Need help building my first PA...

[scottland7]

I've done tons of reading on different forums and websites and seem to come away with more questions than answers. I'm hoping you kind folks will exercise some patience with me and my questions.

 

I am building a PA on a budget and am shopping mostly for used gear. The hope is to build something that will be practical and useful in small to medium settings that will not need to be upgraded anytime soon. It doesn't need to be the best...only functional, reliable and of decent quality. The particulars:

 

* It's a 4 to 5 piece classic rock/blues band.

* I am building around a pair of Yamaha Clubs (S115IV) that I picked up for a song that will be used as mains.

* Unless folks tell me I'm traveling the wrong path, I like the idea of a combo amp/mixer with fewer components and connections required. It needs to be a simple set up as we have zero experience running sound.

 

The YSP feature on Yamaha mixers has drawn me to those products as my hope is they will help make the system more "idiot proof" from newbies like me and an overall good match. You'll tell me if the YSP feature is a worthy feature to seek. That said, I've looked into the EMX-512 SC and the EMX-5000-12 which can be had for 350-450 on the used market if you're patient.

 

Are these 1000 watt mixers a good (safe) match? Is it true that going with an amp that is 1.5 to 2 times the continuous rating of the speakers prevents the amp from working too hard and burning out? Am I on the right track?

 

What are the features that are "must haves". I've read that the compression controls on the EMX-512 are really nice to have.

 

Is the amount of power (watts) actually used directly proportional to volume and how hard (loud) you push the system?

 

Let's just start from here. I'll have lots of follow up questions. Thanks in advance, guys.

 

 

[agedhorse]

I would recommend rated amp power no more than 1.5x the rated continuous speaker power unless you (really) know what you are doing and are out front listening to the system so that you have at least some reasonable chance of recognizibng when you are approaching it's limits. I usually recommend between 1x and 1.5x as a generality.

 

Also, these days, you need to understand how each manufacurer is rating their power output (and handling). the numbers are growing based on some changes in how liberal marketing folks are alowed to be.

 

I would really recommend powered speakers, that way all the calculations, and especially all of the protective processing is done and done right.

[scottland7]

Ughh! I was afraid you would say that. I do know it's easier for inexperienced folks to start out with powered speakers. However, given that I've already invested in a set of Yamaha Clubs, I would like to build around them even if it means dealing with a learning curve.

 

That said, is it possible to under-power a speaker? And if so, what is the consequence? I ask because if we determine that one of these 1000 watt amps (500x2) is appropriate for the mains, what does that mean for potential smaller (12 or 10 inch) monitors that are likely to have a 250-350 watt continuous rating?

[dboomer]

What do you mean by "under powering a speaker"? Supplying fewer watts than the maximum rating? Well that happen every time you turn down, which of course is no problem.

 

 

 

Try this ... http://peavey.com/support/technotes/poweramps/HOW_MUCH_POWER.pdf

[Shaster]

If you're just in this for the fun, picking up an all in one powered mixer is not a bad option. You can learn as you go, succeed or fail, without a whole lot of head scratching. Depending on how careful you are, your speakers could survive - just depends on what you're doing. If you add monitors, it's a better power ratio. Anyway, If you got the clubs for a good price and you have an oops, then you can move on to powered. If you need subs, crossovers or more control over monitors and so on, you can sell the stuff and move on.

 

Even though I have racks, and passive mixers, and some of my speakers are powered, I still have a 16 channel powered mixer I take out with my Yorkville U15's. If I add my Yorkville e210's as monitors, it's a very easy, but still great sounding system.

 

Further to Don's response... as a guitar player, I can say that we all believe you can damage a speaker by underpowering it - that's why we play so loud! If we turned down, poof, blown speakers everywhere

[dedmeet]

* Unless folks tell me I'm traveling the wrong path, I like the idea of a combo amp/mixer with fewer components and connections required. It needs to be a simple set up as we have zero experience running sound.

 

You're traveling the wrong path.

 

Okay, just kidding. I did a bunch of gigs with 2xS115V and an EMX5000-12 mixer. The biggest thing you will run into right away is issues with low channel count and limited options for patching things. Also, the power specs on powered mixers can be a tad optimistic, so inspect them carefully.

 

One option to look at is a decent compact mixer and a decent power amp. Not much more complicated and can scale up better. The two mixers you list are decent enough options for a vocals-only PA for a small band, but will not keep up with a heavy-handed drummer or guitards who have their amps set on 11 constantly.

