Getting started

[LeahIsHazy]

I'm sure similar questions have been posed here, but I didn't see anything on the first page and I figured you all probably have a lot more experience with this than I do.

I'm a vocalist in a pop punk band, but I'm coming from a background where I've always played only in places that have their own equipment, but I've never played with a band before. I know as a starting point I'll need something small to get me over the instruments in practice - I've got a very small guitar amp for the moment and a Lewitt MTP 540 DM that I bought because I like the sound better than a lot of the higher end mics - but also very important is that we're planning to start gigging as soon as possible and I really don't know where to start when it comes to amplifying my voice against the band. I'm thinking that I'd like to start building a PA system for myself, what might be the best way to start doing that?

I don't have a set budget as I plan to build up relatively slowly. What would you guys suggest for getting a female vocalist of the Paramore/Tonight Alive variety over guitar, bass, and drums for rehearsals, moving into small venues and up into larger ones?

Thanks so much in advance.

[OneEng]

How much money do you have to spend on this?

[LeahIsHazy]

I'm planning to spend slowly, so I know that there are a lot of things that are going to be much more expensive. I think my limit on any one item would be about $2000 however spending that would mean I couldn't buy anything for a couple of months. It would be silly to buy something that can't be expanded upon and used in the future as well. I don't have a set overall budget, I cannot spend more than like 8,000 - 9,000 in a year. Does that answer help at all?

[Audiopile]

I'm planning to spend slowly, so I know that there are a lot of things that are going to be much more expensive. I think my limit on any one item would be about $2000 however spending that would mean I couldn't buy anything for a couple of months. It would be silly to buy something that can't be expanded upon and used in the future as well. I don't have a set overall budget, I cannot spend more than like 8,000 - 9,000 in a year. Does that answer help at all?

Yes, that does help. You seem to be based in reality. What you've offered is realistic. Question now I'll suggest is application and human resources'?

[cappttenron]

If you will be responsible for moving your own gear make sure you get something you can handle. Even though a 50 pound speaker may sound great it might be to much for you to handle putting in your car. I would very much suggest a powered speaker from a quality manufacturer. QSC K series and the Yamaha DXR are very popular on this forum.

 

[LeahIsHazy]

Thank you! I'm not really new to music, just to having my own set up.

At start up I need to be able to get over my alternative rock/pop punk band which is lead guitar, drums, and bass for rehearsal and writing. I also play rhythm guitar/keyboard sometimes so there are a lot of instruments to be louder than. I think for now I can probably use the things I have for that since the sound doesn't have to be good, I just have to not wreck my voice. I've got a small practice amp and a mic to hook it up to. We have to start out playing smaller venues (bars mostly), but I think it would be best if it could be built upon to play larger venues. It's rock music, and I know the rest of the band always wants more power. Is that the information you're looking for?

[LeahIsHazy]

I'll definitely keep the weight in mind. I'm not too worried about 50 pounds, I regularly lift and carry 60 for my job, but it would definitely be easier if they were lighter.

[cappttenron]

There is a big difference between moving 50 plus pounds and putting it on a speaker stand or one handing it up some stairs. I weigh 220 pounds and I don't like lifting heavy speakers on to speaker stands. Also since your playing guitar and singing you don't need to be worrying about the very low frequency so a 10 inch speaker would be more than enough.

[modulusman]

I would suggest getting one powered speaker to start. If it is just you singing you can buy something like a Yamaha DXR 10 or 12 or QSC k series that has a basic mixer built in. I own some DXR 10s that I really like. They sell for around $600.00 sound great are light and come with a 7 year warranty. You could then expand later by getting another speaker and a mixer.

[Audiopile]

 

we're planning to start gigging as soon as possible and I really don't know where to start when it comes to amplifying my voice against the band. I'm thinking that I'd like to start building a PA system for myself, what might be the best way to start doing that?

I don't have a set budget as I plan to build up relatively slowly. What would you guys suggest for getting a female vocalist of the Paramore/Tonight Alive variety over guitar, bass, and drums for rehearsals, moving into small venues and up into larger ones?

