Phil O'Keefe Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 Hey everyone... an old friend of mine is working on a low-cost GPS unit for touring bands to help them protect their trailers and gear. He has a brief four question survey he's trying to get more people to take and I told him I'd see if we could get some input from the community members here at Harmony Central. All bands and musicians are welcome to respond, so feel free to share this with your friends too if you'd like. The plan is for them to set up IndieGoGo campaigns for each band that wants one so that the bands can get them at zero cost. It sounds like a cool idea to me, and I thought some of you might be interested as well. Here's a link to the survey: https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/N773Z5X Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wesg Posted November 26, 2014 Members Share Posted November 26, 2014 Before taking the survey, I'll comment: I usually find insurance to be a better value than advanced anti-theft methods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted November 26, 2014 Author Share Posted November 26, 2014 I agree with you that insurance is essential, but filing a claim can also take a while. For a band in the middle of a booked tour, they can't really afford to wait to get their gear replaced via insurance. If the police can get their gear back via GPS in a day or so, they might miss only a show or two instead of the rest of the tour... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted November 26, 2014 Members Share Posted November 26, 2014 Sounds like a good idea. But this kind of service has been available for quite a while. What would make this different? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Screaming Stone Posted November 26, 2014 Members Share Posted November 26, 2014 Thanks for posting Phil. The problem with insurance, as Phil pointed out, is it doesn't get your gear back. That's a big problem for touring bands, and if you have a personal attachment to the instruments. When Portugal.The Man's trailer was stolen from the Lollapalooza secured parking area, it was found a few days later, already emptied of all of the gear. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/08/lollapalooza-crime-portug_n_921651.html Even systems like Lo-Jack have their problems because they don't warn you if someone is stealing your trailer, it only helps locate once you realize it's gone which may be too late. The Expanders found this out - their van with Lo-Jack and trailer were stolen. Took 26 hours to recover after which all the gear was taken. http://www.gofundme.com/theexpanders But what kills me the most, is knowing that these trailers are filled with gear that took years to collect and can't just be replaced with new instruments. I've toured, I know how tight the budget is, which is why I'm doing this - trying to get GPS units to bands for free. Take the survey and let me know what you think. https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/N773Z5X Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted November 26, 2014 CMS Author Share Posted November 26, 2014 What do the local police use to find a stolen trailer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted November 26, 2014 Members Share Posted November 26, 2014 Is there a GPS transmitter located in each piece of gear? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted November 27, 2014 Members Share Posted November 27, 2014 What do the local police use to find a stolen trailer? Bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Kalina2 Posted November 27, 2014 Members Share Posted November 27, 2014 it is amazing ....I did not think that in the US stealing equipment from artists ..... In Russia, it is rare (but still such cases happen) ...however, experienced thieves use silencers GPS, you can easily buy in China Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted November 27, 2014 CMS Author Share Posted November 27, 2014 Bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha! Yeah, taken out of context that did look pretty funny, huh? As someone related to various family and in-laws who are/were LEO's, I'm all too aware of how the system works....slowly, very slowly. Considering the huge effort that was required to bet LoJack deployed around the country, I'm very curious to know what methods this GPS system would employ and how it could possibly be faster than LoJack. To be specific, let's say I drove my rig up to Alllentown Fairgrounds for a festival show, and before load-in my truck, trailer and gear are stolen. The implied message I'm getting is that the GPS detects my gear moving at a time it's not supposed to be (which also implies that I have to remember to "tell" it that the gear is supposed to be stationary) and alerts me via text to my phone (my assumption). Okay, the clock is ticking, I call 911 and explain my situation. What next? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members trevcda Posted November 27, 2014 Members Share Posted November 27, 2014 If it works like the fleet trackers I put on to several company vehicles, you would log into a webpage and it would locate each tracker. It required a monthly subscription to access. I'm not sure if that info gets the authorities interested in your problem any faster, but you at least know where it's at and where it's headed. It could probably even tell you where it's been and how fast it going away from where it should be! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Screaming Stone Posted November 27, 2014 Members Share Posted November 27, 2014 Thanks for the feedback. Sounds like a good idea. But this kind of service has been available for quite a while. What would make this different?We're developing a low-cost platform specifically for the music industry. The customer costs for GPS are just like a phone, you pay for the hardware and a monthly data charge. Every plan available now comes out to $400 plus per year for one unit and the data charges. We're trying to get that cost to zero. We want to get the units to the bands free of charge by crowdfunding that cost and making zero profit, and lower the monthly cost to zero by crowdfunding the cost for the backed mapping application and host it ourselves. Is there a GPS transmitter located in each piece of gear?Yes, you need a transmitter in each piece of gear you want tracked. Experienced thieves use silencers GPS, you can easily buy in China.Realizing that there's no way to stop GPS silencers/jammers, GPSRoadie has the ability to notify you if the GPS signal is being blocked, which at this point is the best option. I'm very curious to know what methods this GPS system would employ and how it could possibly be faster than LoJack.GPSRoadie and LoJack are very similar - with two major exceptions - the cost and the ease-of-use. LoJack for vehicles costs $695 and needs to be professionally installed. Their Early Warning Upgrade is $300 additional. GPSRoadie is $100 and is self-installed (it comes with a waterproof, magnetic case - you simply stick it on the trailer.) Okay, the clock is ticking, I call 911 and explain my situation. What next?You can give police access to your account showing the location of the stolen trailer / item in real-time. It depends on the police availability whether they choose to take immediate action. There is nothing we can do about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted November 28, 2014 CMS Author Share Posted November 28, 2014 Sounds like your best option is to borrow a car and find the trailer yourself, and take it back. A carry permit comes in handy at times like these. Counting on police cooperation is at best 50/50. Those aren't good odds. A cop friend of my brother (who's a cop) reminded me that the cops are not here for crime prevention...they're only there to take reports and arrest the criminals too stupid to bother hiding out somewhere other than their apartment or their girlfriend's apartment... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted November 28, 2014 Members Share Posted November 28, 2014 I suppose if the cops thought the trailer was full of say firearms, response times might be quicker! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted November 28, 2014 CMS Author Share Posted November 28, 2014 ....or donuts... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Audiopile Posted November 28, 2014 Members Share Posted November 28, 2014 Counting on police cooperation is at best 50/50. Those aren't good odds. I'll suggest there can be some self help methods to improve "the odds": Good documentation seemingly can help: Supplying pictures of the gear along with a list of makes, models, serial numbers, and sales receipts. I suspect being able to supply coordinates of where the stuff is currently at (if it's not where it's supposed to be) would likely significantly improve the odds... especially from the standpoint (as I understand it) that a reported theft is exactly that, a "reported theft", until such time that authorities have solid evidence to elevate the situation to "theft"... i.e.: once reported stolen items are found to be in the possession of somebody else as opposed to the rightful owner/ victim of the theft. The criminal justice system seems to take on a whole 'nother level of action once a reported theft has legally qualified as theft (reported stolen property identified and seized, arrests made or warrants sworn). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wesg Posted November 28, 2014 Members Share Posted November 28, 2014 The tongue-in-cheek point is actually a good way to help with the odds. If you can legally store a firearm in your trailer, I can guarantee you'll get a faster response. A small child would work even better, but there may be moral complications there. Is GPS Roadie the product we are discussing, or a competitor? A $100 one-time-cost with some kind of cellular add-on price seems extremely reasonable. I don't understand the assertion that GPS service carries any kind of subscription fee, because it doesn't. A product like this should be delivered, IMHO, as a generic GSM device that you drop a SIM chip into. Let the data service on the SIM chip be the end user's problem. That said, there is no need for this product to deliver location information over data bearer service; IM(professional)O SMS is better-suited to the task at hand. It would also be really cool if the product shipped with micro coaxial connectors for optional external cellular and GPS antennas. Wes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SpaceNorman Posted November 28, 2014 Members Share Posted November 28, 2014 Sounds like your best option is to borrow a car and find the trailer yourself' date=' and take it back. A carry permit comes in handy at times like these...