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COMPLETE WIRELESS RIG MELT DOWN ST. PADDYS DAY


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The band I was playing with has the new XR18 air Behringer rig. The Wireless worked fine at soundcheck then neither the computer would sync to it or the ipad once we got there and the place was full. I suspect Beta Software issues, maybe some user error and wireless interference. We were DEAD in the water....So, we went and got a Mackie DL1608 that I use for corporate gigs and my ipad was synced to it. Pulled everything out of the Behringer hooked up the mackie sound checked, tried to get some semblance of ears going (It was a ROUGH night!) and got it good enough to play. However my buddy was running sound and very shortly after we started he started having sync issues with the ipad out front as well. So he had to keep running from the back of the stage where the board was ( I didn't set it up this way, I only fill in for this group on GTR) and it was a real drag. He salvaged the night and we got through..It was a new rig this band was running, all new Wireless ears which we never got even close to dialed in on the Mackie and I ended up taking one of mine out to listen to reflection off the side of the main and my Direct Kemper in my ears..NO AMP on stage so it was rough!!

 

Anyway, anyone else have WIFI issues like this or heard of anything? This was a gig for the record books in over 25 years of gigging. One of the handful of worst/roughest. Sometimes technology IS NOT your friend I am learning.

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These new "input only" mixers are cheap and stealthy, and when everything works they are pretty slick, but wifi and tablet dependency introduce 2 more catastrophic failure points that aren't an issue with a mixer that has a physical interface to fall back on. One more layer of protection is afforded with a hard wired connection via a computer. You learned the hard way you need that at the ready or you're rolling the dice. Even then, the computer is a failure point too. Nothing beats a physical interface as a fail safe.

 

At the end of the day you should always carry some "all analog" backup mixer. We have a 15 yr old Carvin SM162 12 channel mixer and pray we'll never have to use it, but if we did we'd live. I considered a more elaborate backup, but when stuff hits the fan I want the simplest thing to transition to quickly. Our plan is to daisy chain off the mains for a single monitor mix, reduce backing vocal inputs, and switch the e-drums from 6 inputs to a stereo pair off the headphone output using an insert cable and mixing the drums off the analog mixer on the module. Basically, things we'll notice, but the crowd wouldn't. The simplest thing to get up quickly and limp by on.

 

Given the cost, size, and capability, I briefly considered one of these new wifi boxes as the backup, but then came to my senses realizing a backup is all about getting up and running with minimum fuss. A real interface with fewer controls is the way to go. We've also proven the theory using the backup plan in the past when we played live on a parade float using the little mixer, but that was circa 2008. Roughly once a year I'll take it out of the back of the van and make sure it still works. This thread motivates me to pull the old mixer out today and give it the once over.

 

Oh, and FWIW, I have had wireless freak out moment myself. My DL1608 lost wifi at a gig AND the ipad wouldn't sync. Luckily I had another ipad that did sync. Like you, everything worked when sound checking. I now use a Qu-16, which has a full physical interface plus all the wifi bells and whistles. It's basically a mixwiz on steroids.

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I carry an Alesis Multi-Mix 16 firewire as a backup and recording mixer. But the Mackie DL1608 has never failed me. It does weird things from time to time, but nothing that has killed a show. Interesting that with all the talk about the Mackie mixers being crap, that one of the VERY LONG awaited Behringer mixers crapped out at its first gig.

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As much distain as I have for Behringer, you can't jump to the conclusion of blaming the mixer with the information given. Wifi is a battlefield. Between competing devices and user error, there's no guarantee it will work. The OP needs a computer backup solution and a wifi scanner. I also strongly suggest an external router running 5 Ghz. 2.4 is way more crowded and my guess is that would have solved it.

 

BTW, apple has a free wifi scanner via their airport app. Thanks to Roadranger for turning me on to it on his Mackie forum. You just have to go to the settings in the IOS and turn on the scanner part within the airport airport app.

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I couldn't find any real info on the Behringer websites about what version of wifi they are doing but I wouldn't suspect that the Behringer piece was the problem. If you are going to depend on wi-if then you need to learn about wi-fi. It is not particularly robust but in most situations it should work fine for controlling mixers.

