PA suggestions

[MikeInPhelan]

So, I know there are probably hundreds of this same topic. I am in desperate need of suggestions. My PA rig is a mess( underpowered). I am using a Peavey PVi6500 as a mixer only. Running a line out of that into a Behringer mixer. Out of that I am running a Crown XLS 2500 pushing 2 PV115 speakers. And a Behringer EPQ 2000 pushing 2 Yamaha 500 watt 12 inch speakers. I thought this would be enough power for the garage and small bars. It however is not. any suggestions? Not enough amp for these speakers? Are these speakers not good? Is there anything in my rig worth building on? Or should I start over? Thank You!

[BillESC]

Personally, I'd start over. Do you have a budget in mind?

 

 

[oachs83]

Hey Mike, very recently I had a very similar question and found this site for advice. Here is the link to my thread.

 

http://www.harmonycentral.com/forum/forum/LivePerformanceCategory/acapella-33/31377091-could-really-use-some-advice-on-my-current-pa-rig

 

You are in a bit better shape to start completely over which now I sorta am too. My decision was to start going the route of active speakers. I just bought a set of active mains and will build from there. I learned there is so many ways to go and take as much advice as you can. You will find which route is better for you.

[MikeInPhelan]

Thanks, Oachs83. I will check it out asap. Bill, You think I should scrap everything? I don't want to spend more than about $1500 right now.

[dboomer]

Hey Mike

 

Lots of folks are in the same boat as you. First, I think you have probably hit the limit with your speakers and they are your gating item. I'm assuming that you are a 4-5 piece rock group playing in clubs of 100-150 people. I think a realistic budget for a PA do do that is probably around $8-10k including Mics, cables and cases.

 

Have you read the sticky "what I Run..." At the top of the page? What do other successful groups run in the venues that you wish to play in?

[MikeInPhelan]

That's what I am afraid of. Spending 8k is out of the question. I will look at the sticky, thanks.

[Comoxsam]

Mike,

 

8-10K was totally out of the question for me too.

 

Here's what I did:

 

Mains: New Yamaha DXR12s - $1500

Subs: Used Yorkville LS801p - $800

Mixer: Waiting to buy Behringer XR-18 Digital mixer - $800

Monitors: Using my old passive mains and powering them with my old powered mixer. (Will eventually buy a dedicated amp)

 

[oachs83]

$8k is out of most people's budget at one shot. However you start buying pieces one by one that will work together and over time you will start building a nice system worth around 8-10k. For example I just bought a set of ev elx112p speakers to use as mains. Now those are not my ideal mains but a huge improvement over my Peavey's. I now sound better and will save for a nice expensive set of mains and eventually subs. When that time comes those EV Elx speakers will make very nice monitors. Therefore I am not throwing my money away. Come up with a game plan and think ahead.

[wesg]

Hi, Mike!

 

You're in a tough place. It might be best to try and come up with a plan to "grow" your PA, possibly renting components until you have everything you need. I'm a band guy, not a sound guy, I have been working on buying quality and renting the different for a couple of years now. Getting close to a good system. This forum has been a LOT of help.

 

One thing occurs to me: are you running kick drum or bass guitar through your PA? If you are, then I would recommend purchasing a GOOD powered subwoofer as your very first acquisition. Low frequencies suck up a LOT of power, and if you can take the low frequencies out of your tops, you might actually find that they are suddenly twice as loud!

 

By GOOD powered subwoofer, I mean a JBL PRX618S-XLF (not 618S), Yorkville LS801-P, or equivalent. You also want to get a separate crossover so you can control where the crossover frequency is. In your situation, I would be tempted to run a fairly high crossover point, maybe as high as 120Hz, providing the sub can keep up. A crossover like the dbx 223 should be able to do this. If you can find a dbx DriveRack PX (they were recently discontinued and sold lots of places on "blowout" for under $200), a DriveRack PA, or DriveRack PA+ you can use the DriveRack as a crossover and a get a "free" graphic equalizer along with some other minor goodies out of the deal.