[/quote'] Am I reading this right? You're suggesting sleuthing it out on your own - and then "go it alone", mounting an offensive (a potentially armed offensive at that) to "take it back"? With all due respect - I think you're letting internet bad-ass-edry get the best of your thought process with this one. Between my keyboard rig, my PA and lights ... I've easily got $25K invested (cost to me new). I'm a military vet, a CPL holder and a life long hockey player who's seen my share of confrontation - but still there's nothing in my collection of possessions that I'm willing to truly put my life at risk over. I absolutely hate being a crime victim ... but I'm still not going to willingly put my own freedom (recognizing that "taking it back" will likely mean fracturing a few laws in the process ... since the thieves likely didn't move the gear to a public venue) and potentially my life by potentially starting a private firefight over a pile of music gear. Call me crazy - but I have a firm rule. "Never try to think with my balls!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted November 28, 2014 CMS Author Share Posted November 28, 2014 You're reading way too much into my post, Norman. Go find the trailer. If you can't hook up and go, call the cops. If you're confronted while waiting, it never hurts to be prepared to defend yourself. A friend had his vehicle stolen with all his tools in it. Called the cops, who did NOTHING. He drove around town looking, and on the 2nd day he spotted the guy he saw just before the Jeep was stolen. He followed the guy to an alley (the town kind with garages, not a city alley) and the Jeep was there, with all the tools. He called the cops, and got his stuff back, less a pack of gum and a screwdriver, and some body damage on the Jeep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted November 28, 2014 Members Share Posted November 28, 2014 Take my comment with the grain of salt that was implied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BlackBelt Posted November 28, 2014 Members Share Posted November 28, 2014 Tears ago I was with a touring band travelling across the country in a 22ft bed Ryder truck that we had bought. Every night on tour had to sleep on the truck. We had a semi-comfortable camping mattress in the back and it really wasnt too bad. Although it never happened, I always wondered what would happen if I was asleep in the back and somebody drove away with the truck. I think these days I would happily put a gps in the truck, and on a couple pieces of expensive gear if it were financially feasible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Screaming Stone Posted November 28, 2014 Members Share Posted November 28, 2014 Wes - Yes, our plan right now is to ship without the SIM card (uses a micro-SIM) - that is where a lot of the hidden cost to the consumer is. Very easy to buy a SIM card from T-Mobile (one of the cheapest) install and pay as needed. We may offer the option of us installing the card and managing the payments, but ideally it's the end-user doing this to save money. Also lets the user be in charge of the costs, so if they aren't touring during the Winter, they don't pay. GPS service does not have a subscription fee. The monthly fee companies charge is for the cellular data (which if user installs with GPSRoadie would not apply) and for their backend software costs (both the management software, and because Google maps charges a fee to any commercial app connecting to it.) The most popular backend GPS software is expensive (in our opinion.) They charge a couple grand for implementing, $50 setup per user, plus $10/month per device - just for the software. Companies reselling this charge anywhere from $20 to $60/month ($20 if you buy their hardware at full retail, $60 if you buy their hardware at reduced price and sign two year agreement.) Our goal is to crowdsource the money to develop our own backend, use cloud-based hosting, and offer the app in two versions - free (with ads) and paid (no ads). We still have to pay the developers, pay Google for the mapping, and pay for the hosting - so we need to generate revenue to cover those costs. The GPSRoadie does have connector for external antennae, so it can either be installed outside or inside the trailer. By itself, it's smaller than a deck of cards. I've put one in the styrofoam area of my Strat case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Screaming Stone Posted November 28, 2014 Members Share Posted November 28, 2014 Someone asked in another forum why not use Bluetooth and what about the no-monthly charge "Crowd-sourced GPS" and accessing free-WiFi? Bluetooth has limited range, usually less than 150 feet, and realistically 100 feet. Bluetooth cannot tell you location, only