I'll suggest there's much to consider if taking a business model approach.

 

Consider your chosen genre, likely venues/market, stage volume, and where you want to take this project.

 

I'll suggest it's likely that a complete sound and "ok" lighting system that's truly capable will have a capitalization cost of somewhere around $20K (+/- $5K), and likely another $10K for a suitable vehicle. Figure 1% (+/- 1/2%) of the equipment capitalization cost per gig for maintenance and replacement costs... or about $200 per gig. Figure probably somewhere around 50 cents per mile equipment transportation vehicle operating costs. A truly capable/professional tech will likely run another $200 - $250 per show. And there could be storage costs. Totally maybe $500 (+/- $100?) cost per show for fully self contained capable production gear and support personnel. You could likely prune the investment and operating costs back considerably if playing small venues and/or keeping the stage volume down to where a basic box mixer and speakers on sticks (or similar) are sufficient... but that may involve some considerable compromises.

 

You gotta pencil it out. It may be that exclusively performing at venues that have decent in-house systems and operators that will generate your desired finished product to your target audiences is the best business model. Or hire a production company to do the sound & lights. If an extra $1 in production costs yields more than $1 in gross income or gets you to your desired goals quicker, the cost is likely justified.

 

For your immediate needs (practice), the best tool for the job at the least cost and the most usefulness in the future when you're performing might be a decent IEM (in ear monitor) system.

[OneEng]

I'm planning to spend slowly, so I know that there are a lot of things that are going to be much more expensive. I think my limit on any one item would be about $2000 however spending that would mean I couldn't buy anything for a couple of months. It would be silly to buy something that can't be expanded upon and used in the future as well. I don't have a set overall budget, I cannot spend more than like 8,000 - 9,000 in a year. Does that answer help at all?

 

 

I think you have budgeted more than enough for your stated purpose (getting your vocals over the band). I was worried you were going to say you wanted to play in a stadium on a $500.00 PA

 

First, let me say that if your band gets more serious and starts playing out, you are eventually going to want to amplify the entire band through the PA.... but that may be a ways out.

 

In order to "get started" these are the steps I would take (most of us here were "starting out" at one time or another too ).

 

First: Get the vocals loud and clear. Vocals are the number one factor to having a good band (unless you are playing blues or blue grass).

 

I would recommend the Yamaha DXR12's for this purpose. They are relatively light, get really loud, and are a pretty good speaker to expand the system on later. These can be had for around $650 each .... like from here: http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/DXR12?utm_source=Google&utm_medium=PPC&utm_campaign=none&utm_term=DSA_-_Product&adpos=1t1&device=c&network=g&gclid=CKCyvfHD7cACFeJcMgodH38AKg

 

You are going to need a set of speaker stands like these: http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=24982976&utm_source=GooglePLA&utm_medium=pla&utm_term=55063289&gclid=CJiu_azE7cACFYGC4AodwwEAGA&gclsrc=ds

 

You are going to want a mixer, but you can start out with these speakers just going directly from your microphone to the first speaker, then going from that speaker to the next with XLR cables. You should have at least 5 of these things. 3 to use, and 2 spares just in case one gets broken (it happens).

 

That will get you over the band permanently and give you a starter rig for gigging.

 

The mixer is a big consideration. This will become the control center for your entire band. Your ability to create a good mix with it will determine how good you sound.

 

Since you are just starting out, I would recommend an Allen & Heath ZED10Fx. This will not have a chance of being used for a full band since it doesn't have enough channels; however, it is a rock solid mixer with good sounding built in vocal efx and the best in class channel strip in this price range of a mixer. These run around $300.00 and you will need a few more XLR cables added to your inventory

 

In your distant future, a full band needs a minimum of a 16 XLR input mixer with many monitor outputs having different mixes capable on each monitor. A full band will have subwoofers. Subs make a HUGE difference to your sound. I have had some really good sounding bands play with just the little ZED10Fx micing the vocals and kick drum with 2 subs and 2 tops. You can do lots of little clubs like this and sound great doing it.

