Members JamesTn75 Posted February 21, 2015 Members Share Posted February 21, 2015 Ok I have a modest little PA system. Most of it was bought in a hurry and on a limited budget. Now 2 years later, I am wanting to upgrade some pieces. I have a $2000 budget right now and would like to upgrade at least a couple of the pieces. My group is a Southern Gospel Quartet. We play mostly churches/auditoriums that seat 200-500. We do about 3 outdoor venues per year that have audiences of about 150-200 with the furthest audience member being less than 75 feet away. Being a gospel group we don't need extreme volume. We have 4 vocalists and play 1 instrument live (keyboard) along with "split" accompaniment tracks that have the keyboard removed (tracks have drums, electric/acoustic guitars, bass guitar, orchestrations.. etc, etc)... We are a fairly busy part-time group performing at around 80 shows per year. I will list our current PA equipment below and I'd like advice on which piece(s) would be best to upgrade first. Remember we only have $2000 to spend on upgrades at this time! Currently we have passive FOH speakers, monitors and subwoofers but would consider going to powered speakers/monitors/subs. The PA we currently use does the job OK, but I feel it's time to get some better pieces. Not looking to build the best system out there, just something better than what we have now. Can't decide what needs to be upgraded the most. Thanks in advance! Current PA System: 2 - Alto Professional TS112's (FOH)2 - Peavey PV 118 Subs3 - EV ZX1 8 Inch Monitors (This is the only thing we are NOT wanting to change right now as these do a great job for us and our application)1 - Yamaha MG124CX Mixer1 - Behringer Ultragraph Dual 31-band EQ2 - Peavey IPR 3000 Amps (1 for mains, 1 for subs)1 - Peavey IPR 1600 Amp - (Monitor amp)4 - Audio Technica M8000 Microphones - (Cheap mics, just OK quality and sound) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members OneEng Posted February 21, 2015 Members Share Posted February 21, 2015 I think the first thing you should take care of are the FOH speakers. Then we should do something about those microphones as well. My rock band self always wants the subs to be taken care of first, but in your case, I think you should take care of your tops first. 4 vocals tells me that you guys are heavily into harmony. I am guessing you are quite good at it With that in mind ..... I would suggest a pair of DSR112's. You should be able to get these for $800.00 each if you ask around. That leaves you with $400.00. I would get 4 EV ND767a microphones. Before you get 4 of the microphones, I would get just one. Compare it to your existing microphones and see how you like it. These microhpones work best when you are close to them, so if you have singers that stray more than 7-10 inches away from the microphone on a regular basis, these might not be the best for you as well as a microphone with a less tight pickup pattern. These microphones are warm and articulate and are particularly good at rejecting feedback on stage. The DSR112's are a very professional level top. In this price category, I haven't heard anything that touches them. They pack a hefty punch in the low mids as well, so feel free to set your cross-over down to around 90Hz. This will also relieve your subs from their load. BTW, I don't see a cross-over in your list of gear. Are you running a full range signal to both your tops and your subs? If that is the case, then you should run the DSR's with their HPF engaged (I think it is set at around 110Hz), but you might want to play around to see how you like the sound. The only reason I am suggesting this is that those PV subs are pretty weak compared to the DSR's. The DSR's are going to run circles around your subs, but there isn't much that can be done about that without more money to spend. I have had my DSR's outside for a lake gig for an area about as large as half a football field. Standing clear out on the dock (as far from the stage as I could go), the bass, vocals and guitars were still sounding beautiful .... although the limit lights were flickering all night long. Someone was supposed to have subs that night so I didn't bring mine. I ended up doing what I could, but it was a great test of these tops under a silly load they shouldn't have had to handle. Anyway, good luck and let us know how you end up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JamesTn75 Posted February 21, 2015 Author Members Share Posted February 21, 2015 Thanks for responding OneEng!... My first thought was to replace the FOH speakers as well. I've heard great things about the Yamaha DSR's although I've never heard them in person. I've looked at the DSR's online as well as the EV ELX112P's and the JBL PRX712's... Currently I do not have a crossover but the Behringer EQ has a "sub out" option and thats what I've been using. Have it set to around 120hz-ish (if I remember correctly without looking at it). You are correct, we concentrate heavily on 4 part harmony... I like to hear a decent amount of "thump" from our subs, but it's not the most important thing with our style of music either... Most of the other "southern gospel groups" we encounter here locally have either EV ELX112P's,JBL EON612's,or QSC K12's (not been really impressed with the K12's I've heard).... My first thought was to get 2 EV ELX112P's, 4 EV ND767's and then possibly (if I could find scrape up another couple hundred) a new mixer (either a Mackie ProFx16 or a Yamaha MG16XU)... I keep seeing good things about the DSR's online... Going to do a little more research on them now... May end up with them instead... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Al Poulin Posted February 21, 2015 Members Share Posted February 21, 2015 Here's a review I did on the DSR112s : Used with subs, you will have TONS of headroom. They are the loudest compact 12s I've ever tested. Not very strong in the low frequencies when used stand alone, but more than ample power and SPL capability as well as a fantasticly durable finish. 7 year warranty too... Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Art Flood Posted February 21, 2015 Members Share Posted February 21, 2015 Yep I'd agree with OneEng - I'd definitely go with the DSR's or PRX over the Alto's. The ELX112 would also be a step up but not quite in the same league as the DSRs and PRXs. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members hfc7713 Posted February 21, 2015 Members Share Posted February 21, 2015 +1 on the DSR112s - Loud, clear, punchy - I love the way they bring out the vocals in the mix - my favorite 12" speakers under $1000.I also own JBL PRX series, QSC K series and EV ELX series in powered boxes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members OneEng Posted February 22, 2015 Members Share Posted February 22, 2015 Thanks for responding OneEng!... My first thought was to replace the FOH speakers as well. I've heard great things about the Yamaha DSR's although I've never heard them in person. I've looked at the DSR's online as well as the EV ELX112P's and the JBL PRX712's... Currently I do not have a crossover but the Behringer EQ has a "sub out" option and thats what I've been using. Have it set to around 120hz-ish (if I remember correctly without looking at it). You are correct' date=' we concentrate heavily on 4 part harmony... I like to hear a decent amount of "thump" from our subs, but it's not the most important thing with our style of music either... Most of the other "southern gospel groups" we encounter here locally have either EV ELX112P's,JBL EON612's,or QSC K12's (not been really impressed with the K12's I've heard).... My first thought was to get 2 EV ELX112P's, 4 EV ND767's and then possibly (if I could find scrape up another couple hundred) a new mixer (either a Mackie ProFx16 or a Yamaha MG16XU)... I keep seeing good things about the DSR's online... Going to do a little more research on them now... May end up with them instead... [/quote'] Interesting EQ. It is pretty clear that the subwoofer output on the EQ uses the cross-over set point; however, I don't see anywhere that it states that the stereo outputs are effected by the cross-over set point (although this would be how one would think it would work). You might want to pose a question to Behringer to see how this works just to be sure. If you wanted to be sure, you could set the sub cross-over output to around 110Hz and use the DSR112 HPF to cut out the LF from the top. It is kind of a shame since I have found that the 90-110Hz response of these speakers is fantastic. If it is at all possible, go listen to the DSR's vs your other options yourself. Remember that for vocals, clarity is very important since it makes it much easier to keep your vocals out front and clear. Al's review is pretty accurate. If you audition the DSR's in a small area, keep in mind that once you put them into action in a larger area, lots of that high frequency output is going to get sucked up by the space. I agree on the K12's btw. They are "OK", but sound a little brittle to my ear especially when pushed hard. Certainly not a bad speaker, but there are better options at this price point IMHO. The mixer may well be your next best investment. I think you are going to be shocked at the difference with new tops though. I would wait until you get this part ironed out before you change the mixer. Once you are ready for the mixer, I think you should start researching the new Behringer XR series (for a digital board) and the Allen & Heath ZED series (for an analog board). I would lean toward the XR series simply due to the outstanding plate verb offered in the new Behringer digital mixers. I own an X32 Rack and was really shocked at how much better the verbs and delay were than my old MixWiz. If analog is your future, it is really hard to beat the ZED series for the features and price. A used MixWiz is also a great option ... especially if you pair it up with a used TC Electronics M-One XL for your vocal processing. Let us know how your research is proceeding Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Audiopyle Sound Posted February 22, 2015 Members Share Posted February 22, 2015 Going to do a little more research on them now... May end up with them instead... Check your PMs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted February 22, 2015 Members Share Posted February 22, 2015 That's all OK stuff. I'd maybe upgrade the mics to SM58's. Just because you have cash doesn't mean you have to spend it . If you are using the internal "crossovers" on the IPR3000's I'd pick up a DBX 223 - having a HPF on the subs is important IMO. If you are replacing the tops definitely get powered ones and sell the extra IPR3000 - they will be biamp'd and processed and be a big step up from what you have. I'm partial to RCF 310A's, I have 5 now . I used a pair last night with a 7 piece horn band without subs - and still had plenty of kick and toms in them . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JamesTn75 Posted February 22, 2015 Author Members Share Posted February 22, 2015 Hi again OneEng... Thanks for all your great comments/help... The Ultragraph EQ is kind of interesting or at least different. It has the "sub out" on the back of the unit which does have a knob and it seems to work like a crossover for the sub. From my 2 years using it, adjusting the sub out does not seem to affect the stereo mix at all. On the front panel of the EQ there is a "Low Cut" and a "High Cut" knob for each channel. I keep the "Low Cut" at about 110hz to 120hz then set the "Sub Out" at 120hz. Now, whether this is a correct way to set all of this, I have no idea.. lol... Technically speaking I am not the smartest person when it comes to an EQ or Crossover. I have a very good grasp on the Mixer and using Aux Out's, Subgroups -etc, etc... I do not use the crossover switches on the IPR amps at all... Keep them set to "Full Range"... I have a good ear for sound, but technical knowledge is limited. I know how to "ring out" a system and I think our sound is very good, compared to other groups out there we hear in our area that have a lot better equipment than we do. But that being