[scottland7]

What do you mean by "under powering a speaker"? Supplying fewer watts than the maximum rating? Well that happen every time you turn down, which of course is no problem.

 

 

 

Try this ... http://peavey.com/support/technotes/poweramps/HOW_MUCH_POWER.pdf

 

Thanks for the link.

 

I have a difficult time imagining using the proposed PA to its limits, especially earlier on when the gigs will be on the small side. Seems "safer" to have the power of dual 500 watt amps knowing we won't have to work it very hard to get what we need, but still have the room to grow. Is that logic "logical" or am I way off base?

[scottland7]

If you're just in this for the fun, picking up an all in one powered mixer is not a bad option. You can learn as you go, succeed or fail, without a whole lot of head scratching. Depending on how careful you are, your speakers could survive - just depends on what you're doing. If you add monitors, it's a better power ratio. Anyway, If you got the clubs for a good price and you have an oops, then you can move on to powered. If you need subs, crossovers or more control over monitors and so on, you can sell the stuff and move on.

 

Even though I have racks, and passive mixers, and some of my speakers are powered, I still have a 16 channel powered mixer I take out with my Yorkville U15's. If I add my Yorkville e210's as monitors, it's a very easy, but still great sounding system.

 

Further to Don's response... as a guitar player, I can say that we all believe you can damage a speaker by underpowering it - that's why we play so loud! If we turned down, poof, blown speakers everywhere

 

Thanks Shaster. Your powered mixer set up is similar to what I had in mind. What mixer are you using?

 

I'm thinking 2 mains, 2 monitors and an initial set up that would require inputs for about 5 vocal/instrument mics. We don't plan to mic the drum kit at this time.

 

[dedmeet]

I have a difficult time imagining using the proposed PA to its limits, especially earlier on when the gigs will be on the small side. Seems "safer" to have the power of dual 500 watt amps knowing we won't have to work it very hard to get what we need, but still have the room to grow. Is that logic "logical" or am I way off base?

 

The EMX5000 is 500W per side into 4 ohms, but only 325W into 8ohms. Doing the math, your peak SPL will be ~124dB if you run in stereo, less if you run main+mon mode, so you might find the limits sooner than you think.

 

If you keep the volume down and don't try to run everything in the PA, it will sound fine. I did a ton of DJ and small band work with that same combo and it sounded dandy. I bet you a dollar you will outgrow the system and relegate it to the rehearsal room fairly quickly, though.

[scottland7]

 

The EMX5000 is 500W per side into 4 ohms, but only 325W into 8ohms. Doing the math, your peak SPL will be ~124dB if you run in stereo, less if you run main+mon mode, so you might find the limits sooner than you think.

 

If you keep the volume down and don't try to run everything in the PA, it will sound fine. I did a ton of DJ and small band work with that same combo and it sounded dandy. I bet you a dollar you will outgrow the system and relegate it to the rehearsal room fairly quickly, though.

 

Can you recommend a simple and easy to use set up based around the club speakers that I've already purchased? I like the idea of a system that is flexible enough to handle the small gigs but with enough "oomph" to grow with the band. Simple and fairly foolproof is key. It's why I was trying to go with a powered mixer to start with. One less thing to carry in and connect and, theoretically, a smaller learning curve.

 

Thanks for any suggestions you can offer up.

[scottland7]

 

Further to Don's response... as a guitar player, I can say that we all believe you can damage a speaker by underpowering it - that's why we play so loud! If we turned down, poof, blown speakers everywhere

 

Lol!

[Pro Sound Guy]

Get two more Yamaha Clubs (S115IV) loudspeakers and use four boxes instead of two for more output. Pushing the boxes you have to their limit is not the answer.

[nchangin]

 

You're traveling the wrong path.

 

One option to look at is a decent compact mixer and a decent power amp. Not much more complicated and can scale up better. The two mixers you list are decent enough options for a vocals-only PA for a small band, but will not keep up with a heavy-handed drummer or guitards who have their amps set on 11 constantly.

 

(guitards LOL) I agree, don't know if you heard it but buy once cry once. Amps are cheap on the used market. I'd think a qsc1450 would match up nicely with those and as another pointed out in another post four speakers would work even better. Put your $ into a stable foundation to build off of which starts with the mixer....

 

[Unalaska]

I actually like the EMX512 or better yet the larger tabletop mixer/amp. The larger one has basically enough inputs, a few monitor sends, good effects, enough power. The YSP processing isn't a big deal but maybe it helps? All the yamaha P2 series amps have it though I've never used it.

