Growing my PA - mulling over next step

[wesg]

I started building a PA around this time last year. The annual "Attic Sale" at Long & McQuade's Toronto location is coming up and it's time for me to start owning them more money. This is where they turn over their rental gear, which is usually two or three years old based on the serial numbers I have seen. I buy 1 year warranties to hedge my bets on abused speakers. So far I haven't had any major problems (knock on wood). Just loose connectors inside, and the service turn-around time is amazing.

 

I currently have 3 NX55Ps. I use 2 of them as tops in small clubs, they are adequate, but I would like to be able to mix in a bit more kick. My current mixing technique is to put a bit of compression on the kick, put a ~6dB peak on the low EQ (sweeping the frequency until it sounds right), and then I watch the limit light on the speaker closest to me during sound check. I turn up the kick until the drummer can hit the limiter, then I back him off about 3dB and keep an eye on the light all night long. The bass does not currently go through the PA, although it would be nice to change that.

 

For small gigs, I've been renting monitors (3xJBL JRX112 + 800W Crown amp) to supplement what I have, for larger gigs I've been renting subs, tops, a monitor, and an operator. I like the sound of the NX55Ps quite a lot more than the JRX. I especially like that I don't need to EQ the NX55Ps to get a nice sound, as I am really not very good at that.

 

We use four monitors with three mixes: keys, drums, front guys. The bass player will either set up to hear the drum or front monitor.

 

Actually, while I'm thinking about this: is there any advantage to using the drum monitor in the "stand up" position instead of as a wedge? I see this often, but I don't understand why it's like that. Is it to get the horn closer to the drummer's head?

 

My eventual goal is to own 7 NX55Ps and subs to match a pair of them as FOH. 7 because I want four monitors, two tops, and one spare. So, I need 3 and want 4 more NX55P to finish my system.

 

At this stage, I think I can afford four units of

 

- NX55P

- pair of NX25P

- LS701P sub

 

I'm trying to figure out where my priorities are. I could get one NX55P, two NX25P and two LS701P. That would give me enough speakers all around, but I'm not sure I want NX25Ps. The only position they would work in is the "front guys" monitor position. Another options is to keep with all NX55P (I have been extremely happy with these), but either stay short one monitor, or be short one sub. I could probably get away staying short one monitor, the new drummer owns some kind of Behringer 12" speakers that would probably do in a pinch.

 

Are these subs appropriate? I have to admit, the size is very tempting, and the price is right this week. The spec sheet seems to indicate they are loud, and I trust the Yorkville name, but I have to admit I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around a sub with a pair of 10" speakers in it.

 

I have previously rented PRX515 over PRX618S (not XLF) and was very, very, very happy with that system when the subs were in the corner. Plenty loud with all kinds of headroom. It was a bit lacking when the subs were under the tops, though. Will NX55P over LS701P get me in the same ballpark? Studying the spec sheets, I'm guessing that the JBL tops would "throw farther" due to the 70x70 degree horn (vs 50x80) and 2dB more peak SPL. The LS701P spec sheet suggests that it would significantly out-perform the PRX618S.

 

Maybe the right choice is to add 3xNX55P and a single LS701P, adding a second LS701P at a later date?

 

I know these "what should I buy threads" can be a bit tedious..thanks for any insights you can offer. Oh - we are five-man bar band that occasionally plays indoor wedding receptions. The highest capacity bar in the region without a house PA is probably a 150 seat cap. Maybe less.

 

Wes

[vaughn4380]

Just randomly thinking out loud here, but do you really need a backup if you have four monitors that match your FOH speakers? Yes you would lose a monitor should a FOH speaker go down, but could your group limp through the night down one monitor? I know mine could, but our stage volume is very low compared to other local groups. This may not work for your group, but if it did, it would save you some cash. Yorkville has a pretty good reputation for reliability. Another option would be to buy a cheaper speaker as a backup, should anything happen you move a NX55P from monitor duty to FOH duty and use the cheaper backup speaker as the new monitor. Your drummers Behringer speakers could even be used in a pinch (at no cost to you).

 

Also, there is a lot of value to be had sticking with speakers you already know fit your needs and that match other speakers you already own, so my vote is to stick with the NX55ps since you state they work well for you.

