Anyone have Issues with Behringer S16 Stage Snakes?

[sventvkg]

The club I'm running sound in has been having ghost issues with what we think after lots of hunting, are the S16 Snakes. The system is an X32 with two, S16 snakes on stage. Basically the settings change, sometimes one mirrors the others on some channels and they don't match up to the P16 settings on stage. P16's are plugged into the back of the snakes. The solution thus far is to keep changing the setting and changing them back a bunch of times until everything seems to "pop" back in and the correct channels correspond to the P16 units again...VERY VERY weird intermittent issues here that can shut a show down INSTANTLY! When it works, it works flawlessly but when it doesn't, it's horrifying...Here's the description my partner wrote of the whole issue.

 

 

" When they work, they work flawlessly, but they seem very temperamental…if settings get changed, they start behaving erratically, and get "stuck". If things don't change…no problem. The email you forwarded from Jeff at Behringer was helpful in confirming several things that we suspected were the case, but in some cases given info to the contrary from manuals, videos, and the like. Not surprised, as sometimes the info you find online has since been changed, etc. Thanks again for that, though, because at least now we have some confirmations. On his advice, I did do a factory reset, loaded the scene back in, and that cured the channel mirroring issue, but the P16s were still wrong. We tripled checked the board assignments / settings for them, and verified the snake's settings. And that's the big issue. Everything is set correctly, yet it's still not working correctly. So then, we began a process of power cycling the snakes, and changing the settings, and changing them back to the correct setting. We did this a few times, and all of a sudden the P16s popped in correctly. Let me repeat…the settings are set, and it doesn't work…then they are changed and changed back to the SAME setting it was and then they worked. Very odd, and obviously not behaving as expected. There is a switch that we engaged called "Lock Stagebox" however I believe that's only for the preamp remotes, and doesn't lock the knobs on the S16's front Panel"

 

[Mogwix]

We had intermittent issues with the S16 losing connectivity with the X32 rack. The problem was solved with a firmware update. If you haven't done so, make sure the S16s and your X32 are all running current firmware revisions.

 

We've never used more than one expander, though.

[agedhorse]

I discovered that the readings on the console did not always track the readings on the stagebox, but I think I sorted out that it was due to a different display scale used on the stage box.

 

What kind of cable are you using for your snake? STP or UTP? How long is is (total legth including any jumpers between boxes?

 

I recall the lock function locks the local configuration knobs/switches. It's been a while since I set one up though.

[sventvkg]

We had intermittent issues with the S16 losing connectivity with the X32 rack. The problem was solved with a firmware update. If you haven't done so, make sure the S16s and your X32 are all running current firmware revisions.

 

We've never used more than one expander, though.

 

I should have stated we are running the current firmware.

[sventvkg]

I discovered that the readings on the console did not always track the readings on the stagebox, but I think I sorted out that it was due to a different display scale used on the stage box.

 

What kind of cable are you using for your snake? STP or UTP? How long is is (total legth including any jumpers between boxes?

 

I recall the lock function locks the local configuration knobs/switches. It's been a while since I set one up though.

 

This is a new install...All new CAT5 Cables under stage etc, with plugs on stage to the S16's. From the stageboxes to the Snakes is a very short run of cable. Maybe 5 feet.

 

There's no way to lock the settings if someone messes with the boxes, only on the board which is fine. Either way, I like the simplification of the new Stageboxes that are coming out. All the functions seem accessible from the board only which in my opinion will work much better.

[OneEng]

Look over on Lab Lounge. I believe there is a huge thread totally dedicated to this issue. The cliff notes version is that the cable you use has a huge effect. I believe that Behringer has gone so far as to start making the cables themselves for those that want a sure solution.

[sventvkg]

I'm not familiar with Lab Lounge...Where is it?

[agedhorse]

I don't think you understood my question.

 

How long is the CAT5 connection between the stage boxes and how long is the CAT5 connection between the stage box and the console?

 

Also, is the cable STP or UTP?

 

If it's STP, what kind of connectors are you using, and are you absolutely sure the shells are terminated to the drain?

 

CAT5 used in this application is operating essentially as a transmission line, so the wiring depends on the impedance terminations built into the receive amp, and you can't use splitters and couplers (sometimes) and stubs and taps.

