Members abzurd Posted January 25, 2015 Members Share Posted January 25, 2015 I’ll be purposefully vague regarding the venue as the where and when isn’t really all that important, but we recently played a nice place with installed sound. It was out of town. I have no idea how the sound guy got the job, one that he’d only been at for a few weeks, but he was in the deep on end of the pool. The system was an A&H GLD board with the rest of the system at that level as well. So it has nothing to do with the quality of the PA. In 14 years and 700+ shows, this is the worst we’ve ever sounded. 20 minutes to get one of the monitor mixes working Told us to do something about the keyboard players mic, an SM58 that the venue provided, because the signal was “too hot”. To be fair it was running with a vocoder in path, but we told him that we’ve done that for years and it was not the problem. I bypassed to show him. I was trying not to be a know it all and let him do his job, but suggested that he engaged the pad on the channel. He said that wouldn’t help so I played along and asked what the pad did. He told me it took the low end and top end off the signal…. OK so it's going to be one of those nights. By the next set he explained he changed the compression and that made it better. This made no sense as he'd explained it was the input that was hot. To probe a bit I was like, “oh, you had a lot of make up gain on the channel?”..... blank stare. Admitted that he was fooling around with the FOH EQ for the entirety of the show. This is an installed system in a large, climate controlled room with a crowd that stayed constant throughout the night. There should have been little to no EQing needed. He had so much processing using all the bells and whistles of the board that he just screwed up every channel terribly. After the show he told the bass player the position of his hand on the body of the bass was incorrect and essentially said his sound would have been better if he played the instrument properly. The bass player wanted to ring his neck. Often didn’t seem to know where he was as far as what fader bank he was on. One of us would ask for more or less of X and it would be adjusted in someone elses monitor. Or, out of nowhere, volumes would increase or an instrument would disappear from the mix. I knew it sounded like poo but didn’t know how bad until the 3rd set, where I take a song off and can go out front. Just wow! It was a big muddy mess. We were going direct on all instruments. Literally ZERO backline sound and the FOH was just a turd. Some people that came to see us asked me if I thought it sounded OK and said, … wait no cursing here…. um, I said no. So would you say something to the booking agent? I considered emailing, but if I give my 2 cents I don’t really want it memorialized in writing. I don’t want to sound like an ingrate for the gig, but frankly we don’t get much business from them anyway, and I think I’m doing them a solid as the scenario has to be a “rinse and repeat” every weekend. Most bands simply don’t care that much about FOH so if I give my feedback I may be the only one doing so. From A-Z this gig was a disaster. As a validation that the poor showing had nothing to do with us, last night, the very next show after the debacle, we had more comments on how good our sound was than I can remember in one show, including multiple staff members saying we were, by far, the best sounding band they've had. This was with our own PA and no sound guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bigbang Posted January 25, 2015 Members Share Posted January 25, 2015 I would certainly say something regarding the issues. It is not doing the bands or venue any good having him there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members trevcda Posted January 25, 2015 Members Share Posted January 25, 2015 For many years we did the Christmas party for very large real estate firm in the area. Usually at a hotel ball room type room, always with our own gear, always run from stage by yours truly. One year they decided to up the game and hired out a large concert house venue for the party complete with sound and lights. We get there and found out that since we're "local" guys we don't get monitor world and static lights. Fine, we're still on a rather nice house sound system with a tech out front and I don't have run it. We sound check and get a passable monitor mix and go get dressed for the gig. As we start into our first set, a typically quieter dinner set, the house tech starts jumping all over the gains and screwing up the monitor mix in the process. Had I known we weren't getting separate monitor system I'd have brought my own for exactly this reason. Next set we ramp it up and again he's all over the channel gains exacerbating the problem further. Eventually satisfied with what's out front, over the next few hours he's got his nose in Facebook on a laptop or nowhere to be found, occasionally showing to boost a solo that ended four measures ago only to wander off without reducing back to where it should be. It felt completely anemic on stage, but we'll soldier through as he must know what he's doing and it must sound great out front, right? Apparently not. Our purchaser, a friend and musician himself, was asking how come we didn't sound as good as we had in the past, when we ran our own sound. All I could do was point at the sound booth, shrug and invite him up to play a couple of songs with us as he usually did at this party. Half way through the first verse of the first song I'm pretty sure he understood what was going