 

I have no experience with those subs so I can't add anything about them other than to say, I would consider buying at least two (maybe not at the same time), two will allow you to place them next to each other and gain a few decibels from the coupling, or spread them out if you have a lower volume gig that needs more coverage. The PRX718XLF might also be a good candidate if you don't mind mixing brands, the output is pretty high for a single sub weighing around 80 pounds. The LS701 is a bandpass design if I remember right and a few members on here that have owned them said they needed some EQ to help them sound less "boomy". The JBL sounds great out of the box.

[nchangin]

My first reaction is why mix passive and active? Surely the processing can't be in align meaning some delays either on the passive or the active side depending upon the time to process signal. Do you have a specific budget at all?

[vaughn4380]

I might be wrong, but when I read his post the only passive gear I saw was a monitor rig that he rented from somewhere else. I got the impression he no longer wishes to rent this setup and wants to buy his own gear while going all active.

[nchangin]

Vaughn, I think I errored, Keep thinking those yorkies are passive, they are not I retract the statement.

[wesg]

Thanks Vaughn. To be clear, I am only contemplating getting at most of 3 of my target 4 more NX55Ps at this growth point. You're right that I could get away without a spare if I had one die, since there is a lot of redundancy in having one speaker everywhere......but I am kind of a wierd guy when it comes to redundancy, I like N+1. Probably comes from my day-job where I run computer systems that must be online 99.999% of the time. I have also considered making the extra one a center-fill for really big rooms, and/or giving the bass player his own monitor one wider stages......but that's a debate for another day. I definitely need to acquire 3 more monitors, and I want to leave the passive JRX rentals behind as you surmised.

 

Thanks for mentioning the bandpass design of the LS701P. I wasn't sure how they could get that output from those speakers. I some time on Google learning about that enclosure design. Very interesting.

 

nchangin - my budget is to add about another 2500 of debt onto my L&M store account. It will keep my monthly payment close to where it's at now and comfortable from a personal finances POV -- I won't miss it. That's not much for PA equipment, but L&M does let their retired rental stuff go for reasonable prices. Each unit I've outlined above is worth $499, with tax and 1 yr warranty option that comes to $603.42 per unit, hence my assertion that I could afford 4 right now but not 5 (which is what I want).

 

The business side of that equation must be interesting, since the same folks own both L&M and Yorkville, and they run financing in-house. So they get the speakers wholesale, rent them until they are more than paid for, then sell them for something approaching L&M's cost, whereupon they can turn another profit via warranty add-ons and and interest. The manufacturing arm (Yorkville) already made their full profit, especially given that any problems will probably be fixed by L&M in-house virtually eliminating returns to the factory. Great business plan! One of the few in the industry, I suspect. And a manufacturer effectively supplying their own retail wing means they have a stable enough market that they can afford to make stuff in this country....I would buy Yorkville stock if it was a public company...

[vaughn4380]

Hopefully Abzurd and Al Poulin chime in, they have both owned and used the LS701P and can add their experiences.

[OneEng]

Subs... You need subs more than anything else.

 

Using subs that have a high pass output will allow your NX55p's to go much louder before they clip since much of the lower frequencies will be taken care of by the subs.

 

I'll let those that have actually heard the LS701p talk to them. The LS801p's are an absolute beast and even one of them would be more than loud enough to handle 2 NX55p's. I personally like the quality of the sound of the PRX XLF subs better, and the XLF's also have a high pass filter output which I believe is lacking in the Yorkville powered subs (someone correct me if I am wrong). The LS801p is also >140lbs ..... which is a non starter for me these days.

 

My personal recommendation would be to get hold of a pair of XLF's, sell your amps and JRX speakers and replace them with one or more NX55p's to match your tops

 

 

[Shaster]

STOP!!! WARNING!!!

 

If you never listen to another thing I say, please listen to this. Do NOT get the LS701P. Do I need to repeat that? Don't do it.

 

I'm a huge Yorkville fan. I currently own three Unity U15's, two LS720P's, an NX55P, two elite e210's, one LS608, two E160P's, two ancient M160's, three NX84's, and a YX10P. I have owned many other Yorkville speakers and subs over the years. My least favourite sub is the 700P. If you want something to match your NX55P's then I suggest you consider a 720P - much, much better and it's lighter. The 700 or 701 is one big drone machine. I would even prefer it's little brother the LS200 (which I've owned and do NOT recommend).