 

 

 

The larger board has 2 amps built in which can be used for 2 mon mixes and the mains can be powered with an external amp (p7000? Subs/tops). The trick here is you'll find yourself limited with the mixer. Inputs, mon mixes (I have an IEM, where do I plug in?), power amp size is ok for speaker on stick or mon. Not big enough for subs. When you outgrow this board then what?

 

 

 

If if you're cool with all this then go for it. Outgrow in a year? Well you paid not much for it so why not. And it's a great Swiss amrmy knife mixer/amp. So yeah, but it.

[Shaster]

 

Thanks Shaster. Your powered mixer set up is similar to what I had in mind. What mixer are you using?

 

I'm thinking 2 mains, 2 monitors and an initial set up that would require inputs for about 5 vocal/instrument mics. We don't plan to mic the drum kit at this time.

 

If you're not micing drums, then a simple powered box or table mixer is the way to go IMHO. The learning curve is not as steep, less patching, failure points and so on. I just did a swank poolside gig with 150 folks and used some old Yamaha powered mixer, went into some Yorkie E10P's and called it a day - well after carving out the annoying E10P mid that is.

 

I think the mixer you talked about, or any Yammie mixer where you can split the two amps would be good. I would personally however, look for a mixer where you can have two GEQ's, one for mains, one for monitors.

 

I'm in Canada, and many folks up here use this one http://yorkville.com/mixers/micromix/product/m810-2/ Although I don't own one, I've used them many times. Signal present lights are nice, dual GEQ's and so on.

 

You also asked what mixer I have. It's the Yorkville PM16 - too much power for your needs. http://yorkville.com/mixers/powermax/product/powermax16-2/

 

Anyway, if you can get a used Yammie in good working order, it should do the trick. If and when you want to graduate to another level, keep it for a spare or sell it. I've still got a used Yorkville S8 powered mixer I picked up fifteen years ago for $300 bucks or so. As I've said in the past, I use it for the beer and puke crowds. Oddly enough, maybe because it isn't worth anything, nothing bad has happened to it - YET!

[Drummer44]

I think, were it me, Scott, I'd consider going the route of unpowered mixer + power amp + the club speakers.

 

Building block approach. That kind of system could easily be augmented later with powered speakers for FOH, or powered monitors, whatever (so lots of that engineering is already done for you). Or the power amp could be eventually repurposed to drive passive monitors, especially if the club speakers crap out or for some reason don't otherwise meet your needs sometime in the future.

 

Maybe with some built-in effects on the unpowered mixer, enough to tide you over until some future time when you might want to upgrade FX stuff.

 

Just seems, to me, that would be a little more versatile for the long haul.

 

-D44

 

[dedmeet]

My suggested system for the Yammie clubs would be similar to the system I am building this weekend:

- Behringer XR18

- Peavey IPR2 2000

 

Put it all in a little rolling case and run it via an iPad, Android tablet, or a PC.

[scottland7]

Get two more Yamaha Clubs (S115IV) loudspeakers and use four boxes instead of two for more output. Pushing the boxes you have to their limit is not the answer.

 

Four mains would be total overkill, especially at the outset. My thought was not to push the speakers to the limit, but to have enough headroom in the amp to not overwork it in order to push what is needed. We're talking small coffeehouse type places to small restaurants with maybe 100-150 people down the road. We've got a while before I need to be concerned with power. But it seems I have mains in the Yamaha S115IVs that are powerful enough to do what is needed now quite easily and still have some room to grow.

[scottland7]

 

(guitards LOL) I agree, don't know if you heard it but buy once cry once. Amps are cheap on the used market. I'd think a qsc1450 would match up nicely with those and as another pointed out in another post four speakers would work even better. Put your $ into a stable foundation to build off of which starts with the mixer....

 

"buy once cry once"...love it! I actually like that idea and it's usually my approach. I don't want something that will be outgrown in no time. That said, it's gonna be a while before we take the stage at Madison Square Garden.

 

My focus on the powered mixer approach has to do with "bang for the buck" and simplicity...a system that would do most things pretty well in a simple package with as few connections as possible. I actually considered some of the "all-in-one" PAs, but when I stumbled on the deal for the Clubs, I pulled the trigger and am now trying to build around them.

 

Just looking to build within a budget and still keep the system simple enough for a newbie to learn to use it and...well...not blow it up. If that system had a little room to grow, that would be ideal.

 

What do you gain from going with the QSC 1450 with dual 450W amps that the EXM-512 with dual 500W amps won't cover? Legitimate question.

