Performer running sound from stage

[snowbird122]

I could really use some help with my search for a solution to this problem. I currently play in a 5 piece band, and we have an awesome sound engineer. He will likely be leaving the group within the next 6 months for personal reasons. We practice once per week, and gig once per month. We only make enough money to pay for the rehearsal space, so everyone (including the sound engineer) plays for free.

 

I'd like to find a way to run the sound myself when the sound engineer leaves because I think it is unlikely that we'll be able to find someone to do it for us. He's currently using a 24 track digital Presonus board, but it will go away when he leaves.

 

I'd like to find a way to run sound from the stage. I play keyboard, guitar, and do backing vocals. Here is my current setup:

 

I have a keyboard midi controller connected to a PC. I use a RME Fireface UCX audio interface, and I plug my microphone and guitar into it. I use Forte (http://brainspawn.com) for my VST host, and I run VSTs for all my instruments. The outputs of my soundcard go to an analog snake, and then to the Presonus.

 

This has been working well, but I'm willing to move off of Forte to another piece of software (maybe a DAW) in order to do a lot more than just run VSTs,

 

I'm looking for a combination of hardware and PC software that will do the following:

1. Stable enough to trust with live music (we’d want to split out all the signals to analog so that we’d still have a working PA even if the PC dies).
   
2. Runs VST3 plugins
   
3. I’d like to be able to add all the songs into a list, and program midi into each song in order to preprogram the lighting system
   
4. We need ten aux sends to deliver 5 custom stereo in-ear monitor mixes
   
5. I need some way to switch my in-ear monitors between my monitor mix and the front of house
   

 

Any thoughts on how this can be done?

 

[wesg]

No immediate thoughts, other than you are setting yourself up for a fair bit of complexity. My personal mantra is KISS. You're better off with a manageable load-in and something you can devote mental energy to while playing. I run a Mackie analog board from stage while playing, and it took me a long time to learn to adjust anything while playing music. A lot of that learning happened in the rehearsal hall. I currently run my own monitor with a post-fader aux send which helps a lot for balancing vocals and boosting the odd guitar solo appropriately.

 

10 aux sends is a tall order for a band that doesn't have any income. Do you REALLY need stereo in-ears? How is your light show currently run? Are you currently using tracks?

 

Wes

[snowbird122]

Thanks for the input about the complexity. This is a very fair point. We could do without the stereo ears and mains. Our lights are all run from a separate laptop. The sound engineer has programmed lots of different scenes, but doesn't have a separate program for each song. We aren't currently using any tracks, but I'd like a way to do this in the future (mostly backing vocals).

[agedhorse]

10 aux mixes from the stage is a tall order when things are going well... when there are hiccups that will be 10 mixes of "OMG".

 

Simpler is always more reliable, especially when you are playing and can't devote attention to such distractions.

 

Consider the fun factor... maybe it's worth paying a sound guy something in order to maximize YOUR fun?

[RoadRanger]

Oy Vey, good luck!

[onelife]

Personally, I find it extremely difficult to do both (be a performer and the sound guy). It seem like a right-brain left-brain thing to me.

 

I can do it with my trio because once we set it we basically mix ourselves by getting out of each others way during the performance and the drummer, who sings and wears ears, sets his own mix.

 

I gave up trying to do both when I started the first song with my guitar out of tune.

[OneEng]

I could really use some help with my search for a solution to this problem. I currently play in a 5 piece band, and we have an awesome sound engineer. He will likely be leaving the group within the next 6 months for personal reasons. We practice once per week, and gig once per month. We only make enough money to pay for the rehearsal space, so everyone (including the sound engineer) plays for free.

 

I'd like to find a way to run the sound myself when the sound engineer leaves because I think it is unlikely that we'll be able to find someone to do it for us. He's currently using a 24 track digital Presonus board, but it will go away when he leaves.

 

I'd like to find a way to run sound from the stage. I play keyboard, guitar, and do backing vocals. Here is my current setup:

 

I have a keyboard midi controller connected to a PC. I use a RME Fireface UCX audio interface, and I plug my microphone and guitar into it. I use Forte (http://brainspawn.com) for my VST host, and I run VSTs for all my instruments. The outputs of my soundcard go to an analog snake, and then to the Presonus.