 

When you get to the point where your band is one of the sought after bands in your area (there are a couple around me) you can command $1,000 - $3000 per gig (weddings even more). These bands generally have a very professional setup with in-ear monitoring systems, digital mixers, and some pretty good speaker systems running with them.

 

I think you would be surprised at how much you can do with the DXR12's, ZED 10fx, and a couple of decent subwoofers. I generally recommend the JBL PRX718XLF to those wanting a good sub. You can get them new for around $1,100 each if you call around. Start with one, then get another later.

 

If you mic the kick, my favorite kick mic is the Audix D6. These go for around $200.00.

 

Hope this helps.

[agedhorse]

You are likely to discover that the mic you have selected is very much the wrong tool for the task of live audio in a club setting. You will also most likely want to include a stage monitor to be able to hear yourself as things get a little louder on stage, you can use the same powered speakers that have bees suggested for main(s) as a monitor which gives you a backup in case of failure.

[StratGuy22]

Toronto? Go talk to the friendly people at long & McQuade. They could set you up with a rental system to try out, and you can see if it fits your needs.

[Craig Vecchione]

I like Mark H's suggestion to use IEM's for rehearsal and to use at gigs. A small mixer and a Shure or Sennheiser pro wireless setup will fit your annual budget and give you a great monitoring system.

 

If you prefer speakers, the QSC and Yamaha's already mentioned are definitely good, and I also like EV's ZLX powered speakers for the lowest cost option.

[Pro Sound Guy]

Ok I read the first post and you should really consider getting a small sound company to come in and do your production for you.

If you can budget your band cost to include pro sound your band will HIGHLY benefit from having good sound and lights.

[LeahIsHazy]

Thank you for that suggestion. I'll definitely test some out the next time I'm at the music store. I have a feeling I've used the DXR 12 as a rental before, and I seem to remember liking them, but I could be wrong about the make.

[LeahIsHazy]

We got very lucky and have someone who apprenticed with lighting as a good friend, the rest of the band has worked with him before. I haven't seen what he can do, but apparently he's pretty decent and has his own equipment. I'll believe it when I see it.

I do appreciate you laying it out as a business model. I'll definitely keep that in mind. It definitely only makes sense to spend money if it's going to lead to an equal or greater income with the final product.

I hadn't actually considered in ear monitoring at this stage. I'll look into it, thank you!

[LeahIsHazy]

The person I was speaking with seemed to think it would be okay. It had a fuller sound than the others, and it actually came through more clear than similar mics. I don't know for sure that it will stand up in larger venues, but I liked the way my voice sounded through it better than I did with some of the condenser mics. I definitely love having a stage monitor, I've worked with them before. I'm not sure I'd be comfortable on stage without a way to hear myself, so it's certainly on the list of things I need. That's a brilliant idea using the speakers as the backup! Thank you.

[LeahIsHazy]

I'm definitely going to look into the IEMS' more tonight, it sounds like a really good way to go. Again, thank you I'll look into those.

[LeahIsHazy]

 

 

 

In order to "get started" these are the steps I would take (most of us here were "starting out" at one time or another too ).

 

First: Get the vocals loud and clear. Vocals are the number one factor to having a good band (unless you are playing blues or blue grass).

 

I would recommend the Yamaha DXR12's for this purpose. They are relatively light, get really loud, and are a pretty good speaker to expand the system on later. These can be had for around $650 each .... like from here: http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/DXR12?utm_source=Google&utm_medium=PPC&utm_campaign=none&utm_term=DSA_-_Product&adpos=1t1&device=c&network=g&gclid=CKCyvfHD7cACFeJcMgodH38AKg

 

You are going to need a set of speaker stands like these: http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=24982976&utm_source=GooglePLA&utm_medium=pla&utm_term=55063289&gclid=CJiu_azE7cACFYGC4AodwwEAGA&gclsrc=ds

 

You are going to want a mixer, but you can start out with these speakers just going directly from your microphone to the first speaker, then going from that speaker to the next with XLR cables. You should have at least 5 of these things. 3 to use, and 2 spares just in case one gets broken (it happens).