 

Also, can you (or someone) give me a quick run down of how connecting in stereo, mono, bridged mono, etc. impacts power and speaker matching? In my mind, I imagined connecting a couple mains to one amp side and a couple monitors to the other, I guess, thereby daisy chaining the speakers together. That means everything through mains and everything through monitors is running "mono", right? How do you run in stereo and/or in bridged mode and what is the advantage?

 

Thanks so much.

[djrnno]

Don't get something that will be obsolete when you progress , Don't go the powered mixer route , Pay once , Cry once and I'd do kinda like dedmeet said and get the Behringer xr18 . You will have a learning curve but it's something you can use for the future as well as the present . IN power amps you have lots of choices, and good used ones can be found pretty cheap . Then when you progress you can add Xover ,subs and another power amp and have a pretty sweet system

[scottland7]

I think, were it me, Scott, I'd consider going the route of unpowered mixer + power amp + the club speakers.

 

Building block approach. That kind of system could easily be augmented later with powered speakers for FOH, or powered monitors, whatever (so lots of that engineering is already done for you). Or the power amp could be eventually repurposed to drive passive monitors, especially if the club speakers crap out or for some reason don't otherwise meet your needs sometime in the future.

 

Maybe with some built-in effects on the unpowered mixer, enough to tide you over until some future time when you might want to upgrade FX stuff.

 

Just seems, to me, that would be a little more versatile for the long haul.

 

-D44

 

When I saw your user name, I thought for sure your comment was going to be, "Why the heck aren't you mic'ing the drums. Drummers get no love.", or something along those lines.

 

You're suggesting sort of a hybrid system? Power the clubs with an amp and unpowered mixer and then, perhaps, use powered speaker for monitors? I know it's not what you're suggesting, but can you add powered speakers and/or subs to a powered box like the emx-512? It would need to have some sort of passive output, right?

[Shaster]

I think a lot of people forget why box mixers and even table top mixers are so popular - they are dead easy to operate.

 

I know of many professional musicians who have some sort of box (or all in one) system with passive speakers. They use them with much success on the many gigs they do, and when their system is inadequate they hire a pro. Many people never need to "move up" and frankly if they do, they just hang on to their box mixer to use in a rehearsal space, or give it to their kids or nephew...

 

If the OP wanted to buy a $3000.00 mixer like the Yorkville PM22 I would strongly advise against it, but if he can pick up a used Yamaha for $500.00, it will hardly be a case of buyer's remorse when he outgrows it. In fact, he might never outgrow it - that will depend on his circumstances. The only pitfall IMHO is that the mixer would not be under warranty. Functionally it should be fine.

 

Again, the OP has Yamaha Clubs, not Nexo or Danley. He also has a very limited budget. Yes, the gear snob in me wants to suggest he spend another $5000.00 (or more) to "do it right" but the pragmatist in me remembers that there's a club here in town that has music seven days a week with a box mixer and four budget EV speakers. http://www.cottage-bistro.com/ My two cents.

[Comoxsam]

Hey Scottland7,

 

I happen to have the older (slightly less power) version of the EMX512 and some Yamaha S115IVs. I have used this PA more than a decade for a couple different rock bands in all kinds of settings indoors and out. 2 speakers for mains and 2 for monitors. It is not going to blow anyone away with pristine sound quality or high volume but for just starting out it is a great and cheap way to go. It is a dead simple system to use and has worked very well for us and never once had a problem.

 

I lent the system out once for a small festival gig in the park. I wasn't there but apparently the mixer took about a 10 foot fall off the stage. The guy I lent it to was horrified but he picked it up and it didn't miss a beat.

 

You won't get anyone on any live sound forum telling you to go the powered mixer route as powered speakers are really the right way to go. However if you want it dead simple and cheap and still sound very good, you can't go wrong with the Yamaha system you are considering.

 

Most people poo poo on the powered mixers mainly because they aren't very scalable which is true. However I've recently purchased a new PA with powered speakers, subs, and digital mixer. I would love to buy some powered monitors to complete my system but it's just not in the cards right now financially. So I'm using my old Yamaha powered mixer as a monitor amp and my old Yamaha club speakers as my monitor system and it's working just fine.

 

Good luck

 

 

[scottland7]

I think a lot of people forget why box mixers and even table top mixers are so popular - they are dead easy to operate.