 

This has been working well, but I'm willing to move off of Forte to another piece of software (maybe a DAW) in order to do a lot more than just run VSTs,

 

I'm looking for a combination of hardware and PC software that will do the following:

1. Stable enough to trust with live music (we’d want to split out all the signals to analog so that we’d still have a working PA even if the PC dies).
   
2. Runs VST3 plugins
   
3. I’d like to be able to add all the songs into a list, and program midi into each song in order to preprogram the lighting system
   
4. We need ten aux sends to deliver 5 custom stereo in-ear monitor mixes
   
5. I need some way to switch my in-ear monitors between my monitor mix and the front of house
   

Any thoughts on how this can be done?

 

I do this at all our gigs ..... well, not the lights.

 

I used to have a MixWiz rig, but found that mixing that from stage was nearly impossible as I am the front man as well as the sound man.

 

I struggled with the decision, but ended up abandoning the physical interface completely and going with the X32 Rack.

My rationale was that I couldn't have a full mix board next to me on stage anyway, so it didn't really matter if it had a physical interface. Also, one of my criteria was smaller, lighter, and faster to setup and tear down.

 

The X32 (and honestly most digital mixers in this price range) has scenes. The scenes can be recalled in a way that only certain parts of the scene overwrite what you currently have. This can all be done by a tablet that mounts to your microphone stand. I use an iPad Mini, but you could just as easily use an Android with the X32 (and some like that app better than the iOS app anyway).

 

I have a Furman HDS6 wired IEM system with 4 individual mix stations for each band member to make their own mix. I keep mine on just the L/R mix so I can have a rough idea of how the mix sounds out front. This only works for us because we have vDrums, my Kemper in to the PA DI, the bass into the PA DI, and the lead guitar volume fairly low with a plexiglass shield around it to keep the beaming out of the audience. We have very little (if any) stage volume, so what the L/R mix sounds like is somewhat close to the real FOH mix. If this isn't the case for your band, you may have to put a mic out front and use that as a reference.

 

The iPad app has a full meter bridge so I can easily see the input levels on all the inputs at once.

 

The real trick to using the scenes, is that I use the scenes for different setups like who is lead singing, which guitar is more prominent, etc, etc. Then the DCA's are used to adjust for things like the lead players volume being different tonight, or the bass DI being a bit hotter than it normally is. The DCA's are not setup to be recalled in my scenes, so the basic setup is retained in each scene, and the real time tweak is the DCA's.

 

The scenes can be controlled through MIDI if you want. I think that you can setup the X32 to send MIDI messages on scene changes as well, but I haven't done anything this fancy. If you search around the net or on the Behringer forums, you might find someone that has something this complex setup.

 

Good luck. Hope these helps.

[Audiopile]