on. Despite his explaining and a letter from me to his superiors, the damage had been done. We never played that party again. I really only tried to fix it with our purchaser but had we booked it through an agency I would have made sure that they knew what was going on not only for our sake, but for the sake of any other band that they booked into the room. I did get no small amount of satisfaction when a friend called inquiring about a FOH tech for a European tour with former A lister and wanted to know what I knew about this same guy. I relayed the above story and while I know he didn't go, I also highly doubt he even got the call. While no doubt your FOH guy was in way over his head in so many ways, I have to say the first time I ran sound for a silent stage was pretty intimidating. While you would think it would be a walk in the park not having any stage noise to deal with, I was amazed at how much I depended on at least some noise coming off the stage! This was a multi-band gig with quick change overs. It took a bit longer to get it set but once it was there, it was really nice working without amps on stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dbMontana Posted January 25, 2015 Members Share Posted January 25, 2015 Tough position be be in absurd. Yea, you don't want to come off as a whiner but you also have to protect your product's image/reputation. Maybe offer sort of a: "Thanks for having us play last .... However, to be honest the performance wasn't up to our normal standards. For whatever reason we seemed to have (a bit of/considerable/major?) trouble getting things worked out with the sound guy that night -- something we've rarely encountered in our n-years of playing together. We're not sure what the issues were but would be very interested in getting things resolved before the next event.... Blah, blah, blah". i.e.. Something more reserved/tactful than "Your idiot sound guy doesn't know an input pad from a compressor and is ruining our reputation". It's likely this won't come as news to the booking agent. Or, you could just write things off and resolve yourselves not to play that venue again. Did it pay well? Or at least well enough to justify trying to resolve the problems so you can play there again? Interesting corollary: Our little town is seeing a mini resurgence in local live-music venues as various establishments want a piece of the action my normal venue has helped create. In response the owner I work for is building a new outside stage/sound system, upgrading the installed inside system, and getting more restrictive as to who runs sound for our events. Competition is good. Keeps everyone honest and moving forward. Time will tell. Best of luck in addressing your recent situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members abzurd Posted January 25, 2015 Author Members Share Posted January 25, 2015 While no doubt your FOH guy was in way over his head in so many ways, I have to say the first time I ran sound for a silent stage was pretty intimidating. While you would think it would be a walk in the park not having any stage noise to deal with, I was amazed at how much I depended on at least some noise coming off the stage! This was a multi-band gig with quick change overs. It took a bit longer to get it set but once it was there, it was really nice working without amps on stage. I'm giving away the venue type, but it was mandatory that their IEM's be used. Also mandatory that their Roland drums with a TD-30 module be used. Problem there was they didn't lock out the module so people had really screwed up the settings. I own a TD-30 as our drum module and took 15 minutes and adjust the pad settings. I also had to tighten the snare head because it was so loose it was unplayable. There was also a tear in the kick drum pad. This kind of tells you the overall lack of attention in general. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members abzurd Posted January 25, 2015 Author Members Share Posted January 25, 2015 Tough position be be in absurd. Yea, you don't want to come off as a whiner but you also have to protect your product's image/reputation. Maybe offer sort of a: "Thanks for having us play last .... However, to be honest the performance wasn't up to our normal standards. For whatever reason we seemed to have (a bit of/considerable/major?) trouble getting things worked out with the sound guy that night -- something we've rarely encountered in our n-years of playing together. We're not sure what the issues were but would be very interested in getting things resolved before the next event.... Blah, blah, blah". i.e.. Something more reserved/tactful than "Your idiot sound guy doesn't know an input pad from a compressor and is ruining our reputation". It's likely this won't come as news to the booking agent. Or, you could just write things off and resolve yourselves not to play that venue again. Did it pay well? Or at least well enough to justify trying to resolve the problems so you can play there again? Interesting corollary: Our little town is seeing a mini resurgence in local live-music venues as various establishments want a piece of the action my normal venue has helped create. In response the owner I work for is building a new outside stage/sound system, upgrading the installed inside system, and getting more restrictive as to who runs sound for our events. Competition is good. Keeps everyone honest and moving forward. Time will tell. Best of luck in addressing your recent situation. I have a decent relationship with the guy that runs the booking agency. We just aren't