[sventvkg]

I don't think you understood my question.

 

How long is the CAT5 connection between the stage boxes and how long is the CAT5 connection between the stage box and the console?

 

Also, is the cable STP or UTP?

 

If it's STP, what kind of connectors are you using, and are you absolutely sure the shells are terminated to the drain?

 

CAT5 used in this application is operating essentially as a transmission line, so the wiring depends on the impedance terminations built into the receive amp, and you can't use splitters and couplers (sometimes) and stubs and taps.

 

Between Stage Boxes is about 15 feet. Connection from the stage to the board is I don't know. It first goes into a plug on stage, then it goes to some kind of distribution system in a room next to the stage and from there to the board. The Hotel had an AV company install the whole thing and the PA is used for the house sound, DJ's and band. The Board is run through their whole convoluted system through a bunch of BSS software, an ethernet routing system etc...Whereas I would have split the band PA off but alas......

 

I don't know what STP or UTP are...Sorry. If it were me I would have used the AES50 cable that Behringer calls for. The AV install guy says they are using CAT5 cable....

 

I don't know what kind of connectors they are. The look like CAT5 and I don't know what terminated to the drain means

 

All I know is this entire system has been FUBAR sounds like shit, is the wrong speakers and we've had problems with the stage snakes. NOT fun and as soon as I can replace the income i'm OUT.

[OneEng]

I'm not familiar with Lab Lounge...Where is it?

 

I was vague. Prosoundweb lab lounge. Here: http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,143428.0.html

[RoadRanger]

NOT fun and as soon as I can replace the income i'm OUT.

Yup, I think you've run into one of those "you can't fix stoopid" situations .

 

 

[Mogwix]

Connection from the stage to the board is I don't know. It first goes into a plug on stage' date=' then it goes to some kind of distribution system in a room next to the stage and from there to the board.[/quote']

Would you be able to try connecting the S16s to the X32 directly, with CAT-5e cables? If everything works perfectly then we know the problem lies within the network infrastructure.

 

If all else fails, you can leave the X32 on deck, connect a wireless router and run your shows with an iPad.

[OneEng]

 

Between Stage Boxes is about 15 feet. Connection from the stage to the board is I don't know. It first goes into a plug on stage, then it goes to some kind of distribution system in a room next to the stage and from there to the board. The Hotel had an AV company install the whole thing and the PA is used for the house sound, DJ's and band. The Board is run through their whole convoluted system through a bunch of BSS software, an ethernet routing system etc...Whereas I would have split the band PA off but alas......

 

I don't know what STP or UTP are...Sorry. If it were me I would have used the AES50 cable that Behringer calls for. The AV install guy says they are using CAT5 cable....

 

I don't know what kind of connectors they are. The look like CAT5 and I don't know what terminated to the drain means

 

All I know is this entire system has been FUBAR sounds like ****************, is the wrong speakers and we've had problems with the stage snakes. NOT fun and as soon as I can replace the income i'm OUT.

 

Contact "Care" in Music Group (parent company of Behringer). They will take care of you.

[agedhorse]

Cat 5 used as AES-50 really shouldn't go through anything external. It is not an internet protocol, and should be dedicated to the system only. I suspect that somebody installing this did not grasp the concept of the protocol, perhaps they were educated beyond their own intelligence.

 

STP with shell connected drain wires (inside the Cat5, part of the shielding structure) is what I think Behringer finally ended up settling on, even though UTP will work fine 90% of the time.

[agedhorse]

Would you be able to try connecting the S16s to the X32 directly, with CAT-5e cables? If everything works perfectly then we know the problem lies within the network infrastructure.

 

If all else fails, you can leave the X32 on deck, connect a wireless router and run your shows with an iPad.

 

The problem is that it's not a true network, it is a dedicated, closed protocol data stream. It should never be connected through or to any other network.

[Mogwix]

The problem is that it's not a true network, it is a dedicated, closed protocol data stream. It should never be connected through or to any other network.

That's how I understood AES50, but further reading shows the audio data encoded as layer 2 frames for use in standard ethernet networks.