The vanity band I play in generally "mixes" from stage (now). The group as a whole is fairly new, although all of the members have been performing "together" in various combinations in other bands for a decade or more (multiple decades in some cases)... but as a group we've been at it for about 3 years. I'm of the impression that it's just starting to really come together for us to my idea of "right". Early on we mixed from stage... I just shut-upped and played my bass... only our lead guitarist had and inkling of my "soundguy side" outside of my playing bass... and he just shut-upped and played his guitar and sang. And we were awful... absolutely terrible... good enough musicians, but lousy sound and a lousy "performance/entertainment product"... as in: It's doubtful any of us would have walked across the street to see us perform, much-less would have paid good money to hire us. The watershed moment was when we got fired from a gig. The band was sitting around all discouraged wondering what the problem was... I offered it's simple... bands generally suck or they don't suck, and we suck, and with good reason: crappy system, crappy mixing, lots of noodling around on stage, everyone playing louder than everyone else, no dynamics, etc... they all gave me the deer in the headlights look. I said "how about I video record our next performance, review it and see what you think?" They agreed and I did and they did, and then the light bulb went on... "yup, we suck... what to do about it?" I explained a lot of stuff, and then invited the band to play an outdoor festival that I was producing and my crew was doing the production on. It was a big deal... we practiced hard and intently, and then came the big day, on the big stage, good gear, good stage crew and sound mixer persons... as good as it generally gets for a "local & regional talent show". And I video recorded that performance... then we reviewed the two videoed performances... and there was no going back. For the next year or so, I personally hired the production for every show... paid for it out of my own pocket... even though the cost for the hired production generally exceeded the total pay for the band... I saw it as an investment in our future that was needed to get us "there"... otherwise I suspect the mission would have been scuttled. I knew the situation with the soundperson wasn't going to last as he was only available for a limited time... we worked around his schedule as it was since the $150 - $250/show I was paying him was "good money for the area", but he was and is in-demand and commands better pay on a regional level. So for that year we were running a fairly involved system... in-ear monitors all around, generally 16+ inputs on the board, really nice FX dialed to perfection, etc... And lots of critiquing performances... video & multi-track recordings a plenty. I knew our days were numbered as far as having a BE, so about a year ago I started putting together a "mix from stage" system and educating the band on how to make it work well without a BE. Now we perform most of the time without a BE. The system is much simpler, generally about a 20 - 25 minute set-up or tear-down & load-out, but it's relatively high-end stuff with plenty of headroom and clarity. Education, practice, and critical analysis has been the keys to success. The result is that I believe we generally sound better, and the over-all entertainment product is better now "mixing from stage" that it was with "production" before all the education, practice and critical analysis... and when we are blessed with having our BE there and the big mix system, it's "really good".

 

BTW: We don't much "mix" from stage as far as twisting knobs... I set it and forget it. I engage/disengage the FX with a foot switch... the band "mixes" themselves by working together as a group to control dynamics. It's been a lot of work, but it's paying off.

[StratGuy22]

BTW: We don't much "mix" from stage as far as twisting knobs... I set it and forget it. I engage/disengage the FX with a foot switch... the band "mixes" themselves by working together as a group to control dynamics. It's been a lot of work' date=' but it's paying off.[/quote']

 

This is us generally. We all work together as a band. I mix us from the stage as well. I get all our levels and then dial In our mix out front with an iPad for sound check. I use a volume pedal to set my lead volume, then I back it off for rhythm. Our other guitarist does something similar, with lead & rhythm channels as well. Vocally, we get up on the mic when singing lead and back it off a bit when singing backups.

 

It it works out pretty good. Would we be better with someone running the mic out front? For sure. I just haven't found the right person yet.

 

Heres a a couple videos of us mixing from the stage:

 

 

[StratGuy22]

If I can give any advice, the vocals have to be out front, first and foremost. How many times have you been at a gig and it sounds great but you can't hear the singer. Everyone has to rally around that.

 

Also, you have to think band first, yourself second. Play for the band, know when to sit in the mic, and shine out front when it's time. I know one band and the guitar player is so brutally loud, that's all you hear. SO disrespectful to the group and selfish in my opinion. Any live videos of them, all you hear is guitar. I'd post one but it's better if I don't.

 

A band and sounds so much better when everyone is working together as a team, instead of 4 or 5 individuals all in it for themselves...

[Axisplayer]

So Stratguy22, the obvious question is…… where is a Strat up there? I see an Ibanez and Telecaster. Just asking (tongue in cheek of course….)

[StratGuy22]

Haha its a long story.

 

 

 

[abzurd]

Step 1 - Understand if yours is a band capable of mixing itself. If your sound guy is constantly chasing gains and patch eqs all night, the gear is irrelevant and it's a personnel issue. If he tweaks a few things at the beginning and raises a solo every so often, then you have a fighting chance. IEM's are an indication your back line may be in the range of acceptable volume so as not to have to account for it in the FOH mix so that's a good thing.

 

Step 2 - Assuming you pass Step 1, buy the board off your sound guy or get the same board and load "your show" on it. If you're truly managing patch levels you'll be "close enough for rock and roll". You can get all fancy with midi and some other board later, but stick with what's been working as you already have the blueprints, including the IEM mix. Note: if you're IEM mix is constantly changing then you know you need to make some behavior changes as those changes are also going out front.