on their "A list" as far as getting many calls for gigs. As for playing there again, we'd probably just pass. It was such a miserable experience we all agreed better to not play at all than to play with those limitations. It's obviously the culture or they'd hire someone that knew what he was doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members trevcda Posted January 25, 2015 Members Share Posted January 25, 2015 Oh, not faulting you guys at all! Especially if IEMs originated at FOH. Same issue we had there. I'd have factory reset the TD-30 module without even asking, given everything leading up to that. At least you would have started with the module from a known state. I hate it when a gig that should be an easy and fun gig becomes exactly the opposite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted January 25, 2015 Members Share Posted January 25, 2015 Perhaps the agency doesn't know about the issues there? There is no excuse for a house tech not to be an A level player if they expect A level results. These days, unfortunately, technology is exceeding a lot of tech's ability to cope. If you can't get the basics down cold, don't mess with everything else. It seems that everybody feels that they MUST have all the bells and whistles engaged and doing something inorder to be "adequate". I made a very good living as a A level guy by focusing on being 100% sure the basics were nailed each and every night. Bells and whistles were added as necessary, not "just because they were available". Most A level guys really focus on the basics, and understand the details of their trade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted January 25, 2015 CMS Author Share Posted January 25, 2015 If it affects you, your band, your job, etc. then always speak up. If you're on the outside looking in, only offer if asked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Pro Sound Guy Posted January 26, 2015 Members Share Posted January 26, 2015 If the gig is a one off then just move on and dont look back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members abzurd Posted January 26, 2015 Author Members Share Posted January 26, 2015 If the gig is a one off then just move on and don't look back. That's kind of where I am with it. We may be asked back, but it would be a one or two time a year proposition and easy enough to either say no to or speak up then. We don't enjoy those types of shows anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Unalaska Posted January 26, 2015 Members Share Posted January 26, 2015 Let the important people know: that might only be the agent who booked it but he/she needs to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Audiopile Posted January 26, 2015 Members Share Posted January 26, 2015 That's kind of where I am with it. We may be asked back, but it would be a one or two time a year proposition and easy enough to either say no to or speak up then. We don't enjoy those types of shows anyway. If you're asked back, you could ask who's their sound person? If it's the same, then respectfully decline the offer. Chances are if the sound person is that awful, he'll be replaced in relatively short-order... depending. I gotta wonder how he got the job in the first place... maybe he's the manager's nephew or something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members abzurd Posted January 26, 2015 Author Members Share Posted January 26, 2015 If you're asked back, you could ask who's their sound person? If it's the same, then respectfully decline the offer. Chances are if the sound person is that awful, he'll be replaced in relatively short-order... depending. I gotta wonder how he got the job in the first place... maybe he's the manager's nephew or something? My thoughts as well. He's very young and very inexperienced. Nice enough until he can't do his job then doesn't know what to do so blames the talent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dbMontana Posted January 26, 2015 Members Share Posted January 26, 2015 Let the important people know: that might only be the agent who booked it but he/she needs to know. Yea absurd -- this. After responding yesterday I remembered that we too had one fellow at my venue a while back that bands started objecting to working with -- feedback, lousy/too-loud sound, and above all a caustic/toxic attitude. It did make a difference to management when they got wind of this and that fellow has since been convinced to move down the road so to speak. Bottom line is if you care at all about working at this place (which I understand you're ambivalent about anyway) then making management aware of the situation in as professional and non-personal manner as possible is the right thing to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Unalaska Posted January 26, 2015 Members Share Posted January 26, 2015 I wouldn't talk to anyone other than your agent, if you try and go above the tech (food and beverage, or marketing, whatever the dept is) it could come back to bite you later. Your agent is responsible for the bands needs wholly and side stepping them will only cause a strain in the relationship with the inside talent buyer. Say something, be objective about observations but say something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members abzurd Posted January 26, 2015 Author Members Share Posted January 26, 2015 I wouldn't talk to anyone other than your agent' date=' if you try and go above the tech (food and beverage, or marketing, whatever the dept is) it could come back to bite you later. Your agent is responsible for the bands needs wholly and side stepping them will only cause a strain in the relationship with the inside talent buyer. Say something, be objective about observations but say something.