Members shiftnup Posted February 17, 2015 Members Share Posted February 17, 2015 After considering the next upgrade for my pa I've decided to add a good effects unit for vocals. What's the best option or options in the $500-$1000 range? I have a good quality pa, Yamaha, jbl, Allen and heath, etc., so I think additional versus better equipment is the chosen route for this purchase. Mostly singing rock / hard rock, but not a cookie monster screamer at all. Male vocals, primarily for one vocalist, although I suppose additional might be possible in the future. Sound quality over bells and whistles is my preference, but obviously the price range is somewhat limited. I have a voiceplay live, I think. It's the blue floor stompbox model, about 300 retail, which was fine for starting out, but think it's not quite what I would consider rack quality gear. Any suggestions?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members abzurd Posted February 17, 2015 Members Share Posted February 17, 2015 I have a voiceplay live' date=' I think. It's the blue floor stompbox model, about 300 retail, which was fine for starting out, but think it's not quite what I would consider rack quality gear. Any suggestions??[/quote'] That's actually a pretty spanky unit and a great bang for the buck. It's every bit "rack quality" as something you'd rack. It's also tailored, feature wise, for vocals. It's what I use as a backup. My main processor is a VoiceLive 3. Sonically they are similar, the VL3 just has more bells and whistles with more flexibility for live performance.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members the_big_e Posted February 17, 2015 Members Share Posted February 17, 2015 Equipment does not the singer make! I play keys and use a Harmony-M for my little solo thing (farmer's markets and coffee shops for tips, net exactly professional!). I am no great shakes as a singer but it works fine for my needs, a little reverb and some harmony for the couple of songs I use that on. The reality is the I don't use most of the effects and so while I did consider getting a better unit, in the end I saved my money because what I have works fine.So first off, I'd figure out why you want a better unit and what you want from it. Then ask yourself if your existing unit does what you need and if/where it is lacking. At that point you should be able to make a reasonable decision as to your needs. And your needs may turn out to be that the existing unit is fine. In my experience it's easier to spend it than to earn it!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Crownman Posted February 17, 2015 Members Share Posted February 17, 2015 I've been happy with the TC M-One XL I run it dual mono. 2 very good separate fx in one rack space. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members nchangin Posted February 17, 2015 Members Share Posted February 17, 2015 Don't the new B racks have some very good effects already built in? I mean if you can buy a new mixer with good effects for the same price as a good processor........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members shiftnup Posted February 17, 2015 Author Members Share Posted February 17, 2015 Nchangin, thank you for the response but a mixer change is definitely not in the cards. I'm currently using a mixwizard4, just purchased two months ago, and I'm completely happy with it. I have zero complaints so far, and haven't once had an issue with feedback since adding it to my system. Which, is the main reason I considered an effects processor, because when I used the voiceplay in the past it was very easy to get feedback through the pa. I suppose I could have been doing something incorrectly, but before the mixer I was running it directly to dxr 12 mains, channel one at line level, and would easily get feedback with the voiceplay gain set much above12 o clock. To me it was fun to use, but once I added the mixer and used a proper setup, the sound was just better, perhaps cleaner??? I've wondered about hooking the voiceplay up to the mixer, but haven't tried it. I guess the other admission is perhaps I'm certain on the best way to do it either. Obviously I could run mic to voiceplay, voiceplay to mixer, out to mains, but what if I need, or want multiple vocals processed? I'm sure someone with more experience could easily school me on how to run selected mics to an aux, into voiceplay, back to mix, and perhaps that's the best way to do it. I guess I figured a dedicated piece would be the best approach, although maybe I'm misguided there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Unalaska Posted February 17, 2015 Members Share Posted February 17, 2015 Since the fall of the analog mixer the choices for effects processors has diminished. But there are plenty of great ones still out there. The voiceplay live and stomp box effects are designed to be used for a single input, something like the TC M-one would be designed for parallel effects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 17, 2015 Members Share Posted February 17, 2015 I have a clean used lexicon PCM-81 that would fit your budget. It's pretty much THE go to piece for top of the line verbs. New, it was 2-3 times your budget . PM me if interested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DanCostello Posted February 17, 2015 Members Share Posted February 17, 2015 I have a clean used lexicon PCM-81 that would fit your budget. It's pretty much THE go to piece for top of the line verbs. New' date=' it was 2-3 times your budget . PM me if interested.