Adding compression in a Muddy room

[mikekars]

Most of the indoor gigs I do for rock type music are in community buildings and other venues that are very reverberant spaces. Add the typically loud crowd noise into the equation and the result is I often am battling muddiness in the low mid frequencies. EQ cuts in the suspected range of individual channels and the overall system does help but the problem is not completely eliminated.

 

For a variety of, IMO, valid reasons I often use varying degrees of compression on most individual channels. But lately I am wondering if confronted with a particularly bad problem with muddiness, if forgoing the compression would somehow help to clear this up?

[abzurd]

It depends what you're doing with the compression. If you are compressing vocals using a low threshold and a good bit of make up gain, then you are essentially elevating the backline sound through the PA. That will decrease intelligibility. You may want to switch to using the compressor as a limiter for vocals (no make up gain and put the threshold at just a few dB before clipping and at > 15:1 (or infinite, whatever the highest the compressor has).

 

Other tips.

 

- Use as few open mics as possible. If a player only sings one song the whole time then there's no reason to have the mic open the other 30+ songs.

 

- Consider gating the backing vocals. Each of my band mates sings 1 song a night where they are the lead. I'll gate their vocals when they are just doing "gang backup" work. When they sing lead for their one song I'll take the gate off for just that song. Whether this is practical depends on how much singing everyone is doing. You don't want it to sound gated. You also can really only do this with bands that have reasonable stage volume. If it's too high the gate will either chatter, especially on snare and cymbal hits, or won't open at all because it has to be set higher than the singer is singing so it does no good.

 

- High Pass Filters - If variable, during the show, keep raising the HPF on the vocals until you can hear the vocal getting too thin, then back it down a bit. You may find you can get to 150 - 200 Hz before noticing. That will keep more gak from the other instruments out of those mics.

 

- If it's possible to go direct with a guitar or bass, and assuming you have the extra channels, see if they'll let you do both. This way you can compare the two. You may find, while the tone isn't as good going direct, it's better than all the "other stuff" that may bleed into the mic.

 

- Get any "front facing" amp on stage to face anywhere else! There's only so much SPL a room can take, and lively rooms will saturate sooner. If you're having to push faders high to get over the marshall stack that's on 11 and aimed straight into the crowd, you're not going to enjoy the night (nor is anyone else except the guitar player).

 

- While it varies by room, no matter what PA I've used in the past, it seems right around 125 Hz is where there is often a big nasty hump. Try to find what "low mid" frequencies you're talking about and don't be afraid to try a fairly drastic EQ cut in the area you've identified.

[mikekars]

It depends what you're doing with the compression. If you are compressing vocals using a low threshold and a good bit of make up gain' date=' then you are essentially elevating the backline sound through the PA. That will decrease intelligibility. You may want to switch to using the compressor as a limiter for vocals (no make up gain and put the threshold at just a few dB before clipping and at > 15:1 (or infinite, whatever the highest the compressor has).[/quote']

I had not considered this very carefully. But I can see that if you have a low enough threshold then you are reducing the direct voice at whatever ratio but possibly letting background through without reduction. Whereas setting a higher threshold and simply increasing the voice channel fader would only have that effect when the singer is really belting it out. I think I will have to experiment with that.

 

Other tips.

 

- Use as few open mics as possible. If a player only sings one song the whole time then there's no reason to have the mic open the other 30+ songs.

 

- Consider gating the backing vocals. Each of my band mates sings 1 song a night where they are the lead. I'll gate their vocals when they are just doing "gang backup" work. When they sing lead for their one song I'll take the gate off for just that song. Whether this is practical depends on how much singing everyone is doing. You don't want it to sound gated. You also can really only do this with bands that have reasonable stage volume. If it's too high the gate will either chatter, especially on snare and cymbal hits, or won't open at all because it has to be set higher than the singer is singing so it does no good.

Yeah gates have been tricky for me on anything other than something like toms. I have really messed up vocalists on occasion with gates. If you work with the same group all the time and the backup singer understands what is happening, then OK. But otherwise they think you cut them out of the mix. That is especially true if they just make comments to the crowd at a "normal" voice level between songs.