 

It can be done though.... just keep it simple when you can. Here's us rockin' with just a Mackie DL1608 (since sold) and a very small FOH speaker system with subs that would fit in the trunk of a midsize car.

 

[video=youtube;U4KwMEFIwrk]

[onelife]

One of the most enjoyable bands I heard perform live is Brickhouse out of Vancouver. They did not turn up for solos, everybody else simply got out of the way. Easy gig for the FOH guy because things didn't get louder as the night went on.

 

When I was just starting out I went to pay the band's union dues and the secretary was a retired clarinet player. He was talking to me about the higher volumes of amplified music. He said "If you cant hear the soloist then you are playing too loud."

 

 

 

 

 

[abzurd]

One of the most enjoyable bands I heard perform live is Brickhouse out of Vancouver. They did not turn up for solos, everybody else simply got out of the way. Easy gig for the FOH guy because things didn't get louder as the night went on.

 

When I was just starting out I went to pay the band's union dues and the secretary was a retired clarinet player. He was talking to me about the higher volumes of amplified music. He said "If you cant hear the soloist then you are playing too loud."

 

 

As a generic statement sure, dynamics are important. Depending on the genre it may not be all that practical though. Heavier genres can't have the drummer suddenly sounding like he broke out the brushes and went into a shuffle to give room to the over driven guitar solo. In live music it's completely normal to boost the solos. It just shouldn't be a constant fader ride and battle between players, sneaking gains up all night trying to fix the "I need a little more me" issue on their own. A band mixing from stage needs musicality like the dynamics you mention, as well as discipline and understanding that altering their volumes after sound check negatively impacts the final product.

[Audiopile]

 

As a generic statement sure, dynamics are important. Depending on the genre it may not be all that practical though. Heavier genres can't have the drummer suddenly sounding like he broke out the brushes and went into a shuffle to give room to the over driven guitar solo.

Agreed. With our band, that was part of the education involved with working with the limitations of "mixing from stage"... or basically having to set and forget the mixer knobs. Some of the songs we do simply didn't translate well to "no soundman at the board"... other songs we can still do and do well, although admittedly we do them differently without a soundman... and we've come up with a whole bunch of new/good songs specifically to work well without a soundman. Sure, it's fun to run the full-on rig with a capable soundman at the board... it's also a 2 - 3 hour set-up and a lot more gear and cost. The 20 - 30 minute set-up does have it's appeal... especially if the quality of the product can be maintained. Admittedly the product is different, but we've made the changes to actually improve the quality, and we've found the different/less heavy genre product is actually more in demand as well as opening the door for playing the abundant and better paying venues that have postage stamp sized stages and are challenging to run a snake and place a mix board and an FX rack somewhere "out in the crowd".

 

 

[StratGuy22]

I haven't touched anything on my amp in ages. If I need more me, I give myself more guitar i my monitor instead of turning up. Same with the rest of the band. Pretty easy to bump someone up if they need it.

 

 

 

We have a scene scene for each venue and it saves the monitor mixes. Once I set the gains, everyone's monitors are pretty close. As I've said before and you touch on it, you have to play together as a band to really make it work. I can back off the volume on my guitar during the other guitarists lead, then step on the gas during my lead.

[Pro Sound Guy]

abzurd I made it through your video. I couldnt make it through the other videos posted. You guys are a pretty decent cover act.

Sound off stage for club acts can be done very well when the musicians know how to play with each other and sound good

from the source.

[abzurd]

abzurd I made it through your video. I couldnt make it through the other videos posted. You guys are a pretty decent cover act.

Sound off stage for club acts can be done very well when the musicians know how to play with each other and sound good

from the source.