[/quote'] ^^^This^^^. I was going to suggest a TC M-One + a D-Two, but then I remembered that the wet/dry controls are set via knobs on the front and not programmable, which would make it tough if you're trying to operate it while performing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members abzurd Posted February 17, 2015 Members Share Posted February 17, 2015 You have a mizwiz right? So basic verb is already there. Between that and the VoiceLivePlay that's already owned, this doesn't seem like a place that needs money spent, especially if it's just for a jam space. You're already ahead of the curve. Most weekend warrior gigging bands don't have it this good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members shiftnup Posted February 17, 2015 Author Members Share Posted February 17, 2015 Abzurd, how would you recommend running the voiceplay in the system? This is where I'm definitely not as experienced, I've only had the mixer two months. Should I a) run mic to voiceplay, voiceplay to mixer? Or B) run mic to mixer as it is now, and use an aux for the voiceplay? I'm not proficient with aux function just yet. So could you please give some direction as to the pro's and con's of each? I know when I used to run the voiceplay directly to the dxrs, before I had the mixer, feedback was a problem. With the mixer, no voiceplay in the system, I'm totally clean, never once had a feedback issue. Same space, same mic and monitor placement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members abzurd Posted February 17, 2015 Members Share Posted February 17, 2015 Abzurd' date=' how would you recommend running the voiceplay in the system? This is where I'm definitely not as experienced, I've only had the mixer two months. Should I a) run mic to voiceplay, voiceplay to mixer? Or B) run mic to mixer as it is now, and use an aux for the voiceplay? I'm not proficient with aux function just yet. So could you please give some direction as to the pro's and con's of each? I know when I used to run the voiceplay directly to the dxrs, before I had the mixer, feedback was a problem. With the mixer, no voiceplay in the system, I'm totally clean, never once had a feedback issue. Same space, same mic and monitor placement.[/quote'] Effects in your speakers will reduce your gain before feedback (meaning you can't get as loud before the onset of feedback). This is especially true with some of the extreme effects like megaphone type stuff. This is another reason why orienting the speakers as monitors will help. It can keep the speaker out of the microphone more and give you more volume hitting your ears. As for how to run it, units like that are meant to run in line from mic to EFX and into the mixer. I can't remember if that one can do a dual mono with dry on one out and efx on the the other, but the VL3 can. It's really not needed for your situation. You also have effects in your mixwizard to which are via the 5th and 6th aux sends if I'm remembering correctly. See the manual on how to use. There's even some editing available via a free app A&H has I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members OneEng Posted February 17, 2015 Members Share Posted February 17, 2015 As Abzurd said, the VoiceLive verbs are quite good .... but designed for mic->VL->Mixer in-line use. The thing I have found with the TC Helicon "auto tone correct" automated EQ is that it tends to cause a ring in my system if turned on. Using my old M-One XL, I got great sounding verbs, but no ring. Agedhorse is correct. That PCM81 is a very top-notch vocal efx processor. Very hard to beat. Abzurd is also correct. You have a setup that would be the envy of most all local bands already. Be careful not to put too much extra into it since you can easily start doing more harm than good The new MixWiz 4 supposedly has much nicer efx than the old WZ3 or WZ2 did. If you have a WZ4, the efx should be quite good. If you have an older MixWiz (not WZ4), I would still recommend the M-OneXL at a minimum, and something like the PCM70/81/92 if you really want the very best money can buy (excluding some items that are completely out of mortal price range). Another thought for your upgrade money would be some lights and a lighting controller. Having a cool light show makes a huge difference to everyone involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members shiftnup Posted February 17, 2015 Author Members Share Posted February 17, 2015 I believe the voiceplay will do dual mono out, one wet, one dry, I guess the suggestion would be to run each to a separate strip on the mixwizard. Which is a mixwizard4. I've been using the effects on the mixwizard, aux 5, and it's ok, just thought another route might be better. I've considered a voicelive 3 in the past, primarily because I like the layout better and having footswitches for the individual effects seemed more appealing and easier to operate as opposed to the voiceplay where almost everything is menu activated. Perhaps that might be a better route to go after adding a decent eq. Thanks for all the help, much appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wesg Posted February 17, 2015 Members Share Posted February 17, 2015 What you haven't discussed -- which I consider strange -- is what effects do you WANT? Compression? Reverb? Slapback? Chorus? Flange? Tap-tempo delay? Harmony? Pitch-correction? Stereo? Mono? What you want to do with the unit will influence what unit you will select, much more than your budget will. My band uses a Lexicon MX-400, this basically four mono or two stereo units in one box. Sort of. Anyhow, we use it for reverb and slap and it's great for that. I am thinking about tweaking it so that it will also lightly compress the vocals sub mix, to try and tighten things up. We also use a TC Helicon Harmony G XT and a Correct XT. The Harmony G XT frustrates me at times because the lead singer thinks he's supposed to drench the room in mud....er, I mean reverb. Stick around here long enough, and you will hear Andy say, "Less is more". He's right. If you don't sound good without effects, you'll never sound good. Wes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members shiftnup Posted February 17, 2015 Author Members Share Posted February 17, 2015 Wesg, ok, so time for a little embarrassment on my part, truthfully, I'm not 100% sure which effects I should add or not. I have experience with high end car audio from yesteryear, so I know a little about speakers, amps, crossovers, etc. Up until recently I've only played guitar, and some drums, but I suck as a drummer, and could likely pass as a rookie rhythm guitarist, in a start up band at best. I just started to sing about 16 months ago, and much to my surprise, I'm getting better, and improving faster, than anything else I've done. I jam with a few friends, one of which played professionally for about 20 years, and over the past few months I just stopped bringing my guitar because I always end up in front of the Mic. I'm not good, but I have made decent progress, and work on it 4-5 nights a week, usually solo. Most of what we play is more hard rock / metal. Godsmack, a few Metalica songs, an occasional Steve Miller, lenny kravitz, chili peppers, etc. Although my latest kick has been five finger death punch versions of house of the rising sun and bad company. So, cough cough, what should I be using for effects?? I definitely want to improve, and certainly agree, poop with sprinkles on top still stinks. That being said, effects can certainly help, or people wouldn't use them, right??