Members shiftnup Posted February 16, 2015 Members Share Posted February 16, 2015 I have started my trip down the professional audio road and I'm looking for good advice on how to make my system better. I have some audio experience in the past with high end car audio of yesteryear, multiple amplifiers, electronic crossovers, etc, but definitely not experienced with live sound and dj gear, other than what I've done over the past year. My current system is only used at home, for now, which is setup in an outside shop/ jamroom. My primary use is for playing recorded music, and pa for a group of friends when we get together and jam. No recording at the moment, but that could change in the future. Current setup is 2) Yamaha DXR 12 mains, 2) JBL PRX718 xlr subs, Allen and heath mixwizard4 16:2 mixer, and a Tascam CD player with iPod doc. I think I've made good selections to this point, and have around 400-800 to spend on my next piece of gear. All cables are mogami gold, and the system sounds good, but know it can be better. I've considered adding a drive rack, not sure which, as my next piece of gear, but felt I should seek experienced opinions before going farther. I do believe the system would benefit from some EQ, and perhaps having the ability to hard adjust some of the crossover points may be beneficial for the mains, subs are set at 80 per JBL, so I don't think I'd get much help there. Basically am I heading in the right direction, or is there something else I should consider first??? Thanks for the help! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members abzurd Posted February 16, 2015 Members Share Posted February 16, 2015 IMO, no need at all for a driverack. The subs/tops setup you have are good and the subs are already set to where they need to be with an appropriate slope. Also, while I'm sure they are good, no need to spend ~$50 on each cable. If you need more cables, consider http://www.audiopile.net . Great quality at a fair price and a great overall value. As for your next piece of gear, yes EQ would be good. If you're sticking with an analog system then just grab some 31 band EQ's. There's plenty of analog stuff being dumped on the market these days as more people move to digital. I'm not advocating moving to digital at all, just saying used EQ's are cheap and I'd probably look there first before buying new. Do you have any monitors? That would be the next place I'd go and would just add to your DXR12 collection so you have redundancy. In fact, when jamming with no audience I'd not even use the top boxes. Just set the DXRs up as monitors. You can still use the main out to the subs and adjust for some extra thump of the kick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WynnD Posted February 16, 2015 Members Share Posted February 16, 2015 DriveRack PA would be a good addition. You get a 31 band EQ, auto-EQ, anti-feedback, limiter. There is a learning curve, but I've been using at least one for at least the last 5 years. You can manage without one, but they make your life easier. (And probably not in ways you think they will.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members shiftnup Posted February 16, 2015 Author Members Share Posted February 16, 2015 Thank you for the feedback. I haven't really considered a monitor, but perhaps I should. Most of what I do when jamming solo is playing recorded music through the CD player and sing, almost karaoke style. I know that sounds gay, but I've spent the last year or so trying to develop as a singer, and singing through a pa has been a significant help, the other stuff is a mix between jamming everything between 80/90's club music to today's pounding double bass metal and the occasional jam session. I like plugging everyone through the mixer and pa when playing live, just seems to provide more control and balanced sound. I do think an eq would be a plus, and think the mains get a little too much mid bass for comfort when pushing the system a bit. Originally had them set at 100hz, bumped them to 120 for longevity concerns. Not sure, but my guess is the slope isn't that aggressive. I guess that's why I considered the driverack, from my understanding it would do both, I believe having crossover slopes up to 48db, and a little frequency tweaking in the low sub frequencies which could enhance the low end when I decide to have a "night at the Roxbury" party for the kids! Wow, I've got issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wesg Posted February 16, 2015 Members Share Posted February 16, 2015 If you need a crossover and EQ, then you should definitely consider picking up a DriveRack. The PX is the cheapest and least functional of the group, but still has the crossover, mains GEQ and sub PEQ, along with a compressor, limiter, and AFS. As for singing along to a CD, I'm not sure why you would associate that with homosexuality. But unless you keep the mains speakers behind yourself, you do need a monitor. Wes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members abzurd Posted February 16, 2015 Members Share Posted February 16, 2015 Set the DXR full range and use the crossover coming out of the subs. This will assure your crossover is properly configured and optimized. The way you are doing it now