 

I've used and/or owned the 801P, the 700P (owned for a month), the LS2100P, the LS608, the Paraline PSA1S, the 720P, the 200P, even the YX10SP (good only for solo acts and even then not so much).

 

Depending on your budget I would have no trouble recommending the 801P, the 21000P, the PSA1S, or the 720P. In addition, although they are too big for their bang I would even say get the Unity subs before the 700P. The 700P just puts out this low end mystery thump that gets really old after a few minutes. But let me tell you how I really feel

 

 

EDIT - Further to my suggestion of the LS720P, if you want to stay Yorkville, and you've got the space and vehicle and back, the LS801P is killer, and with your gear, you won't need more than one. I've used an 800P about 25 times this year and it's never come out of "idle". Just a killer sub. Failing that, the 720P will also work.

[Shaster]

And you thought my rant was over

 

I just looked at the Jack's sale prices in Toronto. Shhh don't tell anybody but for the pro gear at least they're pretty average. In the last year or so I've picked up my two LS720P's for $500 each - used of course. Both in great shape. I also picked up my NX55P for $500 as well, and it was also in great shape. So don't just rely on a once or twice a year sale. Keep tabs if you can every once in a while - it can pay off.

 

Okay, I'll shut up now.

[StratGuy22]

Adding an LS801p will make you wonder how you ever lived without one.

[wesg]

OneEng - I don't own the JRX stuff, I just rent it. I want to stop using it, but won't be able to sell it.

 

Shaster - I was really hoping you would chime in! The Jack's stuff is basically a smidge lower than Kijiji asking prices around here (even after considering tax) and about the same as used prices in Toronto. They have the advantage of warranty, store credit (works well with the way I run my household: no large music purchases show up all at once), and availability, even if they are far away (2.5 hours). In my immediate area, there is a real dearth of used PA gear. Driving to L&M at least means I'm not wasting a trip, because they will have

*something* I want. Ever driven 2 hours only to find out that the gear was mis-represented in the ad, or worse, it was sold out from under you while you were in transit? Ugh.

 

BTW - for anyone reading this, you can bargain those Jack's attic sale prices down a bit. They were asking $500 for NX55P last year, I paid $475 each with a bonus used Yorkville pro-line XLR cable. Hey, every little bit counts.

 

I am very limited on space, as I haul PA, organ, keys, Leslie, and wife in a large mini-van. I currently have to rent a trailer for some gigs. I am trying to find a Leslie 142 or 145 to shrink my organ footprint a bit. And I keep wondering how many NX55Ps I could stick in one of those rooftop carriers.

 

Do not get the LS701P? Damn. The price was tempting. I think I'll take your advice on this one, though. I hunted for reviews last night, it's weird, it's like nobody has ever bought these things. I'm not tied to the Yorkville line, but I do like them a lot and feel confident that if they break I can get them fixed fast. I would buy JBL in a heartbeat at the right price. Also QSC and maybe EV.

 

So this firms up my plan, I think -- buy 3 or 4 more NX55P and wait for subs until better subs become available at a price I can swing. Maybe pick up a new LS801P in August, when I finish paying for this stuff.

 

Wes

[Shaster]

The 801P's are great, although I will say that IMO one LS801P will outrun your tops by a mile.

 

For duo use, I use one LS720P with one NX55P and the 720P easily outruns the NX55P. That's why I think one 720P would do nicely with two NX55P's. At 75 lbs I can carry one easily enough. For size , warranty and repair access, ease of purchase and return, and sound, I wouldn't hesitate to recommend the LS720P in your situation. It's not a star like the 801P but there's nothing wrong with a good supporting actor either.

 

Re: tops, you might also want to see if there any second edition NX55's that are being discounted. Apparently the redesign has made them a much better cab than their original run. There's also the Parasource 12" that's supposed to be slamming.

 

BTW I've seen some E160P's on sale for $200 each (with 3 month warranty). Normally I wouldn't have recommended these as monitors, but I've recently found an EQ setting that turns them into functional cabs. In fact the singer in my R&B band prefers my EQ'd E160P's to the NX55P's. The E160P's are usually as old as dirt, but the ones with the round handles are a little newer. They were also made in the days when Yorkville didn't know about planned obsolescence. As a bonus they are one of the few Yorkville active top cabs that with the push of a button will accept speaker level signals. That feature is normally found only on Yorkville's subs. They were originally around $900 and were replaced by the E10P - another really hard to EQ cab. Just something to consider and watch out for.

