Members oachs83 Posted January 20, 2015 Members Share Posted January 20, 2015 Hey guys so I started a new thread from my "Could use some advice on a PA" thread as we kind of ran into a new problem over the weekend. First thanks so much from everyone as I learned a bunch just this past week and really is going to point our band in the right direction as far as PA sound goes. So in the past thread I was trying to find the right external amp to run my PA system. Through out the thread a few recommended going to an active setup for at the time financial and current setup didn't make much sense for us. Well it seems we blew out one of the mains over the weekend and since those mains have seen better days it probably a good idea for replacements. Now just maybe an active set of mains might make more sense to buy since I need a set of mains anyways. Remember I have not bought a external amp yet to run my system so I would save the need to do that. To get to my topic question I have been doing what I can in research and it appears many are starting to go the way of 12" speakers instead of 15". I wonder is this more of a DJ thing or does this go well for live rock music like I do? It seems in past passive 15" mains were everywhere but has the technology started to phase out the 15"? We play bars/clubs in front of an average of 50 - 75 people or so but the capacity of some of the rooms are roughly 200 plus (One of our regular places is over 400 capacity). There is a couple smaller bars that I would say capacity is about 150 but we also do a couple outdoor gigs in the street that tend to bring more people. With todays 12" active speakers and 18" passive subs below (which would be my setup) can I easily get away with it in a live rock band situation? Or should I stick to staying with 15" main 18" sub combo? Now I still have a budget and do have a couple questions. First as stated in my previous thread I have a powered mixer. Can I use active mains with a powered mixer? Next is my budget, I want to get a pair of active mains for around $1K whether new or used. A few speakers I may be interested in buying are Yamaha DBR and DXR series or the Electro-Voice ZLX or ELX series. The question is 12" or 15" for my type of use and are the brands/models consider a good buy and pros and cons? Thanks again for the help guys. Otherwise if worse comes to worse try to find a set of passive mains again to get me by, I only have a couple weeks until we play again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members abzurd Posted January 20, 2015 Members Share Posted January 20, 2015 There really isn't a phasing out of anything. The 12" when paired with subs has been a recommended combination for at least the last 15 years I've been hanging around here. The compression drivers of a manufacturers "same line" 12 and 15 boxes are usually exactly the same. The 12" speaker provides the benefits of a smaller box, near same SPL, and increased intelligibility as the surface area is smaller and more easily controlled. The only real downside is when using as a standalone box (no subs). Then you may want the additional little "oomph" the larger woofer affords. You cannot use an "amped" signal with powered speakers, but if you have a line level output you can use that to power them. Depending on your mixer, you can use the internal amp to power a monitor mix. As for speakers in the $1,000 a pair space, at $900 for the pair, the RCF 312A is the best you'll get. They remain a value in what's becoming a crowded segment. The Yamaha DXR may be better, and certainly has more bells and whistles, but will over your $1,000 budget by around $200. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members soulx Posted January 20, 2015 Members Share Posted January 20, 2015 I think it's not so much new technology making them out of vogue as new marketing. For years, many 15" cabinets, especially cheaper dual models, were sold on the grounds that they looked loud. Large drivers were perceived as bellwethers for big, ballsy performance. But the performance did not always necessarily match the look: one large cabinet comes to mind that was among the best selling bar/club boxes for over a decade, and it is just the most shrill, screeching thing you could imagine. Today, the easiest sell is a cabinet that is lightweight -- even if it may take an awkward setup (or whatever) to achieve decent performance. I often see that with some of the short vertical "arrays" that are being used in situations where a conventional array could be thrown up in half the time and achieve great coverage. All that said, There's now just a wealth of processed options that will likely have you sounding better than ever, and If you are always putting them over subs, a smaller box with less low-frequency extension seems like a no-brainer choice. Why carry around a larger top box and speaker, when you are just going to be processing out the frequencies that extra box volume was designed for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted January 21, 2015 CMS Author Share Posted January 21, 2015 Yamaha DXR and DBREV ZLX powered I really like the EV's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members oachs83 Posted January 21, 2015 Author Members Share Posted January 21, 2015 Is there a big enough difference between the ZLX and ELX to justify the $200 difference per speaker? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Comoxsam Posted January 21, 2015 Members Share Posted January 21, 2015 Wow oachs83, I was under the impression from your other thread that your PA system was all recently purchased new. Sucks to hear you blew a speaker already if that is the case. Were they the Peavey PR15s? I recently purchased a pair of Yamaha DXR12s and although I haven't even had the chance to put them in action yet I can vouch for their great sound and high volume. I researched a lot before buying and also asked about the 12's vs 15's thing. Some comments that resonated with me were: - "12's help vocals sound sweeter" - "12's sound better when using subs to compliment them" - "15's work (a little) better if you don't use subs." But then... - "Trying to mic a kick drum thru 15's without a sub is kind of pointless. It's all thwack and no thump." - "You should always aim for a full range sound therefore subs are a must." So if all that is true, 12's with subs are what you should be using all the time regardless of the size of the gig. If its a small gig use only one sub, a smaller sub, or just turn it down. I've read lots of bands making comments that you don't "need" subs for smaller gigs. Well if that is true in those situations 12's will most likely be all you need anyway. I've done the no subs and mic the kick drum thru 15's and it is kind of weak. The added low end punch a 15 provides would probably work better for mobile DJs who don't want/need to bring a sub or bands that don't want the type of sound with a sub thumping away. For a rock band though, that wants to get people dancing I think subs are a must and therefore 12's are the way to go. I was a little concerned too thinking that 12's might not cut it volume wise but after testing out my DXRs I have a hard time believing I will ever need more. If I do I will probably just rent more/bigger speakers for that occasion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Drummer44 Posted January 21, 2015 Members Share Posted January 21, 2015 Now I still have a budget and do have a couple questions. First as stated in my previous thread I have a powered mixer. Can I use active mains with a powered mixer? . Probably easy. It would likely be from an Aux Out (or something like that) to your powered tops. Not one of your Main Out amplified signal options; continue to use those to drive your passive subs and monitors. -D44 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted January 21, 2015 CMS Author Share Posted January 21, 2015 Is there a big enough difference between the ZLX and ELX to justify the $200 difference per speaker? This is sortof "if you have to ask, then go with the ZLX", but keep in mind that there's no ZLX powered sub...EV recommends the ELX 118P sub and I agree, as they pair up perfectly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted January 21, 2015 CMS Author Share Posted January 21, 2015 Probably easy. It would likely be from an Aux Out (or something like that) to your powered tops. Not one of your Main Out amplified signal options; continue to use those to drive your passive subs and monitors. -D44 For his particular mixer, the ST OUT or MONO out jacks are the main mix outputs. From there to either a crossover, or if it's a powered rig with either the sub of a main having a crossover, then to whichever speaker set has the crossover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members oachs83 Posted January 21, 2015 Author Members Share Posted January 21, 2015 I could get a hold of a pair of elx12p for $800 used but they are not local. I will be using my passive subs probably another year or so until I can purchase a pair of powered ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members oachs83 Posted January 21, 2015 Author Members Share Posted January 21, 2015 Correction, Elx15p for $800 Elx112p for $675 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JV90 Posted January 21, 2015 Members Share Posted January 21, 2015 My dealer is offering me the Ev Zlx active version in 15", and they are giving me a good price over here too $569 a piece, (in the US is on 499), I had the opportunity to listen to them, they sound fine for my use, they are lightweight compared to my actual rig (Beta 3 TS300A, which is a 12" active speaker), however, I'm just afraid that this speakers won't sound like my previous one, I don't know, been with a 15" speaker instead of the 12 " that I regularly use, I heard them and I like the quality of it, but on the demo that they gave me yesterday, I didn't feel the bass, it was to muddy, maybe it was the eq calibration, but I'm really afraid to sell my previous speakers which are heavy compared to this one and they have proved that they sound even without a sub, This is the link to my actual powered speaker: http://www.elderaudio.com/products/MultifunctionSpeaker/TSSeries/TS300a.html Craig? Could you tell me why do you prefer the Ev's instead of the yamaha ones? My dealer was very sincere telling me that