is using multiple crossover points and possibly slopes and isn't ideal. If you want less mid bass that's what an EQ is for. JBL has designed the subs with a 48 dB crossover for the sub and 24 for the crossover out to the top box. I'm guessing a good compromise as 48 dB slopes are complicated and can have phase issues. I don't pretend to know any more than that. The point being, a good bit of what a Driverack is all about (DSP processing) is already baked into quality powered boxes. Crossovers are optimized between subs and tops as well as within the low and high drivers of the top box, and limiters are built in. IMO, auto EQ is a bit gimmicky. Yes, it can identify nodes, but so can a phone app. Move the mic a foot and it will re-EQ. Put people in the room and the EQ changes. If playing live, venues will often already have people in them and blasting pink noise isn't practical. I'm not anti-drive rack, especially for a passive setup where a crossover and limiter is a critical thing. I just think in your situation it's largely redundant and frankly there's a good chance you'll end up degrading the sound playing around with all the functionality..... and you won't even know it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members shiftnup Posted February 16, 2015 Author Members Share Posted February 16, 2015 A sincere apology to wesg or anyone else for whom I may have offended by my comment of sounding"gay" by singing along to cds. Please forgive my politically incorrect usage of the word. Wasn't meant to be offensive. Perhaps I should have used better judgment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members shiftnup Posted February 16, 2015 Author Members Share Posted February 16, 2015 As for running mains off the subs, I suppose that's certainly doable, but I'm currently running the mains off the left and right from the mixwizard, subs off the mono. My system is setup in stereo.. I like having the ability to quickly adjust the sub volume, so that's been the most effective way to do that so far with what I have purchased so far, unless I'm missing something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wesg Posted February 16, 2015 Members Share Posted February 16, 2015 It is certainly plausible that the PRX718 is not optimally set up for the Yamaha DXRs. I have no idea if it is or not. IIRC the crossover in those is assymetric with the subs getting high passed around 90Hz. If the PRX's internal crossover is not optimal, it's possible that a different crossover could yield marginally better sound with slightly increased SPL. FWIW I'm pretty sure that with a DR you could increase sub volume from the front panel somehow, letting you run the FOH in stereo. I think there are sub/main gain settings in the crossover menu. I could check my DRPX if this becomes a decision issue for you, if you'd like. Wes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members shiftnup Posted February 16, 2015 Author Members Share Posted February 16, 2015 Much appreciate all the recommendations, definitely a few good ideas. So, hopefully this doesn't confuse the issue, and sorry if it does, but the other consideration was to add some type of rack effects for vocals. The mixer has a few built in, but I'm sure there's better available. I do believe the driverack offers some sonic benefits to the system, but can I get a decent effects unit for my budget, lexicon perhaps??? That might leave enough for a decent eq, and skip the driverack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members abzurd Posted February 16, 2015 Members Share Posted February 16, 2015 Use the main outs to the subs and then subs to tops using all the internal crossovers. Balance the volume with the knobs on the back of the powered speaker. There's no reason to complicate things beyond that and that's the proper way to set it up anyway. If money is burning a hole in your pocket for a DR then get one, but IMO, it's just not needed. You have decent quality powered speakers and have already paid for the DSP. Get a 31 band stereo EQ and you're good to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members shiftnup Posted February 16, 2015 Author Members Share Posted February 16, 2015 Thank you, guess that's why I asked, like I said, I know just enough to get in trouble,,,, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members OneEng Posted February 16, 2015 Members Share Posted February 16, 2015 Ya know, sometimes it just gets old agreeing with Abzurd all the time He has it right about the setup though. Run your L/R out into your subs. Your subs (with the cross-over engaged) out to your tops. Run your tops in full range. Adjust the sensitivity on the tops and subs to what makes you happy. It is the best setup you will likely get unless you have more experience and RTA gear to measure your setup with on the DR PX. I also agree with Abzurd on the flakiness of the DR auto-eq. I owned one for over a decade and can tell you that it does some strange things to the FOH sound. Also, if you do the auto-eq with both sets of speakers active, you get a nearly perfect comb in your frequency filters. Kind of cool if you are into the physics of sound, but is very detrimental to actually getting good sound! My advice