 

 

 

One of of the first things to learn is that you probably have little control over local interference and a cell phone in every pocket once the gig starts isn't helping matters. AsSean suggests, here's where switching over to 802.11n or a/c on 5GHz will be a big help. If you play in big hotels you can expect to actually run into wi-if jamming. Hotels like you to pay to turn them off 😉

 

 

 

You must maintain direct line of sight. That can be difficult if the wi-if antenna is table-top high. Again an external router with an external antenna can help. Proper antenna polarization is also important as well as distance from walls (usually about 6 feet for 2.4G omni antennas.

 

 

 

If if you are using an iPad that can be its own problem especially if you ever connect it up to anything but your mixer's local network. Sometimes flipping the "forget this network" switch and starting over is the only way ton eat it to connect.

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As much distain as I have for Behringer, you can't jump to the conclusion of blaming the mixer with the information given. Wifi is a battlefield. Between competing devices and user error, there's no guarantee it will work. The OP needs a computer backup solution and a wifi scanner. I also strongly suggest an external router running 5 Ghz. 2.4 is way more crowded and my guess is that would have solved it.

 

BTW, apple has a free wifi scanner via their airport app. Thanks to Roadranger for turning me on to it on his Mackie forum. You just have to go to the settings in the IOS and turn on the scanner part within the airport airport app.

 

So an Airport works at 5Ghz? This is the conclusion I've come to as well. an External Router and I was considering an Airport because I'm usually all Apple...

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So an Airport works at 5Ghz? This is the conclusion I've come to as well. an External Router and I was considering an Airport because I'm usually all Apple...

 

You don't necessarily need an airport. I've used a $20 Vizeo router for a few years now with no issues. I'm sure there are ones with longer range, but I've not needed anything better.

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Wow, I'm sorry about your experience, I can't imagine the feedback from the the funding party. :( Do you know if this band ever had their rig setup and tested before this gig? Or is this one of those never-used-the-gear before gigs? I had that experience one time, it's just miserable. You want to crawl in a corner and vanish.

 

 

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First , were you using the built in wifi on the XR18? That's been known to give some people ( not everyone ) some issues since it's locked in at 2.4g 2nd, You said you had trouble with the DL1608, Were you using a dual band router ? I think if you are using ANY digital mixer a router that has 2.4 and 5gh bands are needed ESPECIALLY in large crowded areas with lots of people on their phones . Android has a app to find the best wireless channels to use I'd use that to help you find a less congested channel . The XR18 has only been peoples hands for about 3 weeks or so updates to firmware and apps are coming out almost every week so it's still growing , kinda like when the DL1608 first came out.

 

Here is what I plan on doing at shows with the XR18. A dual band external router is a must, not only for the 2 bands but placement of the antenna can be important . But with the XR18 and Presonus's RM16/32 AI you can use it cross platforms ( PC, Mac) and in Behringers case android so you can run wireless AND wired connections to a laptop , Mac or PC . Meaning that even if you have wifi failure , with a cat 5 cable connected from the router you will have a solid connection . You could even run a long one to FOH and mix from there

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Major bummer.

 

THIS is why as an audio provider that has some liability towards the audio working, I would never, ever rely only on wireless control. There are just to many things that could possibly happen that are not just out of your control, but also likely not visible without sophisticated analysis tools.

 

Imagine you are a paid, contracted audiio provider, you show up with your "TAS" (that's trick as s*it) wireless digital mixer, there are say $20k worth of tickets sold, your console does what your console did and the band, per the terms of their contract, walk with the promoter in the hole for say $8k. The show doesn't happen, the promoter is on the hook for the cost of the band, the advertising, the venue, the show expenses AND now has to refund the tickets. The promoter is now in the hole $15k versus a $5k profit. What do you suppose might happen next, and who do you think the promoter will go after for that loss?

 

Generally, they have to show that there was some negligence on the part of the sound company, but that would be pretty easy since nobody in their right mind would operate a console without a console back-up, and these days without either a back-up console (usually the monitor console) or a console that is fault tolerant and has a known, proven record of high reliability. Why would anybody choose a "budget" solution in a situation like this, it sure makes spending another $5k or $10k for high reliability look like a bargain now eh?