this line is the basic and cheapest one from ev, however I understand that they would work in corporate events that I'm doing, but also I do band gigs on hotels and bars, I really was looking to increase my lighting equipment, but when I saw the Ev's the buying bug came too, my actual rig have around 6 years working well but the main problem is the weight on it, the dealer don't have the 12" active version and be doesn't know if they would import that model too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted January 21, 2015 CMS Author Share Posted January 21, 2015 My dealer is offering me the Ev Zlx active version in 15", and they are giving me a good price over here too $569 a piece, (in the US is on 499), I had the opportunity to listen to them, they sound fine for my use, they are lightweight compared to my actual rig (Beta 3 TS300A, which is a 12" active speaker), however, I'm just afraid that this speakers won't sound like my previous one, I don't know, been with a 15" speaker instead of the 12 " that I regularly use, I heard them and I like the quality of it, but on the demo that they gave me yesterday, I didn't feel the bass, it was to muddy, maybe it was the eq calibration, but I'm really afraid to sell my previous speakers which are heavy compared to this one and they have proved that they sound even without a sub, This is the link to my actual powered speaker: http://www.elderaudio.com/products/MultifunctionSpeaker/TSSeries/TS300a.html Craig? Could you tell me why do you prefer the Ev's instead of the yamaha ones? My dealer was very sincere telling me that this line is the basic and cheapest one from ev, however I understand that they would work in corporate events that I'm doing, but also I do band gigs on hotels and bars, I really was looking to increase my lighting equipment, but when I saw the Ev's the buying bug came too, my actual rig have around 6 years working well but the main problem is the weight on it, the dealer don't have the 12" active version and be doesn't know if they would import that model too The EV's have that EV sound, which is smooth mid-highs and highs that don't get harsh. They also have somewhat better control flexibility...look at the panels and their functions closely before you make a decision. Other than that, the two brands are very competitively positioned. I'm not familiar with your present speakers so I can't compare low end response. I don't usually expect much LF from 12 and 15" speakers in the budget ranges. I found both the Yamaha and the EV to be adequate for solo use, but I didn't "feel" any bass response from either of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JV90 Posted January 21, 2015 Members Share Posted January 21, 2015 Thanks for your valuable input Craig, that's what I heard yesterday, great mid highs and highs, but not to much bass; so, we'll know that this are the basic line of the ev powered speaker, could you see if they would work for Foh in 1 pair at each side? With our without sub? What are your thoughts on it? It would be worth the change? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sants Posted January 21, 2015 Members Share Posted January 21, 2015 I don't think so. I was recently torn between the qsc kw152 and kw122. I was able to compare the two and kept the 152 with the 15. the 12 had slightly more mids but the 15 sounded smoother overall. I think it really depends on the speaker. While size is important, sound quality is even more important. I compared with and without subs and still preferred the 15 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted January 21, 2015 CMS Author Share Posted January 21, 2015 Thanks for your valuable input Craig' date=' that's what I heard yesterday, great mid highs and highs, but not to much bass; so, we'll know that this are the basic line of the ev powered speaker, could you see if they would work for Foh in 1 pair at each side? With our without sub? What are your thoughts on it? It would be worth the change? [/quote'] I definitely can't comment on whether it would be a worthwhile change, because I haven't heard your present speakers. I'd say that if the weight issue is becoming a problem, and the speakers sounded at least as good and hopefully better than what you have, it's certainly worth consideration. Our backs don't improve with age...I can say this as a 53 year old guy. I would use them with a sub if at all possible, and I'd still opt for the 12's for size and weight even if used alone. I don't think any solo fullrange speaker in this price range will replace having a sub, and it's better to go with the band's backline if no sub will fit the stage. Hopefully small stage means small room, and there's no issue carrying bass guitar and keys with backline. The kick always suffers without a sub, but it's not the end of the world. At any rate, none of these comments are about these speakers in particular...it applies to almost all small portable system single-12" and 15" rigs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted January 21, 2015 CMS Author Share Posted January 21, 2015 I don't think so. I was recently torn between the qsc kw152 and kw122. I was able to compare the two