 

Another thing I have noticed, you have two sets of speakers listed. Are you using the 12s as monitors or mains? Are you running two sets of mains? If so -- you might be able to sell one set, invest it better amps, and make the other set louder. I can't make any specific recommendations there, as I mostly deal with powered speakers. I will say that your system CAN handle any sized garage unless you keep airplanes in there. And you should be able to handle bars up to 100 people with what you have -- provided you keep the kick and bass out of the PA.

 

Wes

[RoadRanger]

So, I know there are probably hundreds of this same topic. I am in desperate need of suggestions. My PA rig is a mess( underpowered). I am using a Peavey PVi6500 as a mixer only. Running a line out of that into a Behringer mixer. Out of that I am running a Crown XLS 2500 pushing 2 PV115 speakers. And a Behringer EPQ 2000 pushing 2 Yamaha 500 watt 12 inch speakers. I thought this would be enough power for the garage and small bars. It however is not

It most definitely should be unless you're looking for earbleed SPL. Which particular model of Yamaha speakers do you have?

 

[MikeInPhelan]

Was using the Yamahas as monitors. Those actually belong to the bass player who is moving away soon. So I will be in the market for new monitors. Are my PV115 speakers just way to budget minded to be any good? Is putting 800 watts to them a bad idea? The crown xls2500 is putting out 425 watts. Or should i get rid of them and get some 1000 watt powered speakers?

[dboomer]

You should not use more power than the "program" rating of a speaker, in this case 400w. And then only if the amp can provide limiting beyond that point and a suitable high pass filter.

[dboomer]

Mike,

 

8-10K was totally out of the question for me too.

 

Here's what I did:

 

Mains: New Yamaha DXR12s - $1500

Subs: Used Yorkville LS801p - $800

Mixer: Waiting to buy Behringer XR-18 Digital mixer - $800

Monitors: Using my old passive mains and powering them with my old powered mixer. (Will eventually buy a dedicated amp)

 

You are not really too far outside of that $8-10k estimate by the time you complete that setup

 

So $800 for that mixer ... but you have to add a $400 iPad

A dozen SM57/58's with cables and stands will probably set you back $1200+

4 cheap monitors and amps - $1500

$500 worth of cases so you don't trash your system

[wesg]

IMO, (quality) powered speakers have significant advantages over passives for the "band guy" --

1. You always have enough amp

2. The limiter is always configured correctly to protect the speaker (this is a big deal when buying used IMO)

3. They work like building blocks - need more X? Add a speaker. Don't worry about how to power it, just do it.

4. No single point of amp/speaker failure for multi-speaker systems

5. No additional processing is usually needed to get a good-sounding speaker

6. Frequently include a high-pass filter, obviating the need for a crossover when running subwoofers

7. Easier to spread your load over multiple circuits in case you are playing a bar with marginal power (and window air conditioners. *grumble*)

 

Two quality 12" powered speakers and a quality sub will do just about any bar in my area. Night clubs usually have their own system.

 

Aw man, the spell check is broke again.

 

Wes

[MikeInPhelan]

Ok, think I will dump the Peavey speakers. Looking at powered speakers right now.

[Shaster]

A 200 watt PV115 should be loud enough for the garage or small bar. How many half stack Marshalls do you guys have? Whatever the answer, powered FOH would be a good start. Mixer next. If you are mixing from stage, you might want to see what it's like using digital - personally I hate it. Scrolling through an iPad's menus two bars before my guitar solo, is not my idea of fun. But I'm a geezer, and I've never bought into the "if it's new, it must be better" philosophy, so YMMV.

[Craig Vecchione]

The guy in the other thread who's looking at Kustom would be happy with those PV115's. I suspect you need to turn down a bit so you can actually hear the vocals until you can afford louder gear.

 

Don't buy into the "underpower" misnomer. You don't just keep getting more and more volume from a speaker by throwing more power at it. At a point the speaker will definitely fail, and then you have more problems and bills....

[wesg]

We still haven't found out what he's running through the speaker.