[/quote'] Sure, I get that. I'd never talk to the venue. I don't even know anyone at the venue. This agency handles all bookings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DocD3F4U17 Posted January 26, 2015 Members Share Posted January 26, 2015 Anything is better than you trying to sound check yourself, but if the sound guy is obviously a moron, then make blatant suggestions, a lot of the time they like working with bands, (one time I saw a video cant remember where but they tested mic positions around the amp and it seemed that the mic being close to the middle of the speaker and close to the grill worked rather than towrads the edge of the speaker and farther back... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shaster Posted January 27, 2015 Members Share Posted January 27, 2015 Abzurd, you mentioned not wanting to put anything in writing - solid logic. Last year, I played a room that had far too many sound and PA and even manager issues. After the gig, which somehow went okay, I emailed the agent to let him know about the problems, so that the next guys in could avoid, or at least mitigate the pitfalls. To my shock, my agent thanked me and said he had cc'd the email to the GM. Unbelievable! It was very clear from my email that it was for the agent's eyes only, but he still forwarded my comments, in the belief that he was helping the venue. I did do a few more gigs there, but the damage had been done. As to your point of whether to tell on the tech - I'm of two minds. I had a dreadful gig a year ago where the tech was in way over his head, but he knew it and admitted his mistakes, and tried really hard to correct them. I could really feel for him. When the leader wanted to send a damaging letter to the club owner, I convinced them to take a more balanced approach, because IMHO the tech was headed in the right direction. However I do know of a place that suffered badly due to their house tech - sounded very much like your guy. Eventually people started speaking up. After many complaints, the venue switched techs, and it's now a very enjoyable place to play, and I believe the venue's business is better. The audience is by and large deaf, but they aren't stone deaf. Good sound, even if they can't identify it, does make a difference. Maybe you should have just let nature take it's course and allowed the bass player to go at him! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MDMachiavelli Posted January 27, 2015 Members Share Posted January 27, 2015 I guess I am in the minority but I would handle things very different. First I would get a feel from my band and see what they thought. I would let it be a group decision, as it should be. I would more or less get a vote on it and if they voted to take some kind of action then I would do it, if not than I wouldn't. I would never act on behalf of a band that I was a member of without talking it over with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Stingray5 Posted January 27, 2015 Members Share Posted January 27, 2015 Just wondering is this one of the places where you set up over the Bar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members abzurd Posted January 27, 2015 Author Members Share Posted January 27, 2015 I guess I am in the minority but I would handle things very different. First I would get a feel from my band and see what they thought. I would let it be a group decision, as it should be. I would more or less get a vote on it and if they voted to take some kind of action then I would do it, if not than I wouldn't. I would never act on behalf of a band that I was a member of without talking it over with them. I I'm not sure why you think this wasn't the discussed with the band, but it was talked about at length and they have no problem with me speaking up. That said, I run all aspects of the band so this would fall to me anyway. If I felt like saying something I would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MDMachiavelli Posted January 27, 2015 Members Share Posted January 27, 2015 I I'm not sure why you think this wasn't the discussed with the band, but it was talked about at length and they have no problem with me speaking up. That said, I run all aspects of the band so this would fall to me anyway. If I felt like saying something I would. I'm not sure I ever accused you of not speaking with the band before you decided to speak, I was just making a point. You asked in an open forum for opinion and all I did was give you mine. I didn't see it mentioned in any of the responses so I felt that it was on point to mention. That's all. As far as your last sentence, if that is the case why come to an open forum, explicitly ask for an opinion, and then when one is given respond in a "pissy" manner. There was nothing in my posts but an honest opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted January 27, 2015 CMS Author Share Posted January 27, 2015 So it was a misunderstanding. Let's leave it at that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MDMachiavelli Posted January 27, 2015 Members Share Posted January 27, 2015 So it was a misunderstanding. Let's leave it at that. Thank you for the moderation Craig, I really appreciate it. I just want to say neither of my post were malicious but just honest, genuine respones. Again I welcome your moderation and hope to see more of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.