proximity - you have to be near the Bluetooth device to connect to it. The "location" these units provide is actually the location of the phone that has the app installed and connected to the Bluetooth device. Crowd-sourced GPS, like Tile and Trackr, do not use GPS at all. They use Bluetooth technology. For all of the hype those devices are getting, the crowd-sourced GPS is a long way from being practical. You would need tens of thousands of people in one city with that app loaded onto their phone for it to be of any help. TrackR claims over 5 million people on their network. Looking into that claim, you'll find out that they connected with Open Garden, a mesh WiFi application that was originally developed for countries where the government was censoring online activity and in 3rd world countries where WiFi is not readily available. Granted they have maybe couple million users of the app in the US, but the majority of users are in Hong Kong, Iraq, Iran and other similar countries - so if you are touring Iraq, great, it might work. Free Wi-Fi works by scanning the area for WiFi hubs. If it is unsecured, it can access that network. If secured, it goes through a series of hacks to try and gain access. The hacking takes anywhere from 2 to 10 minutes. If the trailer is being stolen and is moving, regardless of open or secure, it's moving too fast for it to connect to a WiFi network. Not a good technology to rely on to track a moving item. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted November 29, 2014 CMS Author Share Posted November 29, 2014 Well, the technology sounds realistic and unless the thieves are savvy to it, secure enough. But the payment issues seem iffy...it doesn't seem like the intended use of crowdfunding as it's more like begging than funding a new idea. Anyone thinking about it will ask why someone who can afford a PRS guitar can't afford the GPS to protect it...just as we ask folks here with twenty grand in instruments why that can't spare more than $3000 for a PA system... I like that fact that you can find the stuff yourself instead of waiting around for the cops to find their one patrol car with LoJack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wesg Posted November 29, 2014 Members Share Posted November 29, 2014 Selling without the SIM is a good plan. You should source and make available nano SIM adapter trays, and make sure your product works with them. That will allow iPhone users to just pop the SIM out of their iPhone 5 or 6, into the adapter tray, and into your product if they only need occasional protection. Getting mapping software up and running should not be a big deal. My advice, first and foremost, is to allow users to reconfigure your product to allow either alternate URLs or MSISDNs, depending on if you are using data or SMS bearer to deliver the data. Note that I will always push for an SMS option on a product like this. From the hardware POV there is zero overhead, and the software layer is easy; the usual way to send SMS on embedded products is with the ETSI GSM 03.38 command set over a serial port. That stuff's easy. The tricky part is having a place to SEND the SMS. Two-way communication with SMS products in North America is a nightmare due to the way wireless number portability was implemented when migrating away from CDMA networks. The European situation is much cleaner. The easiest way for a small business to implement an SMS-based location service is actually to deploy GSM modems, this eliminates SMS aggregator pain and fees - but puts you in other pain........carrier TOSs have caused problems there for me in the past. Data service has the advantage that the servers are easier to deploy, but it has the distinct disadvantage that coverage is not as ubiquitous, particularly when roaming on foreign networks and working in fringe coverage areas. It can also have hidden surprise fees if the subscriber does not have the right data plan attached to the SIM card. Free WiFi is something you absolutely cannot rely on for this technology. It would be good to try and use it if you're out of cellular coverage, though. Doing the mapping bits on the web is a piece of cake. I wrote a mapping piece for a vehicle tracking system in a weekend a couple of years ago. Use the Google Maps API. Oh, I almost forgot to mention, the #1 reason you want a user-configurable URL on your product is because that is the very best way to get community involvement on the development of a back end. And for God's sake, keep the data exchange simple, if your developers suggest SOAP, fire them. What's your interface-with-the-box technology? If you have a USB port and the gizmo is running Linux, you could make it a USB Ethernet gadget...couple of kernel options and a DHCP server...then the user plugs it into their computer, configures the newly-discovered ethernet interface, and surfs to the right address to configure it. No extra driver BS. Making it a USB storage gadget with a text configuration file would be a decent way to recover the device in case of bad configuration and/or troubleshoot at the customer support stage. Wes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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