for upgrading your system.... Remember, the two most important parts of your sound are the input and output devices (microphones and speakers). You own the best subs on the market for anything even remotely resembling this price range IMHO. Your tops are decent, but will likely run out of gas before your excellent subs do. Note, that by running your tops full range as you are now and sending all frequencies to them you are doing two pretty bad things. The first is that you are duplicating frequencies that the subs are putting out. This is going to result in cancellation and phase issues. The second (and more important IMO) is that your tops are going to run out of gas even earlier than they really should. By using the cross-over in the subs, you will at least be keeping the <90Hz frequencies out of your tops and allowing them to get much louder before they start clipping. It should also sound better. If you want even more output and punch than you are able to obtain with your current setup, you could save up some more money and move up to a pair of DSR112's. At this point you would have the rig I use The DSR's are significantly more powerful than their DXR cousins (despite what the specs might say). Of course, if you sold your DXR's and purchased DSR's you might already have enough money to do that with. Change your setup as both myself and Abzurd recommended and see how much output you can get. If you are happy with it, then leave the FOH speakers alone. You already own a setup that is much superior to the majority of bands gigging in most bars. You did a good job with that part! Now for the input. What are you using for microphones? I am personally a big EV ND767a lover since these microphones have such a nice warm sound with really great clarity. Now the big differentiator...... I loved my MixWiz. Good lord knows that thing got used enough to pay for itself 10 times over and never hiccuped even once. As much as I loved my MixWiz, the efx were barely adequate to my ears. If you really want to make your voice sound great, invest in a good outboard efx unit. You can get a used M-OneXL for around $300.00. If you want to spend a bit more money and get a really really really nice sounding verb, the Lexicon PCM91 can be had for under your $800.00 and is about as good a verb as can be purchased. The PCM70 can be had for under $600.00. I have to tell you, I have never seen any karaoke setup as nice as what you are proposing .... and few bands are so well equipped. As for the eq, I never had any issues making the output sound great just by using the PEQ on the MixWiz. For me, having a great vocal efx engine would be the biggest improvement to your .... already very nice system. Depending on what you are using for microphones, perhaps an upgrade there as well. Good luck and let us know what you end up with! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members shiftnup Posted February 17, 2015 Author Members Share Posted February 17, 2015 OneEng, thank you for the tips. I maybe should have better clarified but my mains are currently crossed at 120, not full range. Originally had them set at 100, but when playing some older club music, nine inch nails to be exact, I was having some issues with the12 starting to max out. Switching to 120 for the main crossover point definitely helped, but I believe the subs are at 80, preset from jbl, as you know non adjustable. So, to clarify, I have full signal running to both mains, crossover selected to 120hz on the mains, full signal running to the subs, relying on the jbls internal crossover to clean anything over what they're supposed to reproduce, which I believe is 80hz. That's leaving a little gap there, between 80-120hz, but it hasn't been detrimental, maybe just not ideal. My original interest was to try running a driverack and adjust for a more aggressive slope to the mains crossover, to see if that would help to fill that gap a little better, and have the eq for fine tuning.As is the case with most people out there, I have purchased the system a little at a time. When choosing my mains, I really wanted to go with the dsr, but eventually compromised, and bought the dxr's, and one sub, second sub was the next purchase. The dxr also gave me the ability to run CD music, and Mic, without a mixer, which is how I started. Obviously as time has moved on I've continued to add more equipment, and admittedly if I had purchased everything at once I might have gone to a better main. My jam room is 1200 sq feet, and what I have certainly fills it up, but I have noticed the week spot being the dxr ability to handle the 90-120hz range when pushed hard, particularly more with dance music than rock or metal. Once again, it's certainly not bad, but I'm definitely one who asks, could it be better??? Of course the answer to that is usually, sure, depending on how much more I want to spend. Which for where I am today, I'm starting to say I'm close to what I can justify spending.I haven't tried an EV mic, I currently have an audix om2, which is where I started, a beta58, and E935. Most rock stuff I sound best on the beta, softer songs I switch between the 58& the 935. I definitely think a decent effects processor is in the works, and perhaps for what I'm