 

- High Pass Filters - If variable' date=' during the show, keep raising the HPF on the vocals until you can hear the vocal getting too thin, then back it down a bit. You may find you can get to 150 - 200 Hz before noticing. That will keep more gak from the other instruments out of those mics. [/quote']

I will have to play with that one. I typically leave the high pass on vox at 85Hz or so and don't revisit it.

 

- If it's possible to go direct with a guitar or bass' date=' and assuming you have the extra channels, see if they'll let you do both. This way you can compare the two. You may find, while the tone isn't as good going direct, it's better than all the "other stuff" that may bleed into the mic.[/quote']

Another good tip but might fall by the wayside as I am often pressed for time and channels. But maybe if I pre-program both channels into the board I will remember to set that up.

 

 

- Get any "front facing" amp on stage to face anywhere else! There's only so much SPL a room can take' date=' and lively rooms will saturate sooner. If you're having to push faders high to get over the marshall stack that's on 11 and aimed straight into the crowd, you're not going to enjoy the night (nor is anyone else except the guitar player).[/quote']

Strangely, during the event that prompted this post, the bass player came out for the second set and bumped up his volume. Others followed suit and I needed to push up the vocals. The room had not really filled that much but patrons were more animated after a few libations and were up dancing rather than sitting around. The surprising thing was that I felt the sound got cleaner and not as muddy. I don't know whether this is because the dancer's bodies, which were really sort of to the side of the stage, helped that much or whether we finally got well above the somewhat loud acoustic drums. Often times when the volume goes up the sound does get any cleaner, it is just the same muddiness only louder.

 

- While it varies by room' date=' no matter what PA I've used in the past, it seems right around 125 Hz is where there is often a big nasty hump. Try to find what "low mid" frequencies you're talking about and don't be afraid to try a fairly drastic EQ cut in the area you've identified.[/quote']

The cut that seemed most beneficial seemed to be around 250Hz and I did cut that lot on vocals (female) and then also some on most other instruments and even the mains. I think there was still something I could have cut up around 600Hz or so but could not quite get that figured out.

 

 

Thanks for all the great tips. Now if I can only remember half of it!

 

[dboomer]

I agree with all of Sean's tips posted in#2. Basically they all point to the same thing. The only way to get less mud is to put less sound initially into the room. So cut everything you can get away with. That also might mean that you may need to trade tone for articulation. I would add one more tip and that is carefully aim your speakers to try to cover the audience only without hitting the walls, floor or ceiling. Probably tough to do. If you do this type of room often then you might think about using speakers with more narrow patterns instead of more general purpose models.

[DanCostello]

Yeah gates have been tricky for me on anything other than something like toms. I have really messed up vocalists on occasion with gates. If you work with the same group all the time and the backup singer understands what is happening, then OK. But otherwise they think you cut them out of the mix. That is especially true if they just make comments to the crowd at a "normal" voice level between songs.

 

On bar gigs, I'll typically just ride the faders on the bg vocals. It doesn't clean up the reinforcement of the backline through the wedges, but it does clean it up a bit out front. ​Also, you don't need to drop the faders all the way down. 6-10dB ought to do it. Having them on full blast in the wedges means that they probably won't be able to tell that you missed the cue to bring them back in. Heck, IME, you're often better off w/o them anyways.

 

 

[abzurd]

Something else. If you're using effects in the vocals, try going bone dry. Rooms that are giving you thick natural reflections are already giving you a finished product that's wetter than you'd like. Adding more is just silly. Frankly, don't limit that to vocals. Keep the effects out of the drums too and, if at all possible, tell the guitar player to kill the verb if they can. Some will have it built into patches, but some processors have a global setting that allow you to adjust. If they are using stomp boxes, try to get them not to use the verb box if they have one. Sure, some.... probably most, won't listen, but hey at least you tried. If they don't want to cooperate then my counter would be to keep them down in the mix 3-6 dB lower than you'd otherwise have them if you could get a crisp signal. If they are already screamin' loud, I'd not even put them in the mix to begin with.

