happened before but the electro-mechanical components do not. At high peak voltages (higher unclipped power), the mechanical component begins to dominate. This is due to local saturation of the magnetic circuit, position of the VC in (and out) of the gap, suspension non-linearities, and losses due to non-linearity of acoustic loading as the air becomes a non-linear (or less linear) medium because of things like shear, throat compression artifacts in horns (HF and subs in this application), etc. The total losses due to compression can get really high at such high levels, which help define the point of diminishing returns.

 

It's worth reading how the Audio Control "IASYS" analysis platform works, it performs power compression testing in order to determine limiter settings upon analysis. It does so non-destructively by looking for the knee in the electro-acoustic component compression curve. It's a very clever way to test non-destructively.

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Road Ranger, you hit the nail right on the head as to how I plan to deploy the speakers.

this is a Caribbean festival, there will venders selling island food, arts and crafts, clothing, etc.

there will be a calypso band, steel band, salsa band, and reggae bands. I guess maybe I can run the SRX715 stereo on the fp+ 4000 which is 800 watts @ 8 ohms, but I find the boxes sound so much better with extra power. I've had those boxes for years and run them on the FP6400 which is 1300 watts @8 ohms and they sound great with zero problems.

Well alrighty then - "Don't worry, be happy" mon :cool2: . 1300 -> 800 watts only loses you 2 dB and they will be essentially front fills anyways - "Every little thing gonna be all right" ;) .

 

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...and reggae bands.

 

You'll want to advance everything, but especially the reggae bands. Some of them can have some pretty heavy expectation where bass is concerned. Personally I also recommend a good tape echo simulation (or the real thing) for authenticity!

 

 

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