 

Thanks! We just keep rolling along. Considering our 2001 roots, we've been incredibly stable. We've slowed from ~60 shows a year at one point to around 40, but haven't taken more than 2 weeks off in a row since March of 2001. The drummer and I (singer) are original members. The keyboard player replaced a guitar player in 2003. 2 other guitar players over the years with the current one joining in 2009 and only the second bass player, who joined us in 2011. Not much of a stage show, but we try and do justice musically and sound quality wise. It's a hoot entertaining 20 somethings at wedding receptions when the youngest guy in the band is me at nearly 46. The keyboard player just turned 62. I guess we'll keep going until the bookings dry up.

[OneEng]

Here is our band mixed from stage. Note the iPad Mini on my mic stand. The X32 Rack mixer is behind me on the floor.

 

I would love to have a dedicated sound man to run things, but for those of us that don't have that luxury, an iPad on the stand directly in front of you with a good app is about as good as it gets.

 

 

[Audiopile]

It's a hoot entertaining 20 somethings at wedding receptions when the youngest guy in the band is me at nearly 46.

You know: When I was 16 (as I vaguely recall) I played my first professional (paid) gig... and most of the folks in the audience were 10+ years my senior... same-same when I was 25, 35, 45. Now I'm in my late 50's and things are starting to change. It's still the same that a healthy percentage of the audiences are 5 - 15+ years my elder, but one and even two generation younger folks are populating the audience in ever increasing percentages. We're performing songs that we expect appeal to the folks in attendance that are older than myself, but what blows me away is the one and two generation younger folks in attendance that seemingly know all the words to many or most songs we do... like "Theme To An Imaginary Western" for example.

 

 

[basschaplain]

I had a couple this year requested we play '70s music for their reception. Bride and Groom are both 24 yrs old.

[abzurd]

I can totally appreciate that. Our number one comment we get from reception patrons are that we play such a wide variety. Obviously that's by design to get the receptions in the first place. It is fun seeing 100+ people spanning roughly 6 decades out on the dance floor. Tunes like Shout, Brown Eyed Girl, Play That Funky Music and Mustang Sally are indeed tired, old tunes every band is sick of playing, but those types of tunes aren't about artistry, they are about entertaining. I'd rather entertain all night to a packed dance floor than play obscure, self serving tunes.

 

BTW, my first paid gig was roughly the same age. We did a high school talent show that led to doing a few dances at the school.

[OneEng]

We also do a really wide range of music .... and also get great feedback on the setlist. While those staples may be old and tired, everyone knows them and familiarity goes a long way to making people like what they are hearing.

 

Like Abzurd says, I would much rather play an entire night of tired old songs with an energetic dance floor full of people having a great time that playing music that only the band loves to a dead audience.

 

Weddings seem to be a unique situation with regards to age of the audience.....quite a spread. Still, the meat and potatoes of the evening is always the toe tapping stuff. Generally the crowd average age goes down after dinner and speaches, the music volume goes up, and the alcohol has removed most (if not all) inhibitions .... all of which combines to pack the dance floor.

 

In bars, depending on the bar, I either get 30-40 somethings, or 40-60 somethings. We adjust the music to fit. I rarely get a bar gig with many 20 somethings in it these days.

 

I think we are going to do more weddings this spring, summer and fall than last year. I just like them much more in general.

[Mogwix]

One of the bands I work for has a similar set up. They're a 3-piece with IEMs and backing tracks.

 

We have an X32 Rack with an S16 expander which is normally dedicated to the IEM mixes. Sometimes we run the FOH from the X32 rack, but not too often. The X32 connects to a wireless router and I do all my mixing from an iPad. The guitar player has every song sequenced into Ableton Live with outputs for Guitar Rig, the backing tracks, and click tracks for the IEMS. He runs Ableton on a macbook pro which lives on a stand next to him on stage. I've never tried to sequence lighting with MIDI but I'm sure that shouldn't be a problem.

 

We've been using Jands Vista (http://jands.com/vista/) with a small control surface to control lighting. It works well. I don't have much experience with it (I'm not an LD) but I'm sure you could run it from the same laptop and sequence the light shows rather easily.

 

I've used the X32 + iPad for my own band with great success; I have a wireless system for my bass and I can run out front to check levels during soundcheck.