[wesg]

Thanks, Shaster. I'd actually been considering the LS720P for some time -- at $985 new it seems like a great value -- but I could never figure out if it was enough for a rock band with two NX55P in a 100-cap room or not. My gut said, "yes", but folks on the web seem to like to run them in pairs, which was making me think maybe the LS801P would be a better choice. I suppose even if the LS720P isn't quite big enough that I'm still way ahead of where I am running the NX55Ps full range!

 

As for "second edition NX55P", I guess you mean the NX55P-2? I'll ask, but they are only 8 or so months old..doubt they will be turning then over quite yet. If you meant later NX55P (they have been through at least 3 revisions since their introduction, I think) -- that's what I got last time, I'm pretty sure. They sound great, and their serial numbers start with 2 -- so made in 2012, I believe...NX550P was replaced in 2006 or so.

 

BTW, have you seen the NX55P-2 in person? The picture on the web page is fugly. I hope they look better in person.

 

Wes

[Al Poulin]

720Ps are designed to run 1/1 with the NX55Ps - so a pair of subs to a pair of tops, but I suppose a single one could work for less demanding applications. Agreed the 720P is more musical than 700P - I owned both for many years. BTW, the new NX boxes look great. Many of Yorkville's pics suck on their website. Look at the YX15PC for instance - it looks like a huge 80s speaker...

 

Al

[Shaster]

Thanks, Shaster. I'd actually been considering the LS720P for some time -- at $985 new it seems like a great value -- but I could never figure out if it was enough for a rock band with two NX55P in a 100-cap room or not. My gut said, "yes", but folks on the web seem to like to run them in pairs, which was making me think maybe the LS801P would be a better choice. I suppose even if the LS720P isn't quite big enough that I'm still way ahead of where I am running the NX55Ps full range!

 

 

Wes

 

IME as long as you run the LS720P's reasonably hot, they will thump - not like an 801P but certainly enough for two NX55's. I mentioned that I've used the NX55P with one LS720P and I find the sub outruns my top, to the point where I'll get low end volume complaints - I'm a ow end junkie.... can't help myself!

 

I've been doing a once a week semi house gig this year. They started with an LS801P, switched to a 700P (because the management thought it would be quieter), and went back to the 801P because it sounded so much better. One weekend they "lost" the 801P so I brought one LS720P, and I got to do a direct comparison of all three at the same venue. The 801P was the easy winner (no surprise), with the LS720P not too far behind (at low/moderate volumes) and the 700P practically out of the running (because of it's sound).

 

As I said, I picked up both of my LS720P's used for $500 each, but just be careful with used subs.

 

Bottom line, the 801P is absolutely superior to the LS720P but then again a Unity U15P or EF500 would be superior to the NX55P. The question is, will the weight, larger pack size, and cost be worth it to you?

 

 

 

 

[DHall]

Normally don't post, but found this thread interesting. I'm similar to Wes in that I do this part time and have gotten a lot of my gear used from Rock N Roll Rental here in Austin, which carries lots of Yorkville. I've tried both the LS801 and the UCS1P and actually own a pair of UCS1Ps that I got there for $1400/pair. I actually kind of like them a little better than the 801s as they seem to throw a little further, but I've never really paired them with anything but Unity tops. Not sure how they would sound with NX tops. They have a high pass filter as well. They're monsters like the LS801, but I have a son to help load. Not sure if anyone else has tried them with other tops or what deal you can get there. Two tend to overpower my U15 tops and I have to turn them down a bit most of the time. I imagine one would be quite a bit for most events.

[Shaster]

Greetings DHall, thanks for chiming in.

 

I originally lusted for the UCS1P's because I had visions of just plopping my U15's on top and calling it a day. I did give the UCS1P's a pretty good run in the store, but I've never tried them out in the field, and there just aren't many around in my area, even though it's Yorkville country. In my "store" comparison they were fine but I liked, and was more used to, the LS801P.

 

So... do you stack your U15's on top or do you still have to stand mount them? I'm assuming you've got the U15's and not the U215's.

 

I can see that they might throw a little further, being horn versus quasi horn - IIRC.

 

BTW that's a good price on those subs, nice score.