 

Obviously it doesn't quite work that way in practice. I've always set up and installed AES50 systems with dedicated lines.

 

[agedhorse]

Here's something to consider about any networked signal... Shared networks in general were not designed for continuous high rate real time data streams. General data is ok with latencies, lost and/or retransmitted frames, etc. not so with live real time high rate data streams. Conflicts, priorities, processing control overhead, dynamic routing issues and more combine to create problems that are covered up in more traditional data operations.

 

 

 

Just because something shares a familiar type of protocol doesn't mean it's inter-opera table with other similar products. For example, RS422 is a signal transport protocol but just because a device is RS422 compliant doesn't mean it's comparable to other RS422 compliant equipment.

[sventvkg]

 

The problem is that it's not a true network, it is a dedicated, closed protocol data stream. It should never be connected through or to any other network.

 

I don't think it's in a network. I think the entire AV system is over AES50 so it's just connecting that way...but maybe that's what you mean?...either way, it's definitely in there the way it is and it would take Behringer talking directly to the hotel and AV company after repeated failures for them to think about tearing it all out..BELIEVE ME!

[OneEng]

FYI,

 

STP - shielded twisted pairs. UTP - unshielded twisted pairs.

[Audiopyle Sound]

Here you are. 34 page discussion about cable to use with the X32/S16:

 

http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,143428.0.html

 

Bottom line is it needs to be shielded (STP), with Ethercon connectors at both ends and the shield must have continuity with the ethercons, as Andy mentioned. Aside from that the maximum official specified length for solid wire cat5e in this application is 100m, and 30m for stranded, although to my knowledge some stranded shielded cable (Proplex) is being successfully used at lengths up to 300'.

[agedhorse]

OP - why should I believe you? I know enough about this particular topic to recognize all the warning signs in the way you have presented your scenario. Before assuming it's the equipment and/or protocol, and the comments you are making about it, you would be a whole lot better understanding how the communication really works, then verify that the system wiring is installed to the appropriate standards and tested to be sure it's correct rather than boldly assuming so. My money is that there are either mistakes in the wiring, the signal routing, or both. If you don't know the difference between UTP and STP, what a drain wire is, what shielded RJ connectors are, and do not have the appropriate test equipment for this particular signal transmission protocol, it's time to quit arguing with me and hire a real professional. You are in over your head IMO.

 

if the installation is still under warranty (typically 1 year installation "correctness and workmanship" warranty is required in the US) then get them out and have them properly proof the infrastructure to VERIFY (not guess, of suppose, or say they are "sure" of) that it is indeed correct and they are following all if the appropriate standards.

Edited April 12, 2015 by agedhorse

[OneEng]

 

I don't think it's in a network. I think the entire AV system is over AES50 so it's just connecting that way...but maybe that's what you mean?...either way, it's definitely in there the way it is and it would take Behringer talking directly to the hotel and AV company after repeated failures for them to think about tearing it all out..BELIEVE ME!

 

I am relatively certain it is the cables, not the equipment. The link that I and Mike linked you to is a comprehensive explanation of exactly what causes your issues and how to solve them (use the cabling that was suggested).

 

There is no design flaw in the system (other than it wasn't designed with enough margin to handle UTP). There are literally tens of thousands of people using the X32 system with multiple digital snakes attached successfully.

 

At this point, you can either take the advice of those given here, contact Care at Behringer (which will tell you the same thing btw), or replace the system with something else.

 

I would replace the cables myself, but YMMV.

Edited April 12, 2015 by OneEng

[OneEng]

Here you are. 34 page discussion about cable to use with the X32/S16:

 

http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,143428.0.html

 

Bottom line is it needs to be shielded (STP), with Ethercon connectors at both ends and the shield must have continuity with the ethercons, as Andy mentioned. Aside from that the maximum official specified length for solid wire cat5e in this application is 100m, and 30m for stranded, although to my knowledge some stranded shielded cable (Proplex) is being successfully used at lengths up to 300'.

 

Thanks for the heads up on the different specifications for stranded vs solid wire! I didn't know that. Stranded is so much easier to keep from getting tangled up.