 

This was my life for close to 30 years, and no problems in the thousands of shows I provided audio for. While I got poked fun at for not being bleeding state of the art, I didn't suffer the bleeding state of the art failures either. I did make some pretty good money (at the expense of some state of the art attitude" renting my big in-house analog console in an emergency situation a few times when a brought in state of the art console failed at an inopportune time. Probably paid for 1/2 of my big analog console and the guys in that situation were grateful for the opportunity to complete their contracted obligation. Most were earlier digital consoles, but there was one big Soundcraft analog console and relatively new DigiCo console that had a catastrophic computer failure (failure to boot, failure to pass hardware self-check).

 

IMO, these inexpensive digital wireless mixer products are really "toys" compared with the mjore robust offerings, so you need to be sure that a failure won't put you (and/or your clients) in a bad spot.

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The band I was playing with has the new XR18 air Behringer rig. The Wireless worked fine at soundcheck then neither the computer would sync to it or the ipad once we got there and the place was full. I suspect Beta Software issues' date=' maybe some user error and wireless interference. We were DEAD in the water...[/quote']It's not clear from this if you had the computer connected wired or wireless? I'd be very surprised if the wired connection failed!

 

 

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There was a computer hooked up as well that wasn't working...

 

The band had done 2 gigs with the XR18 air prior. Just jammed up airwaves, the built in WIFI was all they had and all the software is in beta. FAIL!

 

We had problems with the mackie rig as well an I don't know what the router is hooked up to it. I suspect it's just a one band.

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I have never seen this happen with a good 'ol analog console ;)

 

 

 

Other thing, yes. Catastrophic things, yes rarely. This sort of thing, no.

 

haven't seen one in a professional setup in years. That age is over and the flexibility of digital is an advantage you gotta have. You just need to run a platform that works and know how to make up for the disadvantages I would think.

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BETA is exactly what it is. A test platform of software. ;)

Patch time!

 

Right. My partner who came in to run sound was FLABBERGASTED that they were running a setup LIVE with Beta software!!! We NEVER would have done that but again, it wasn't my gig. I was filling in on guitar and brought my production partner to run sound. Nightmare!

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A dual band router is a must ' date=' and the XR18 can be easily be run hard wired with a computer WITH the dual band router [/quote']

 

Yea, they had a computer hooked up to it as well and it wasn't syncing. Software, setup, user error I think and he wouldn't let my buddy who is WAY WAY more savy about software than the guy who owned it, in there to try to figure it out so.........

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Just as an aside, you don't "need" a router, just an AP. Typical "wireless router" has in it an AP, DHCP server, router and multiport switch. Just for yucks I got in a dual band AP to try with my DL1608. As it doesn't have a DHCP server I'll be using static IPs - but the DL1608 has issues with DHPC servers anyways that's bitten me a couple times. It only looks for DHCP servers when you first power it on so you have to be very careful to let your router finish booting before powering on the DL1608 - and that takes quite a long time with my router. No so much an issue the first time but if you have to move the power cord over to another outlet/strip or whatever (or otherwise have a momentary power loss) UR screwed - The DL1608 boots up almost instantly but then you have no wireless until the router finishes booting, and then you have to reboot the DL1608 again. Not cool frown.gif .

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haven't seen one in a professional setup in years. That age is over and the flexibility of digital is an advantage you gotta have. You just need to run a platform that works and know how to make up for the disadvantages I would think.

 

Preposterous comment... without considering the wide range of acts touring.

 

In the last year, we had a PM-5k, XL-250, Heritage 3k and of all things a Crest V12 come through. These were all sold out shows, the touring company provided the consoles and FX/Drive per the band engineer's choice. (The V-12 was band engineer owned, and ironically was the same console I did a frame up rebuild on about 10 years ago)

 

The same may not be true 5 years from now, but it's not a "must have advantage", as the mixes on the analog consoles were every bit as good (or maybe even better as the engineer paid better attention to what was happening on stage) as the digital solution.

 

There are some good digital solutions, but IMO not at the bottom of the market. Your experience highlights this IMO.

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