[DHall]

Being as tall as they are, I usually just put the U15s on top. You really don't see a lot of the UCS1Ps around like you said, but the guy at the rental store recommended them to me one time for an outdoor event rental and I fell in love and bought them. Thanks for the welcome. I actually have everything loaded in my SUV today going up to Dallas to DJ my sister's wedding. Loading them this morning reminded me how heavy they are. I need a trailer.

[wesg]

So - I pulled the trigger and bought three more NX55Ps, all made in 2013. I got the store to budge a bit on price, so was able to essentially get the 1yr warranty coverage for free. This means the next major thing my PA needs is more GEQ (I used to rent extra GEQ along with the JRX rig) followed by subs. And a tailer, like DHall. Definitely getting there. I'm glad I took this forum's advice and didn't buy crap when I started out last year.

 

Hey, Al Poulin, I think I bumped into your mysterious NX55P low-volume distortion bug last night. I was doing filter sweeps on one of my synths. This was with a 2012 NX55P. I should get out my signal generator.

 

BTW, I saw a used dbx 2231 for $400 there. What makes a 2231 worth more than a 231s? Is it just the extra SNR? Does it achieve this with super-quiet op-amps, or does it somehow actually take noise out of the signal chain?

 

Wes

[abzurd]

Actually the 700/701Ps are OK, but are kind of past their prime. Even 5 yrs ago they were a good value for size, weight, output and price. I bought a used pair of ES700Ps for $800 and used them for 4-5 years. The secret is you need an external crossover with them. If you cross them at 90 Hz they sound much bigger and are not all one 120 Hz drone tone. I'm actually not a fan of Yorkville subs because the LPF they put on them is terrible, and you still need a crossover for your tops most of the time.

[Bobby1Note]

Wesq, it looks like we've headed down a similar path.

 

Over the last seven years, I've grown my setup to 8 NX55P's, four EF500P's, a pair of U15P's, a pair of LS-720P's, and a pair of LS-801P's.

 

My first set-up consisted of a pair of NX55P's over a pair of LS-720P subs,(w/A&H MixWiz3 16;2). Like you, I added another pair of NX55P's each year for the next few years, until I had eight. (2 for FOH + 6 monitors,,, or 4 for FOH +4 monitors). Basically, I was evolving that rig to match the number of outputs on my MixWiz3 16;2.(mains and aux-sends). This was a nice scalable system that would handle virtually all of my immediate needs. ("live" rock, small clubs, 100-150 max)

 

At one point, I was offered a package of four used (but guaranteed) EF500P's from my Yorkie dealer, so I went for it. This was an unplanned purchase, but rather, an opportunity that I felt I shouldn't pass up. I can still sell those speakers for the price I paid for them, so basically, I wasn't risking anything. Essentially, I was "parking" some cash. I set those aside for the time being, since I rarely had a need to use them. (small gigs) It was worthwhile for me knowing that I had the capacity to do larger outdoor gigs should the need arise.

 

When it came time to upgrade from the NX55P/LS-720P rig, I didn't want to do a lateral move, so I opted to go with the U15P's. (I wanted a high quality 3-way box). I had originally considered buying the UCS1P subs for that rig, but, after hearing the LS-801P's, I decided to go that route instead.(for various reasons). One of those reasons of course, was that the LS-801P's mated so well with the EF500's that I had already purchased, plus the fact that they also sounded great with the U15P's. (very flexible sound profile,,,highly efficient (105dB/1w/1meter),,,monster output capability).

 

With this set-up, I can run 8 or more stage-monitors, side-fills, center-fills, and FOH. More than I'll ever need. Naturally, I've also added a few more consoles to take advantage of the speaker availability. (A&H GL-2400-24 and PreSonus SL-24), but I still love my MixWiz3 16:2., to which I've added a pair of dbx-1231's and a Lexicon MX-400.

 

In hind-sight, could I have done better? Well, that depends on which perspective you're looking from,,,, what your future goals are, etc. Yorkies new light-weight boxes with multi-band limiting certainly are interesting, but the fact remains, I simply don't have the clientele to merit an upgrade from what I already have. If I were starting with a clean slate, with the possibility of growth, I'd probably opt for a complete NEXO rig, based on the PS or RS series boxes,amps,and processors. The d&B AudioTechnik Q7's would be my ultimate dream system, but that's simply unaffordable given my current situation.

[StratGuy22]

Love my U15's over LS800p's they've served me well for 11 years now.