 

That will get you over the band permanently and give you a starter rig for gigging.

 

The mixer is a big consideration. This will become the control center for your entire band. Your ability to create a good mix with it will determine how good you sound.

 

Since you are just starting out, I would recommend an Allen & Heath ZED10Fx. This will not have a chance of being used for a full band since it doesn't have enough channels; however, it is a rock solid mixer with good sounding built in vocal efx and the best in class channel strip in this price range of a mixer. These run around $300.00 and you will need a few more XLR cables added to your inventory

 

In your distant future, a full band needs a minimum of a 16 XLR input mixer with many monitor outputs having different mixes capable on each monitor. A full band will have subwoofers. Subs make a HUGE difference to your sound. I have had some really good sounding bands play with just the little ZED10Fx micing the vocals and kick drum with 2 subs and 2 tops. You can do lots of little clubs like this and sound great doing it.

 

 

Hope this helps.

 

Are the stands a must from startup, or can I get away with waiting on them until we're ready to start gigging? I know we'll have to have them up of the floor for shows, but could they potentially sit on the floor (facing me) in rehearsal do you think? I know the mixer will end up taking the whole band, would it maybe be better to buy one that would work for everyone initially? I won't likely be buying it right away anyway. That one does actually sound really good, but for the difference in cost it's sometimes worth it to buy the one you'll end up needing, yes?

 

So on a start up basis, what I'll likely need is a set of speakers, a mixer, and a subwoofer and everything can be upgraded and added to as necessary after, is what I'm getting. Or am I way off base?

 

Thank you all by the way.

[LeahIsHazy]

Ok I read the first post and you should really consider getting a small sound company to come in and do your production for you.

If you can budget your band cost to include pro sound your band will HIGHLY benefit from having good sound and lights.

 

I would definitely do it when we're a little more off the ground, but until we're making money and not just spending it, that isn't really feasible. It's definitely a consideration when we start playing shows, especially bigger shows.

[agedhorse]

Ok I read the first post and you should really consider getting a small sound company to come in and do your production for you.

If you can budget your band cost to include pro sound your band will HIGHLY benefit from having good sound and lights.

Actually, I like this suggestion more and more, a good way to see what might be needed AND the results.

[agedhorse]

Actually, I like this suggestion more and more, a good way to see what might be needed AND the results.

I think it would be a cheap (relatively) learning experience.

[Crownman]

 

I would definitely do it when we're a little more off the ground, but until we're making money and not just spending it, that isn't really feasible. It's definitely a consideration when we start playing shows, especially bigger shows.

 

Look at it a different way. Would you rather spend money now on what you THINK will work right now? But then find out that it isn't really what you need? Then you're stuck with something to try and sell and then spend more money to get what you need. You may see hiring out for sound as an unneeded expense right now but it's a way for you to rent a few times to find out exactly what you need to get what you need. Then go buy it and you'll only have to buy once.

 

Too many times we have people that ask this question on here, then go by what they think will be fine. Then after a few gigs they're back on here saying that after actually using the item a few times it isn't going to do the job well enough. That's the track you want to avoid because you end up spending even more in the end.

[LeahIsHazy]

 

Look at it a different way. Would you rather spend money now on what you THINK will work right now? But then find out that it isn't really what you need? Then you're stuck with something to try and sell and then spend more money to get what you need. You may see hiring out for sound as an unneeded expense right now but it's a way for you to rent a few times to find out exactly what you need to get what you need. Then go buy it and you'll only have to buy once.

 

Too many times we have people that ask this question on here, then go by what they think will be fine. Then after a few gigs they're back on here saying that after actually using the item a few times it isn't going to do the job well enough. That's the track you want to avoid because you end up spending even more in the end.

 

 

That's a very good point actually. Thank you for putting it that way. I'll definitely be bringing that one up with the guys. I definitely still need something for rehearsal but that just has to give me enough to get me over the instruments in a small room, and I'll likely be making do for a little while anyway with the amp I already own. I'll look into that, it might work very well to get a feel for everything.