and kept the 152 with the 15. the 12 had slightly more mids but the 15 sounded smoother overall. I think it really depends on the speaker. While size is important, sound quality is even more important. I compared with and without subs and still preferred the 15 Agree completely, while many of these product lines share components, you still need to listen carefully to the particular speakers before deciding. Some combinations of LF driver, processing and HF driver/horn work better than others sharing most of the components. The differences may not be huge, but if it matters, then it's worth the time to demo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members StratGuy22 Posted January 21, 2015 Members Share Posted January 21, 2015 You can use your current mixer as I had described. Take the line out to the crossover. From there, one line would go to a power amp for your passive subs (choose an amp that matches the sub so you have one sub on each channel) the other lines will go to the powered tops, instead of returning to the powered mixer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members monthlymixcd Posted January 21, 2015 Members Share Posted January 21, 2015 The quality and crossover point of the crossover in most 2-way cabinets can really dictate how well vocals/horns/etc. will sound, especially at higher volumes. If I had it to do again I would have held out for a good deal on a pair of JBL 635s or even just 612s to use with my XLFs... rather than the 615s that I found a good deal on used. The dedicated midrange woofer would have helped our vocals/horns band sound much better... OR the 612s would have been much lighter to throw up on poles over the subs... either would have been preferrable. Don't get me wrong, the 615s over XLFs combo is head and shoulders above the Peavey/Yamaha SP5xt/Subcompact mashup that the band was using prior to my arrival, but just sayin'... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members oachs83 Posted January 21, 2015 Author Members Share Posted January 21, 2015 I took the plunge, I went with a used pair of EV ELX112P. Got them for $630 they are 2013 models. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JV90 Posted January 21, 2015 Members Share Posted January 21, 2015 The correct rms response on the Zlx series is 250 watts according their manual, not the 1000 watts like they mentioned Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted January 21, 2015 CMS Author Share Posted January 21, 2015 I took the plunge' date=' I went with a used pair of EV ELX112P. Got them for $630 they are 2013 models.[/quote'] Good luck, they should sound great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members monthlymixcd Posted January 22, 2015 Members Share Posted January 22, 2015 Yeah, even though the ZLX series is a lower-power offering from EV... as Craig said, it still sounds like an EV. If nothing else, as your system grows they can move over to monitor duty without missing a step. I'm currently running PRX600 series stuff, but I told myself that if EV ever put out a high-powered ZXA speaker in 10"/12", I'd be first in line to get some... on my list of things to do is to get up to Guitar Center and give the ETX line a listen. I'm also really curious to see how the ETX35P stacks up against the PRX735. (Crossover frequencies 700/2.9K and 480/2K, respectively.) Anyway... great purchase. I hope you're really happy with those speakers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members oachs83 Posted January 22, 2015 Author Members Share Posted January 22, 2015 Thanks guys, for the price it was really hard to pass up. I thought I would have more time to experiment and personally test stuff out but then our cheaper Peavey main blew. We needed something within a week and with this price and with good reviews had to pull the trigger. When we get to a point ever were we want to upgrade or go a different direction they will be excellent monitors so I feel I am not throwing my money away or wasting time. I really wanted to give the Yamaha DXR or DSR a go but for the price I needed to listen to them first. After all the research and reviews I did the past few days between midrange priced EV, QSC, Yamaha, or JBL a person really can't go wrong. It seems everyone can agree they are all great products. Just when asked which are better from the other it seemed to come down to personal preference and minor differences. In other words there was not a huge difference or glaring hole in either brands it seemed like. No matter what this is going to be a MAJOR step up from our 15" Peavey mains and I have a feeling will shock all of us. Thanks again for all the help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Pro Sound Guy Posted January 23, 2015 Members Share Posted January 23, 2015 The 15" two way will give you lower frequency extension by itself. If your in a rock band a good solid midbass is just as important as a subwoofer. What really is important is a box that will give you a minimum of 128db peak output and preferably over 130db peak output for a rock band. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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