said, it takes me a long while to EQ and get those Alto speakers to a point where I think they sound "good". Our EV ZX1 monitors are totally different. They sound very good with very little effort. It's sad but our monitor set is usually better sounding than our FOH speaker sound. I sang with a group that used a MixWiz a few years ago and it definitely sounded great. I also owned and used a SoundCraft mixer for a few years that I loved, but it gave up the ghost after being dropped down a flight of stairs... lol... I think changing our FOH speakers out for a much better speaker will definitely improve our sound. Unfortunately there is no where local for me to go demo any of these speakers. There are only 3 local stores around me and none of them carry much in the way of powered speakers. The closest place is about 2 hours away and don't have the time to take a trip to hear speakers right now. Online companies have killed out our local stores for the most part. So I am gonna have to go strictly on the advice of others and go by reviews I've read... I still like the idea of updating the Mics and Mixer soon also. Next year the subs are going to be updated also. One thing at a time I guess... Thanks so much for all your help, I am still thinking about it but I am leaning toward the DSR112's... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JamesTn75 Posted February 22, 2015 Author Members Share Posted February 22, 2015 Thanks guys, all of this is giving me a lot to think about... Keep the suggestions coming! Going to make a decision in a couple days... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members OneEng Posted February 23, 2015 Members Share Posted February 23, 2015 Interesting EQ. It is pretty clear that the subwoofer output on the EQ uses the cross-over set point; however, I don't see anywhere that it states that the stereo outputs are effected by the cross-over set point (although this would be how one would think it would work). You might want to pose a question to Behringer to see how this works just to be sure. If you wanted to be sure, you could set the sub cross-over output to around 110Hz and use the DSR112 HPF to cut out the LF from the top. It is kind of a shame since I have found that the 90-110Hz response of these speakers is fantastic. If it is at all possible, go listen to the DSR's vs your other options yourself. Remember that for vocals, clarity is very important since it makes it much easier to keep your vocals out front and clear. Al's review is pretty accurate. If you audition the DSR's in a small area, keep in mind that once you put them into action in a larger area, lots of that high frequency output is going to get sucked up by the space. I agree on the K12's btw. They are "OK", but sound a little brittle to my ear especially when pushed hard. Certainly not a bad speaker, but there are better options at this price point IMHO. The mixer may well be your next best investment. I think you are going to be shocked at the difference with new tops though. I would wait until you get this part ironed out before you change the mixer. Once you are ready for the mixer, I think you should start researching the new Behringer XR series (for a digital board) and the Allen & Heath ZED series (for an analog board). I would lean toward the XR series simply due to the outstanding plate verb offered in the new Behringer digital mixers. I own an X32 Rack and was really shocked at how much better the verbs and delay were than my old MixWiz. If analog is your future, it is really hard to beat the ZED series for the features and price. A used MixWiz is also a great option ... especially if you pair it up with a used TC Electronics M-One XL for your vocal processing. Let us know how your research is proceeding I believe I saw a note in the manual for your eq that stated that the sub output was effected by the high pass settings of the eq as well as the setting of the knob on back for the sub output cross-over. It is really sad that so many stores have gone under leaving many with no place to audition speakers and gear If you have to go on advice from others, my only advice is to see what the users had before the product you are looking at that they have now. For instance .... if someone says that the ELX112p sounds louder than anyone would ever need, and their last speaker was a JRX112 (low end bottom feeder stuff) that is less useful than someone who is used to using an JBL SRX system that says the DSR112 sounds great and gets very loud (FYI, there is one of those over on Prosound web right now). When I was researching replacing my guitar tube amp for my Kemper digital profiler, this was the approach I took. I believed the reviews of people who were ex-boutique tub amp owners when they said the Kemper sounded just as good as a tube amp. If they would have previously owned a line 6 amp, it wouldn't have had any validity at all. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Unalaska Posted February 23, 2015 Members Share Posted February 23, 2015 Ok, some good ideas here. I'd be more tempted to make better use of what you have first. But the mics NEED to go. 2 things are paramount in live sound p: mics and speakers. use the crossover in the ipr amp not the eq. The eq has a really crappy slope and I'm no convinced it's a decent eq anyway. If you can a dbx 231 would be better. the mixer is just fine, yeah the wall wart isn't fun but who cares. Mains, powered is fine. You paid for the amps so passive is great too. Why not some ev sx300s? Passive speakers are selling so cheap it's worth a look. Also consider going wireless for vocals, but you'd need something decent. Cheap wireless is a waste of money, it will only hurt in the long run. Get a 4sp rack, 4 1/2 rack wireless receivers and a 2u drawer to put mics and batteries in. Heavy but gets the job done every time .Shure plx is not acceptable. Shure SLX, Audiotechnica 3000 series, sennnhieser 300 something, line 6 or better, no exceptions. Ok, that's it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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