 

I know of many professional musicians who have some sort of box (or all in one) system with passive speakers. They use them with much success on the many gigs they do, and when their system is inadequate they hire a pro. Many people never need to "move up" and frankly if they do, they just hang on to their box mixer to use in a rehearsal space, or give it to their kids or nephew...

 

If the OP wanted to buy a $3000.00 mixer like the Yorkville PM22 I would strongly advise against it, but if he can pick up a used Yamaha for $500.00, it will hardly be a case of buyer's remorse when he outgrows it. In fact, he might never outgrow it - that will depend on his circumstances. The only pitfall IMHO is that the mixer would not be under warranty. Functionally it should be fine.

 

Again, the OP has Yamaha Clubs, not Nexo or Danley. He also has a very limited budget. Yes, the gear snob in me wants to suggest he spend another $5000.00 (or more) to "do it right" but the pragmatist in me remembers that there's a club here in town that has music seven days a week with a box mixer and four budget EV speakers. http://www.cottage-bistro.com/ My two cents.

 

Thanks for the link to Cottage Bistro. Looks like a cool place. Enjoyed the video of James Buddy Rogers as well. Good stuff.

 

You hit the nail on the head regarding what I'm after. If it's possible to put together a simple to use system that has enough inputs to handle a 4/5 piece band AND that can be expanded a bit, now that would be ideal. Yeah, I want my cake and to eat it too! As powered mixers go, any advantage to either the table top or box style? The EMX-512 has some basic EQ capabilities for both monitors and mains, which I imagine would be useful. I've heard the compression pots are a nice to have as well.

 

Thanks for the help.

 

 

[nchangin]

 

"buy once cry once"...love it! I actually like that idea and it's usually my approach. I don't want something that will be outgrown in no time. That said, it's gonna be a while before we take the stage at Madison Square Garden.

 

My focus on the powered mixer approach has to do with "bang for the buck" and simplicity...a system that would do most things pretty well in a simple package with as few connections as possible. I actually considered some of the "all-in-one" PAs, but when I stumbled on the deal for the Clubs, I pulled the trigger and am now trying to build around them.

 

Just looking to build within a budget and still keep the system simple enough for a newbie to learn to use it and...well...not blow it up. If that system had a little room to grow, that would be ideal.

 

What do you gain from going with the QSC 1450 with dual 450W amps that the EXM-512 with dual 500W amps won't cover? Legitimate question.

 

1450 is more robust with a 30 hz and 50 hz filter, limiters, it's dedicated. It can handle two ohm loads if need be.....read over the manual of the exm and EMX512SC

Maximum Output Power 500 W/4 Ω 300 W/4 Ω 220 W/4 Ω

@ 0.5 % THD at 1 kHz

 

 

 

Also, can you (or someone) give me a quick run down of how connecting in stereo, mono, bridged mono, etc. impacts power and speaker matching? In my mind, I imagined connecting a couple mains to one amp side and a couple monitors to the other, I guess, thereby daisy chaining the speakers together. That means everything through mains and everything through monitors is running "mono", right? How do you run in stereo and/or in bridged mode and what is the advantage?

 

Assuming you have the 8 ohm clubs that qsc is going to give you real 400 W 4 ohms (assuming you run two per side)

FTC 20 Hz - 20 kHz, 0.1% THD

 

Thanks so much.

 

So in the long run more beef going separates but as others have said, that powered mixer would get you off running quicker and easier and pretty much a no brainer to run...

 

Stereo mode is for two separate signals, such as an mp3 player input for like a dj, most band setups don't use true stereo. Re bridging, not to get to far in depth one could wrtie a book on it, it's used to take two separate amps and drive 1 load (1 speaker or line of speakers in parallel) and give you more power due to 2 amps powering one load...however, there are sometimes tradeoffs using this method to power speakers. (that's another topic)

 

However if you think your going to be doing this kinda stuff seriously over the next couple years you might wanna think about a better mixer, I was going to suggest xr18 as someone else did in earlier post as well.....but you need another device to run that, and it would be a whole lot more work to setup/deploy...

 

on the flip side the reason why some of us are steering you away from powered mixers is: A. we've had powered and ended up upgrading due to scalability, powered options, and B. is cause often we see people back in 6 months saying well we tried the 500 w powered mixer and it just isn't cutting it, so I was looking at selling x buying x.

 

The powered mixer good starter mixer. I wouldn't run a 2 ohm load on it though, make sure you have 8 ohm cabs if you plan on double up on each channel. (two 8 ohm in parallel = 4 ohm to amp)

 

Good luck in your choice!