[mikekars]

Yes the effects such as reverb and delay are the first things I turn off on my end. I never thought to ask the guitarist if they might want to dial back as well. I suppose with a group you work with regularly that might go over. But I think you would have to be pretty tactful to ask a player you don't know that well.

 

Keeping the speakers pointing into the crowd and away from the walls and ceiling is definitely the first line of defense as well. In this particular gig I used only one top speaker (PRX615) over 2x 18" subs. The top speaker was down stage right, pretty close to the wall but pointed 45 degrees or so across the room. This room was about 40' wide and 80 feet long. One of the short walls is all windows as seen in the picture and the rest of the room has paneled walls and ceilings with no dividers.

 

[dbMontana]

Mike, Do you get to work with these bands repeatedly or are most gigs a one-off? Likewise, I don't remember if you normally work one venue (and therefore represent the management) or just go wherever hired. The reason I ask is related to a post I just made on another forum -- edited here:

 

Last weekend I mixed for two different bands -- one in my normal venue and one in a nearby restaurant/bar. I've worked with both these bands several times before and have built up a good trusting relationship such that they both are taking my advice very seriously on reducing stage volume and house bleed -- one guitar through a modeler DI'd to house, minimal backline amps behind shields, drummers with restraint, and two more players on IEMs. In both these gigs the artists (and frankly myself as well) were blown away by how much more I could do for the overall sound when I didn't have to spend so much effort/compromise just to balance FOH against their stage bleed. In both cases the audience and management commented as well. Bottom line is it takes a level of trust between the players and between the players and the sound guy not to mention discipline by "the entire team" to make it work.

 

I'm not trying to lecture here. I get a lot of one-off bands I don't know as well -- along with the normal "battle" over stage volume. That said, my normal venue has received some complaints recently from patrons saying they were leaving because the music was too loud (hey, it wasn't me, I was out of town for work most of August !) so we're doubling down on keeping things under control. When bands are hired they will be receiving a detailed email stating our requirements and an unambiguous notice that we reserve the right to require amp shields at our discretion (I also proposed a shock collar for the drummer but was overruled !) We'll see how it goes. As a hobbyist I only work other venues when/if I want to and only for bands I know and like well so the trust is there already. The venue I mention above at "a nearby restaurant/bar" is very similar to the one in your photo -- hard floor, wood cathedral ceiling, glass behind the band. The band did bring and hang a makeshift acoustic curtain (no Aged, it was NOT fire rated ) to cover the glass but still a VERY boomy room. With self mixed IEMs, a full amp shield on lead guitar, bass DI to house (no amp), and a great drummer "we" did very well and the sound was excellent (if I do say so myself!). I do understand, however, that this is not the usual situation.

[mikekars]

Sounds like you are building a good situation. Sadly for me most gigs are one off and the players don't really seem to have much extra cash or interest in IEM's. Actually in 5 years I have only mixed one band on IEM's and that was only the lead singer and drummer.

 

That being said I am gradually finding myself in the same or very similar situations with venues and band and have taken the lessons from past experiences and applied them. One group in particular hires me whenever they can and there are only so many venues here. But in general people are more open to my suggestions than they were a few years ago. That is probably a combination of me having the confidence to make more suggestions and a gradual level of trust from decent work in the past.

 

[dbMontana]

Sounds like you are building a good situation. Sadly for me most gigs are one off and the players don't really seem to have much extra cash or interest in IEM's. Actually in 5 years I have only mixed one band on IEM's and that was only the lead singer and drummer.

 

That being said I am gradually finding myself in the same or very similar situations with venues and band and have taken the lessons from past experiences and applied them. One group in particular hires me whenever they can and there are only so many venues here. But in general people are more open to my suggestions than they were a few years ago. That is probably a combination of me having the confidence to make more suggestions and a gradual level of trust from decent work in the past.

Mike, just to keep this in perspective, these two bands were the refreshing exception rather than the rule. This evening I have a five piece "alt-country/folk-rock" (their description) band out of Huston TX at my normal venue. I haven't been able to contact them so we'll just have to see how it goes. It's always an adventure!