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wesg Posted February 17, 2015 Members Share Posted February 17, 2015 You're definitely right about that! You know - it might be an idea to post an audio clip of a song you do really well at one of your jams. Both here, and in the vocals subforum. People might be able to make some good suggestions about what will help YOUR music. That said, IMO, you can't go wrong with the Lexicon MX200/MX400. These have good sounding bread-and-butter outboard effects and a crap ton of configurability. Wes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members shiftnup Posted February 18, 2015 Author Members Share Posted February 18, 2015 Yep, definitely not ready to go public just yet, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members OneEng Posted February 18, 2015 Members Share Posted February 18, 2015 If you have the MixWiz WZ4, I suspect you have everything you need to sound outstanding. Your FOH speakers are very good, your microphones are very good, and your mixer and efx are very good. Before you get anything else, I would suggest you learn to use what you have and make it sound great. Your equipment is not going to prevent you from obtaining outstanding results. You really do have a great system already. The most effective piece of equipment you have (or any band really) is your voice. Get that part right, work on your channel eq's set well (The MixWiz has a 4 band eq with 2 sweepable mids. It has been my experience that this is more than adequate to get a great sound out of almost anything). Work on understanding the built in efx engines (some plate verb with a bit of delay should do you just fine). Make some recordings and we can give you more advice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members shiftnup Posted February 18, 2015 Author Members Share Posted February 18, 2015 Thanks for all the great advice, much appreciated. And I certainly agree that I could get the best improvement with more practice, which is where I'll leave it for now. Greatly appreciated once again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wesg Posted February 18, 2015 Members Share Posted February 18, 2015 FWIW - when you are finally ready share, you will find that sharing gives you the biggest opportunity to improve. It's hard, I know, but in a forum like this -- we've all been there, and nobody is going to mock you, regardless of your skill set, as long as you present yourself as someone who wants to learn and is willing to listen to advice given. Criticism, even constructive criticism, can hurt like a b---h sometimes, but in the long run, it usually pays off. Wes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members shiftnup Posted February 18, 2015 Author Members Share Posted February 18, 2015 I appreciate the feedback. I'd say the first major hurdle for me there would be actually doing a recording. That's one area I haven't even begun to entertain just yet. One of the guys I jam with records, I think using cakewalk??, but I'm not sure. Only thing I ever recorded with was a cell phone, and I think that was enough to make want to quit before even getting started. So, I decided to never do that again unless I was willing to laugh at the results. I'm sure it's an area I'll eventually get into, but I guess knowing how to even get started would be a whole new thread on it's own. Thanks again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DanCostello Posted February 18, 2015 Members Share Posted February 18, 2015 The vocals in most of the newer and heavier stuff are usually pretty dry in terms of reverb, delay and other "effects." There's a little bit, but not a ton. Most of the processing is going to be eq and tons and tons of compression. Obviously, implementing tons of compression has its own drawbacks, but fortunately, the need for compression can be reduced by perfecting your vocal technique. For the older stuff, you still haven't listed any artists that would require any weird or special equipment (Lenny Kravitz maybe being the most effects-heavy of the list). Any halfway-decent reverb and delay unit should be able to do the job. The trick is learning how to use them properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members shiftnup Posted February 18, 2015 Author Members Share Posted February 18, 2015 Does the lexicon mx 400 have compression? I'm assuming that would help to level some of the peaks?? I know that when singing house of the rising Sun I seem to have some definite spikes on the higher notes, even when pulling back from the Mic. It's been challenging for me to keep the volume constant or close, when transitioning from the deep low register parts to the higher pitch and output sections without clipping on the highs. Once I adjust for that I seem to not have much output on the lows. Is this purely a lack of technique, or would compression help with the higher output spikes?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 19, 2015 Members Share Posted February 19, 2015 Compression is a different TYPE of effect, one that's connected serially on a per channel or per group basis, usually via a channel insert jack. The compression on the multi-fx units is used for (in general) an entirely different purpose as part of pre-conditioning of other effects. I think this would be a good time to start learning about the different types of effects, how and why one approach might be better than another, how effects can affect gain before feedback, what the difference is between serial effects (usually dynamics) and parallel effects (usually time based like reverbs, delays, chorus's) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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