doing might be the better next step, followed shortly with a decent eq. Thanks again for all the information, much appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members abzurd Posted February 17, 2015 Members Share Posted February 17, 2015 If you decide to add monitors down the road you could move the DXRs to monitor duty and get a pair of PRX712's for mains, which can be had for $650 and would match your subs. Easy to match volumes too as you can set them "the same" to start. If corner loading the subs you'd likely back off a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members shiftnup Posted February 17, 2015 Author Members Share Posted February 17, 2015 Moving the dxrs to monitors would certainly be an option if I get to where I need more output, which today isn't necessary, but perhaps someday??? That being said, I wouldn't think that jbl prx712, would be a significant upgrade over where I'm at now, but to be fair I haven't a/b'd them either. I think if I did decide to upgrade the mains I'd likely budget a bigger step than that. Maybe I'm wrong, but I didn't think the prx mains were significantly better than others in that price range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members abzurd Posted February 17, 2015 Members Share Posted February 17, 2015 Moving the dxrs to monitors would certainly be an option if I get to where I need more output, which today isn't necessary, but perhaps someday??? That being said, I wouldn't think that jbl prx712, would be a significant upgrade over where I'm at now, but to be fair I haven't a/b'd them either. I think if I did decide to upgrade the mains I'd likely budget a bigger step than that. Maybe I'm wrong, but I didn't think the prx mains were significantly better than others in that price range. They probably aren't, but can be had for a pretty good price and match your subs. I currently run that setup (712 over the 718). My RCF mains sound better, but the PRX looks nicer, which is good for our higher end gigs. It's also more of a "rock-n-roll" box with an aggressive mid sound that I have to tame down a bit, but does cut through a loud bar and sounds pretty darn good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members abzurd Posted February 17, 2015 Members Share Posted February 17, 2015 Ya know, sometimes it just gets old agreeing with Abzurd all the time I don't mind. Affirmation is always nice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 17, 2015 Members Share Posted February 17, 2015 I also agree with absurd, use the xovers in the subs, it's going to be plenty good, and much of the static (anechoic) eq is already done for you in both the sub and the top box. If you need an eq, I have plenty of good used eqs available. PM me if interested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members djerickson Posted February 17, 2015 Members Share Posted February 17, 2015 +1 to not running the DXR's full range over your subs. I love the sound, look, weight, and mixer features of the DXR but have been surprised at how quickly the low end maxes out and starts to distort when run full range. (Much sooner than my old Mackie 450's) I always thought a 2 to 1 sub to top ratio was about right with this level of speaker but with the DXR/XLF set up it seems 1 to 1 is about right. I was always planing on getting the DSR's but fell into a deal too good to pass up with the DXR's. I may keep them for monitor use down the road or sell them and grab the DSR's which I should have done in the first place. Through it all the shining star has been my Mackies. They're not the flavor of the month but it's amazing how a ten year old 400 watt box can more than hold it's own with a new 1100 watt unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members OneEng Posted February 17, 2015 Members Share Posted February 17, 2015 OneEng, thank you for the tips. I maybe should have better clarified but my mains are currently crossed at 120, not full range. Originally had them set at 100, but when playing some older club music, nine inch nails to be exact, I was having some issues with the12 starting to max out. Switching to 120 for the main crossover point definitely helped, but I believe the subs are at 80, preset from jbl, as you know non adjustable. So, to clarify, I have full signal running to both mains, crossover selected to 120hz on the mains, full signal running to the subs, relying on the jbls internal crossover to clean anything over what they're supposed to reproduce, which I believe is 80hz. That's leaving a little gap there, between 80-120hz, but it hasn't been detrimental, maybe just not ideal. My original interest was to try running a driverack and adjust for a more aggressive slope to the mains crossover, to see if that would help to fill that gap a little better, and have the eq for fine tuning. As is the case with most people out there, I have purchased the system a little at a time. When choosing my mains, I really wanted to go with the dsr, but eventually compromised, and bought the dxr's, and one sub, second sub was the next purchase. The dxr also gave me the ability to run CD music, and Mic, without a mixer, which is how I started. Obviously as time has moved on I've continued to add more equipment, and