 

If his bass player is trying to go direct, those PV115s are not going to cut it. Especially if he adds kick drum, congas, and synthesizer.

 

Now, vocals only? That's a different story.

[monthlymixcd]

Lots of great advice here... and it sounds like you're taking it, which is a good first step.

 

Here's my $.02: As you map out your path to your new complete system keep your eye on the endgame. Ask yourself, "Does this purchase have a place in the final picture (what you would eventually post as YOUR system in that "What I run..." sticky) and always prioritize purchases to eliminate the weakest links/bottlenecks in your system first. Focus not only on things that will get you sounding great, but also on reducing your work to set it up and run it, to transport it, and always with scalability in mind. You will always need enough PA for the gig, but you don't always need to take your whole system.

 

The depreciation of passive speakers these days is rapid. Resale values for power amps are somewhat better and more stable, but usually only if they are sought after brands/models. Unless your cabs have angles for use as monitors... I'd ditch 'em. Backups are always good to have, so if you can afford to buy new without selling everything off first then consider that... but consider this: most bands rarely transport their backup big passive speakers and heavy amps to the gigs, too... just in case... making them useless as backups if they're sitting at home. Sell while they're still worth something.

 

Do I understand that you're using two mixers to mix your band? Do yourself a HUGE favor and get ONE that can handle your needs. SO many future troubleshooting nightmares avoided by doing that single upgrade. Just make sure to get one with enough monitor mixes on tap. Also, if you can swing something like a StudioLive that has FX onboard you avoid a LOT of outboard gear.

 

Where are you located... Phelan, CA?

[Bobby1Note]

Hey Mike

 

Lots of folks are in the same boat as you. First, I think you have probably hit the limit with your speakers and they are your gating item. I'm assuming that you are a 4-5 piece rock group playing in clubs of 100-150 people. I think a realistic budget for a PA do do that is probably around $8-10k including Mics, cables and cases.

 

Have you read the sticky "what I Run..." At the top of the page? What do other successful groups run in the venues that you wish to play in?

 

I'm with Don on this one. Most people getting into pro-audio, start by looking solely at the main components,,, speakers and a mixer. By the time you've added monitors, a snake (or two), cases, cables, D.I.'s, mic-stands, speaker-stands, mic's, basic LED lighting, light-stands, etc., the cost is quickly approaching, if not surpassing, double the original estimate.(transport not included/trailer).

 

A realistic budget for a respectable bare-bones system,(the mixer, a pair of mains, and a pair of subs), will probably hit the $5k. to $6k. mark. A budget drum-mic kit w/stands and cables, will cost roughly $1k. Basic LED wash-lights, another $1K. Vocal-mic's, stands, cables, speaker-stands, another $1k. A reel-snake and a drop-snake (drums) will add yet another $1k.

 

Add the price of monitors, processors (bare minimum,EQ for FOH and monitors), and you're quickly over the $10.k mark.

[monthlymixcd]

... which is why there is never a shortage of posts like this one. lol

 

Let's be honest, most new bands start out with a mashup of whatever PA gear the band members happen to have lying around. Nobody wants to invest much in a PA for "the band" since the band is new and likely not to stay together very long... probably how each band member ended up with some odd piece of PA gear in their possession in the first place.

 

The band I run sound/lights for has been together for over ten years and only now is their PA approaching what I would call suitable for the frequency and types of gigs that they do. Mostly, all 13 people that get a paycheck from each gig had historically placed said paycheck in their pocket with no mind for the overall sound/presentation of "the band". Only in the last year has everyone come to consensus on giving up some pay to improve the look/sound of "the band", and they just made the Locals Love Us Top 5 of local bands... mere coincidence? I think not...

 

[StratGuy22]

And as Iook and sound better, it can lead to higher paying gigs.

[OneEng]

You are of course correct in the budget estimates for a big boy (for a bar band) system. I also agree that most bands can't or wont afford it.

