Members Drummer44 Posted December 10, 2014 Members Share Posted December 10, 2014 When I'm on the drum kit, I use a Sennheiser wireless condenser head mic; works great. But recently I've been doing more noodling on guitar again, with a wired mic on a stand, tablet nearby with charts, etc. I've pretty much forgotten most of the lyrics from 50 years ago... and there are also those pesky new songs I never knew before, anyway... so I'm at the mercy of the tablet for a while, also glancing down at frets, etc. Which in turn means I'm not always focused properly on the mic. One of our guys supplied our jam room with several Carvin M68s, but I'm thinking I could maybe do better. I can sing in two different forms, one I'll call belting out Johnny Cash/Hank Williams/Waylon Jennings in my lower range, the other softer like Gerry Marsden/Peter & Gordon/Chad & Jeremy/Byrds in my higher range... (for anybody who remembers names like those)... depending on the song and especially the key. Sometimes lead, sometimes backing harmonies. I've gone back through most of the "pick the best dynamic mic" threads here, and it seems like SM58s, e835s, N/D767s are consistently recommended. But most of those seem to be about lead vocalists/frontmen who can concentrate on the mic... I'll want to actually audition several, perhaps including those above, but thought best to ask first about what features would be best suited for what I'm after. Pattern (cardioid? supercardioid? other?), off-axis capability, required proximity, feedback rejection and so forth. I don't like to eat mics in the first place, and that whole "glance at the tablet" (or guitar neck) thing is likely an issue. School me on what features I'm after for this kind of situation? And which dynamic mics in the $100-150-ish range I should audition? -D44 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Crownman Posted December 10, 2014 Members Share Posted December 10, 2014 How loud of an environment do you want to use this in? There are mics that work great off axis and aren't as sensitive as far as proximity goes, but in a loud environment they can wreak havoc by picking up everything in the room. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Drummer44 Posted December 11, 2014 Author Members Share Posted December 11, 2014 Our room is semi-well controlled, plus everything except acoustic drums go through the PA and I have control of that. We don't even use an equivalent of "FOH" speakers, just full-range "monitors" i.e., facing back toward the musicians. -D44 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ptkbass Posted December 12, 2014 Members Share Posted December 12, 2014 My thoughts as a player: Stick with the headset mic for now. Early in this process, mic technique isn't as important as getting through the song cleanly. You're looking at your charts, your guitar neck, your bandmates. The headset gives you one less thing to think about for now. (Recommend reading Keith Code's "Twist of the Wrist". It's about going fast on a motorcycle, but the general idea translates....) For now, that is. After you get the hang of it, then yes, a standard mic probably will serve you better. I prefer regular cardioid, not super or hyper cardioid for my solo thing since, yes, I also still need to look at charts and the audience and the guitar neck. Stage volume bleed doesn't sound like a big deal with your setup, so cardioid is sufficient. Lots of competent mics out there. I like my SM86 a whole lot. It's got the articulation of your condenser headset, and since it's in the Shure SM series, it's pretty durable. New is $180, I think? I got mine used on eBay for under $80. Feedback is a non-issue even though my FOH speakers are behind me on a stick and also function as my monitors. No regrets on that purchase. Granted, there are many others that I (and you) would be just as happy with. This ain't the '70's anymore, so they're all pretty good. Most people recommend trying before you buy. That's probably true, but I never know what I think about a piece of gear until after i've owned and used if for three months. Enjoy your new directionRock on. Paul K Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Crownman Posted December 12, 2014 Members Share Posted December 12, 2014 I would agree with the above. For the time being wear your headset mic. Personally, if I had a good headset wireless I'd use it all the time. If it sounds good and works well there's really no reason to buy another mic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Drummer44 Posted December 13, 2014 Author Members Share Posted December 13, 2014 Thanks. I agree the wireless headmic is a good way to go. I forgot to mention that when I'm on guitar I've repurposed my wireless transmitter, using it instead with the guitar... to gain freedom of movement unrelated to the mic itself. That's not cast in concrete; I can connect the guitar with a wire... but wireless flexibility is useful there, too. But I don't think I can (or want to) afford a second transmitter/receiver just now. I just reviewed the SM86; looks good on paper. It's a bit on the pricey side (list), and I don't know that I need another condenser mic for this application, but I'll check it out further. I appreciate the comment about cardioid pattern being sufficient; in fact after reviewing nominal polarity diagrams, it looks to me like cardioid for this application would have some advantages over super- or hyper-cardioid patterns. Yes? FWIW, contemporary (i.e., when I bought it) Sennheiser documentation associated with my ME3 headmic specs it as super-cardioid, but I don't pick up any drum noise with it and I would have expected that kind of pattern to do so. (Bought it before I learned how to spell polarity.) More current Sennheiser documentation specs the same mic as cardioid -- which would agree more favorably with what I'm experiencing. Not sure I can tell what I've really got. But it works, so... More ideas on decent mid-range ($$) dynamic mics? -D44 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ptkbass Posted December 14, 2014 Members Share Posted December 14, 2014 it looks to me like cardioid for this application would have some advantages over super- or hyper-cardioid patterns. Yes? FWIW, contemporary (i.e., when I bought it) Sennheiser documentation associated with my ME3 headmic specs it as super-cardioid, but I don't pick up any drum noise with it and I would have expected that kind of pattern to do so. (Bought it before I learned how to spell polarity.) More current Sennheiser documentation specs the same mic as cardioid -- which would agree more favorably with what I'm experiencing. Not sure I can tell what I've really got. But it works, so... More ideas on decent mid-range ($$) dynamic mics? -D44 You don't pick up much drum noise with the headset because it is a super-cardioid. And since it's attached to your head, you will never be off axis. With a more directional mic your vocals drop off quicker as you move away from the primary position; that's a liability when you're reading charts, etc. Bleed from other sources is less of an issue with the new project since you're not behind a drum kit and stage dB level is much lower. So cardioid is a better tool for this application. Before I bought the SM86 I was also looking at the Sennheiser 935. But IIR, it's in the same price range as the Shure. There's a thread somewhere back about 6 or 8 months with forum members' advice on that "shootout". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Drummer44 Posted December 15, 2014 Author Members Share Posted December 15, 2014 I notice one of the current retail catalogs also specs the current ME3 as super-cardioid, too, even though Sennheiser's more recent docs on line say cardioid. In any case, I get what you're saying, and that helps. Interesting you mention the e935; saw it in that same catalog, hadn't thought about that one before... and didn't remember seeing much mention of that in the previous searches I've done here. I'll check it out, too, but you're right, looks like retail price is similar to the SM86. Still, having a decent short list when I wander up to a GC or wherever will be good. Essentially I'm hoping to end up with a mic that doesn't add any (or too much) appreciable or significant color no matter whether I'm in lower/harsher Eric Burdon mode or higher/softer Paul Simon mode. -D44 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TimmyP Posted December 27, 2014 Members Share Posted December 27, 2014 If you are on a common monitor mix with the other folks, use what they are using, so yours will have the same feedback frequencies as theirs. If you are on your own mix or on IEMs, pick what sounds good on you, so long as it does not pick up everything in the room (as do the VX10, KMS105, AE5400, PR20/PR22). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Drummer44 Posted December 27, 2014 Author Members Share Posted December 27, 2014 Thanks, looks like cardioid will be the right choice. Homing in on the e935, but still need to some some better auditioning before deciding... -D44 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted December 27, 2014 Members Share Posted December 27, 2014 I would not recommend the ND767 for your application as it is VERY technique dependent. Similar for many super or hyper cardioid mics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Drummer44 Posted December 28, 2014 Author Members Share Posted December 28, 2014 Thanks, AH, that helps, too! -D44 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wesg Posted December 28, 2014 Members Share Posted December 28, 2014 If you don't own an SM58, it might not be a bad idea to get one, even if it doesn't wind up being your go-to mic. It's a good mic to be familiar with. As an amateur in the live sound world, I find it easier and faster to set up when everybody is using the same mic, even when there are multiple monitor mixes. My band went from four completely different vocal mics (AKG D3700(?), SM58, Beta58, e945) to two SM58s, a Beta 58 and an SM57. I have thought about replacing the Beta 58 with an SM58 for consistency, but my (keys player) monitor is at about 80 degrees (mark 60) and I worry about rejection. The Beta 58 works really well. I should get the drummer on an SM58, not sure why he chose the 57; he has 58s. Anyhow. That change made a big difference in how easy it was to EQ out feedback nodes in the practice room. In particular, having both guys on the same monitor mix with SM58s helped a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Drummer44 Posted December 28, 2014 Author Members Share Posted December 28, 2014 If you don't own an SM58' date=' it might not be a bad idea to get one, even if it doesn't wind up being your go-to mic.[/quote'] Yeah, I'm thinking that might be viable, too, and it's on my list for further auditioning. Thanks. In my mind, I'm focusing on two slightly separate but related issues: one is a mic for me, my voice, my technique... and the other is about having useful mics here to choose from, given that one any given session we have little advance clue about who might show up, and with what (if any) vocals equipment of their own. -Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wesg Posted December 28, 2014 Members Share Posted December 28, 2014 That second paragraph clinches the deal for me -- I would never hesitate to hand a guest vocalist a 58, because pretty much everybody has lots of experience with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members FormerlyBassred Posted December 29, 2014 Members Share Posted December 29, 2014 For singing into a mic on a stand while playing, a 58 is always great, but I've found that the Sennheiser 835 is a bit more forgiving when you move your head around or face in different directions (but still towards the capsule). But yeah, you can't go wrong with an SM58. Just remember that just because it is accepted as a 'standard' that doesn't mean it is 'perfect' - go out and try a bunch of mics, something might surprise you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Drummer44 Posted December 29, 2014 Author Members Share Posted December 29, 2014 Yep, trying to find time to get out to more places to do some comparisons... Pesky holidaze... -D44 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Drummer44 Posted January 9, 2015 Author Members Share Posted January 9, 2015 Went with the Sennheiser e935. Never did get a chance to do a proper A/B on various mics; had to check each individually, and then just hope my hear-memory would help discern. In all cases, my impression is that the e935 is hotter, gives me a bit more space, doesn't overly-brighten my voice, and I don't have to eat the thing to make it work. In fact, it's reasonably forgiving about all the "glance down at the frets" stuff. My low end seems fuller, possibly from greater proximity effect. I think the e835s sounded next best, although I think I had to get closer to it. SM58s sounded good, too. Ditto; latter didn't seem as hot. Also seemed to add a bit more brightness... but could have worked.. -D44 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MDMachiavelli Posted January 9, 2015 Members Share Posted January 9, 2015 Its hard to go wrong with the e935 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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