admittedly if I had purchased everything at once I might have gone to a better main. My jam room is 1200 sq feet, and what I have certainly fills it up, but I have noticed the week spot being the dxr ability to handle the 90-120hz range when pushed hard, particularly more with dance music than rock or metal. Once again, it's certainly not bad, but I'm definitely one who asks, could it be better??? Of course the answer to that is usually, sure, depending on how much more I want to spend. Which for where I am today, I'm starting to say I'm close to what I can justify spending. I haven't tried an EV mic, I currently have an audix om2, which is where I started, a beta58, and E935. Most rock stuff I sound best on the beta, softer songs I switch between the 58& the 935. I definitely think a decent effects processor is in the works, and perhaps for what I'm doing might be the better next step, followed shortly with a decent eq. Thanks again for all the information, much appreciated. Ahh. Yep, one of my not written suggestions was going to be that an external cross-over might get you a bit more head room on the DXR12's if you raised the x-over up from the 90Hz (I think it is still 90 on the 718XLF). As you point out, the DXR's (and nearly all 12" tops for that matter) will max out the woofer first so getting more LF out of them will get you more over-all volume. For your stated usage, the DXR's should be just fine. I like the sound of the e935. The Beta 58 always felt too bright and brittle to my ears. The ND767a sounds best if you stay close to the grill, but in exchange for this, it rejects feedback better than any mic I have tried except for the OM7 .... but I didn't like the sound of the OM7 as well. As for the efx processor, I'll follow up in your other thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wesg Posted February 17, 2015 Members Share Posted February 17, 2015 FWIW - I don't think anyone is advocated running DR auto EQ in this thread (or this forum, for that matter). I think the point is - if you need GEQ and crossover, then a DR is worth looking for if you can find one for about the same price as a crossover. NOW - if you don't need a crossover (and I can't comment on whether or not his DXRs can benefit from a higher low-pass than the 718XLF provides), then by basic boolean algebra, you don't need a GEQ and crossover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members nchangin Posted February 17, 2015 Members Share Posted February 17, 2015 The mixwiz has great channel EQ, you should be able to EQ out the offending frequency(s) on the channel that is giving you the feedback. (this is if you use your existing efx and wire it like One Eng stated in this or another thread. As others stated proper crossover out of those subs into those tops should really sounds worlds better than running the tops at full range. Have you considered taking your singing to the next level? Hate to say it but you could test your vocals out with real karaoke tracks fed from a laptop and have a screen with the words on it attached to the laptop. Tracks are hit or miss or not even close, but it's the nature of the beast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wesg Posted February 17, 2015 Members Share Posted February 17, 2015 There's lots of decent karaoke tracks on YouTube. I use them to practice singing all the time. When I'm learning a part, I don't always have enough brains left to play and sing at the same time, so I concentrate on one at a time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members shiftnup Posted February 17, 2015 Author Members Share Posted February 17, 2015 Ok, just to clarify, my mains have never been full range, always crossed at either 100 or 120hz, sorry if that wasn't clear through previous posts. Subs cross at either 80 or 90, not sure which, so my mains were originally set at 100, but 120 was needed for certain situations to prevent damaging them when pushed towards what I'd consider max, which is zero gain on mains, cd set just below clipping on mixwizard, the tascam running to two strips, one panned left, the other right, and bringing master out to no greater than 0. That's pretty freaking loud, and at that Point is the only time I've experienced less than optimal performance from the dxrs. That's when they were crossed at 100, moving to 120 fixed that particular issue, but my ears think 100 sounds better at anything below those levels. Anyway, as for karaoke, yes I've done it, and would love to do more, but for a significant amount of the music I sing the you tube options have been marginal, to junk. Definitely not the same quality as CD player, or iPod for that matter. Both of which are played through the tascam player, which also has an iPod doc, pretty cool, and better sound quality than running iPod through a patch cable and into the mixer. Funny thing is, I have an older sony 46" flat screen that I've always felt would look real nice hanging on the wall , between the pa mains. If I ever got or found a way to integrate a good karaoke setup into my pa, I'd be all over it, it's just everything I found so far was a disappointment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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