 

IMHO, you have to start with good tops. The RCF 312a's come to mind. They can be had for about $400.00 each, sound very nice .... especially the mids and highs, and put out a very respectable SPL that actually sounds good. Even though there are better speakers out there, in my book, these are impossible to beat for that price. I prefer my DSR112's, but at more than double the price per speaker .... well .... one would hope so now wouldn't we

 

With the good tops, you are going to be able to get your vocals out on top, and spread the guitars around a little more evenly, but not much more without subs.

 

Unfortunately, there are no really cheep subs that have great output and great sound quality and don't weigh a lot.... so you are going to have to compromise here.

 

If you don't mind lugging them around, the LS801p (a single one) will hang with that pair of RCF's I just recommended. This sub is an absolute beast with respect to output. Nothing else in this price range even comes close. You truly have to hear it to understand. It isn't light (137lbs), and it isn't tiny either, but you can get one used for around $800.00 .... and it will make a world of difference in the sound of your band compared to just a decent pair of tops. They do offer casters on them, so that does make them easier to get around. In all fairness, I used to lug around a pair of folded horn subs that were heavier and much larger than this .... of course I was younger then

 

So that eats up all $1500.00 of your budget plus another $100.00. I would use your existing speakers and amps for monitors.

 

Keep your mixer for now. Use the monitor out for your monitors, and hopefully the main knob will control the un-amplified front "main to external amp" output that you can send to the LS801P. Now, unfortunately, neither the LS801p OR the RCF312a have a built in cross-over. You can setup the LS801p so that it doesn't amplify anything below a frequency, but it won't output only the frequencies above that frequency for the tops to use. The tops would be presented with a full range signal ..... which they aren't going to like once you start pounding on that kick drum. For that, you are going to need a simple cross-over. Something like the DBX223XLV would do nicely and you can pick one up on e-bay for around $60.00 or so.

 

So your setup would be ....

 

mixer out into dbx cross-over (one line). Cross-over low frequency output to LS801p, Cross-over high frequency output to the first RCF312, First RCF 312 into 2nd RCF312a.

 

.... and there you have it. A decent club PA with more than enough output for your gigs. Mic up your kick, vocals, and bass at a minimum, and if you still have channels left, put the guitars in there if you desire. Lots of times, guitars are loud enough without going through the PA. The kick is NEVER loud enough without going through the PA.

 

I know I blew your budget by ~$200.00 after cables and cross-over are included, but I swear to you that you will love love love the sound of this system. It is several steps up in output and quality from your current rig. I can't think of any better way for you to better use your upgrade budget [h=3][/h]

[monthlymixcd]

OneEng just gave you one of, if not the best options for a $1500 improvement to your PA. It's worth mentioning that the RCF ART312A is built into the same cabinet as the ART315A so it therefore has more cabinet volume to play with and can pump out more solid lows that its spec sheet would imply... and I love the LS801P... for DJ work, and for sub arrays for larger venues or concerts. It's just impossible to beat for the money (as OneEng said) for that, but it has a sweet spot for throw (about 20'-30' straight out from the cone) that I swear can induce nausea and loosen bowels with it's thump, but I've seen folks try to use it for smallish bar gigs and it's just too big a footprint on stage and it's more sub than needed for those gigs. But OneEng is spot-on that it'll keep up with those tops... and then some. I'd say at max volume it's output is on par with a pair of PRX618S-Xlfs... and maybe the newer PRX718S-XLFs, too. It wouldn't be a cost savings, but I'd recommend either of those two (sourced used for around $800 as well) instead of the Yorkie for your purpose. But any of the above would be more than sufficient. The Yorkie has wheels so you can roll it to the truck, but then you'd need a buddy to lift it into it... and the JBLs do not have casters, but you can probably lift it by yourself... tradeoffs.

[MikeInPhelan]

Running just vocals through the pa. I too thought that the speakers and amp combo would be loud enough. It just is not. I feel that i must have something wrong with the mixer or eq. I am using a small peavey powered mixer and 1 2 channel behringer eq. I use the eq since i was running a set of 12 in yamahas as monitors and the peavey 15's as mains.