[sventvkg]

OP - why should I believe you? I know enough about this particular topic to recognize all the warning signs in the way you have presented your scenario. Before assuming it's the equipment and/or protocol, and the comments you are making about it, you would be a whole lot better understanding how the communication really works, then verify that the system wiring is installed to the appropriate standards and tested to be sure it's correct rather than boldly assuming so. My money is that there are either mistakes in the wiring, the signal routing, or both. If you don't know the difference between UTP and STP, what a drain wire is, what shielded RJ connectors are, and do not have the appropriate test equipment for this particular signal transmission protocol, it's time to quit arguing with me and hire a real professional. You are in over your head IMO.

 

if the installation is still under warranty (typically 1 year installation "correctness and workmanship" warranty is required in the US) then get them out and have them properly proof the infrastructure to VERIFY (not guess, of suppose, or say they are "sure" of) that it is indeed correct and they are following all if the appropriate standards.

 

Who is arguing with you? Maybe you are misunderstanding the situation? This was an install at a hotel. We had nothing to do with that. an AV company was hired to install the system. Fine. We came in to RUN LIVE SOUND. The AV company doesn't really wish to communicate with us and all the problems we have been having have been brushed aside so we the sound men are left hunting for answers on our own. I relay to the company that hired me and they have meetings with the hotel, AV company etc and again, it's a corporate, political issue as always. Bottom line is WE ALL know this AV company fucked something up but they won't admit it and thus won't fix it. They are also in politically at the hotel, THUS it's up to US, the SOUNDMEN to try to fix it if possible on our own. Get it now? I was never arguing with you and i'm sorry I don't have your depth of technical knowledge about UTP, STP etc...no reason to be an ass. I wasn't. Maybe something as usual was lost in writing as opposed to us just having a face to face conversation? Either way, Sorry if you thought I was being argumentative. My hands are tied here unfortunately. If it were my call I'd have it wired point to point and we would NOT being going through their entire AV system matrix with software controlling the EQ curves etc. The live sound aspect (There's Club Sound/DJ also going through this system) Should be split completely from all this rubbish according to everyone I have talked to who knows WAY WAY more about the wiring etc than I....

 

Anyway, thank you and everyone else for helping me confirm what my partner and I suspected IS the issue. As to resolving it, It's going to be politically difficult but I may end up just home running my own AES50cable from the board to the snakes, bypassing the stage connections and the house AV system altogether.

[agedhorse]

Right, like I said before, there are very specific requirements and limitations regarding the cable structure, and what it may and may not connect to, how it connects and very critical requirements for the elimination of (or avoidance to using) stubs and taps because the cable is not really a simple cable but acts like a transmission line.

 

So, how do you know that it's a, X-32 problem at all? The AV processing matrix is something entirely different and unrelated to the console/stage box OTHER THAN the AUDIO signal processing (nothing to do with the AES-50 protocol).

 

What I am getting at, and I am not trying to be an ass but sometimes it comes across that way when folks are in over their head troubleshooting something more complex than they understand) is that you have to identify the actual problem before definitively stating that something specific IS the problem. At this point, all we can say (or all I can say) is that you do not know what the problem actually is, and by bypassing EVERYTHING, you have deduced (incorrectly) that it is (or is not) one particular thing, which your data does not support.

 

It could just as easily be a defectively terminated RJ connector, UTP cable installed in an electrically noisy environment, incorrectly terminated STP cable, a cable that has a sharp tangle in it because it was pulled incorrectly through conduit (sharp kinks or knots can cause this problem because it's not a wire but a transmission line), but it could also be something intermittent in the output signal processing system (including software, glitchy Crestron control (if Crestron based), etc. There are probably 100 possible causes for your problem, which is why any competent design-build installation company will follow all protocols and structure the design to completely eliminate the possibility of as many of these potential issues as possible, leaving a MUCH smaller group of possibilities to troubleshoot.

 

PS... I do this for a living, and have for 35 years. I'm pretty darn familiar with not just the installation side of this but also the engineering side of this from an equipment designer's perspective.

 

I agree, that something like this tends to be a LOT more successful designed and installed as a stand alone system, but in your situation, how are you accomplishing the system drive processing once you bypass the installed matrix DSP (presumably with the drive processing internal to it)?