Members Ambugaton Posted August 25, 2014 Members Share Posted August 25, 2014 Bear with me guys... just trying to get the most out of what I have at the moment. I have the Soundcraft EFX12 and only two channels of GEQ as of now. I want our kick channel to have its own EQ, as well as the mains and monitors. So here is what I am thinking: - Send mains through channel 1 of EQ (no trouble there)- Use an insert cable on the insert of the kick channel going to channel 2 of the EQ- Aux feed the monitors so that they will also have some sort of EQ- Cut all the low frequencies <100hz from the Main/Monitor EQ channel and EQ the kick channel as appropriate Now my only questions are: 1. Although its not preferred... will using the same EQ settings for the mains/monitors be adequate? I feel like there would be too much of a drastic difference between the different brands/size/position of the speakers to narrow down any trouble frequencies. 2. If I use the insert on the kick drum and EQ it like you normally would... there is no way to stop it from going through the other channel of the EQ and ultimately cutting out any low end on that as well... is that right or am I confused? 3. Normally I pan each channel left and run it through the speakers like that... if I pan the kick drum right and use a separate output on the mixer I run into the problem of not having anywhere to feed it to the amp. I have no clue if the QSC GX7 can be in crossover mode(ch 1 LF, ch 2 HF) and have both inputs being used. The manual does state to only put 1 input in when using crossover mode. Of course I could just have the monitors sent without EQ and just hope for the best... Eh, I know i'm annoying but I get a lot more out of this place than any other resource I have found and I appreciate your time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jlb Posted August 25, 2014 Members Share Posted August 25, 2014 Sounds like a real potential CF. Use a separate eq for mains and monitors and your channel strip eq for kick and be done with it. Why the need for a 31 band on the kick? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ambugaton Posted August 25, 2014 Author Members Share Posted August 25, 2014 When I use the channel strip EQ I just don't get the sound that I am looking for. Too many bands are affected by cutting/boosting and I always just either end up with a boomy low end or no low end at all. As of right now we have only really been using our subs for the kick... and if that is all that is coming through them I want it to sound damn good. If I could cut everything on the main EQ below 100hz and have a slight cut at 100-150hz I feel like I would get a much clearer sound out of the mains and subs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Kalina2 Posted August 25, 2014 Members Share Posted August 25, 2014 my friend, I had exactly this problem and did not have on hand the equalizer, but I had a small mixer Alesis 8F X, he replaced me EQ for monitor ..... This is not the best solution, but a simple Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DanCostello Posted August 25, 2014 Members Share Posted August 25, 2014 When I use the channel strip EQ I just don't get the sound that I am looking for. Too many bands are affected by cutting/boosting and I always just either end up with a boomy low end or no low end at all. As of right now we have only really been using our subs for the kick... and if that is all that is coming through them I want it to sound damn good. If I could cut everything on the main EQ below 100hz and have a slight cut at 100-150hz I feel like I would get a much clearer sound out of the mains and subs. Use one channel of the GEQ for your mains and the other for your monitors. Use the channel eq for the kick. While it's possible to muscle your way into "that kick sound" with just gear, it can take a fair amount of gear to do it - gear that you don't have. Instead, you should Work on your drum tuning, your mic placement, and your drummer's technique. Work out those three things and your gear will have to do much less of the heavy lifting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted August 25, 2014 Members Share Posted August 25, 2014 Your proposed solution of inserting a 31 band on kick is not going to be the solution, sorry. IMO, you will end up making the overall worse rather than better. You can not use both inputs of a GX-7 in crossover mode. What speakers are you using? I may be seeing damaged speakers in your future going down this path... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shaster Posted August 25, 2014 Members Share Posted August 25, 2014 Some kicks just don't sound very good, and some sound okay but aren't very conducive to micing. Make sure your source is good, and your mic is good and/or suitable for that particular kick. Would you mind telling us again, what size and make of kick drum, what mic, and what subs you are using? While you're at it, would you please identify what kind of sound you are looking for. If you're going for a metal "click" kick and you're using a boomy drum with a front head,and no hole, miced with a D112 - well it ain't gonna happen... I'm not sure why you can't just use your mains GEQ to tailor the kick sound. Do you have a tympanist in the band that might be impacted? Okay that's a bit cheeky, but you get my drift. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DanCostello Posted August 25, 2014 Members Share Posted August 25, 2014 I'm not sure why you can't just use your mains GEQ to tailor the kick sound. Taking the eq curve used to get the stereotypical "lead kick drum" sound and applying it to the entire mix would sound terrible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Audiopile Posted August 25, 2014 Members Share Posted August 25, 2014 Work on your drum tuning, You made me smile with this... because: As I'm discovering, unless you own the drums, "drum tuning" can be an "interesting" subject. A few months ago I decided to roll-up my sleeves and dive into "drum tuning". I own a middle level Pearl kit, which I used as my "learn to tune drums" kit. I did quite a bit of research, bought a drum tuning aid, and did a lot of experimenting... consumed a few long back-to-back weekends... I'd estimate I put in a couple hundred hours developing "some" drum tuning understanding and arguable skills. The result is that I believe I'm far from an expert on the matter... but I believe I have enough of handle on the subject to "improve over dreadful", and I was successful in getting my Pearl kit tuned to a point that to my ear, it sounds as good or better than many considerably better kits I've worked with. However, since then I've approached this subject with a number of local drummers... and I've come to the conclusion that drummers come in two forms: 1) those who can and do tune their drums 2) those who can't and won't... or "tune their drums" "their way"... being "a way" that wasn't covered in any of my research. Those who can and do are likely amenable to "talking about it"... but there's likely no need to concerning their drum tuning. Those who can't and won't generally, in my experience, turn into venom spitting beasts of the first order at the picture of a shadow of a hint of even meekly suggesting the topic for discussion. Oh, and some of those "tuning my way" methods... I really should write them down before I forget them as I suspect it would make for fairly good reading some day in the future. Most of the methods involved "tuning to feel". I gotta wonder what my bass would sound like tuning the strings "to feel"? Too bad somebody doesn't make drum triggers that look like mics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jlb Posted August 25, 2014 Members Share Posted August 25, 2014 I normally include my drum kit in my price of production. Ninety percent of the time the acts use it because it is tuned so well. For me it's one less headache to deal with if they choose to use the kit.. A clip of a recent show with a really good drummer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shaster Posted August 26, 2014 Members Share Posted August 26, 2014 Taking the eq curve used to get the stereotypical "lead kick drum" sound and applying it to the entire mix would sound terrible. I knew if I didn't qualify that, someone would jump in AFAIK the OP said he is not running bass through the subs - can't tell if that means he is not running bass through the PA or if he is aux feeding his subs. If he is indeed only putting kick in the PA and crossing over at 100hz then many of his trouble low end spots could be out of the way of vocals guitars and so on. If he needs some 63, or needs to dump a little of 125 I don't think he's gonna ruin his vocals. But if he inserts a side of his GEQ and runs monitors without EQ, then it's possible the only person that will be happy is the drummer - and that's if it works. Naturally if he's trying to create something from nothing via his GEQ, then yes it could have negative implications for his overall mix. I've been down the road of trying to add sails to a rowboat when what I've really needed is a sailboat BTW this is different from someone that has a (to them) satisfactory rig and has an extra channel of EQ that they want to throw on the kick. At that point we aren't talking about sacrificing monitor EQ for the kick drum sound - which is what we're talking about here. My suggestion is a new board or another GEQ. Maybe keep the board and just buy GEQs for everything in the mix - of course I'm kidding. Aren't I? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted August 26, 2014 Members Share Posted August 26, 2014 What's the OP using for speakers... anyone think this might be an important piece of information? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shaster Posted August 26, 2014 Members Share Posted August 26, 2014 What's the OP using for speakers... anyone think this might be an important piece of information? I have asked. Also curious about mic, size of kick, and desired outcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ambugaton Posted August 26, 2014 Author Members Share Posted August 26, 2014 I might of figured out a very simple solution to my problem. My problem was that the kick had a very muddy and boomy sound that wasn't defined at all... I cut 100hz about 10db and the problem went away. I noticed that most of the boom was actually going through the mains. This was the only reason I was wanting a separate EQ for the kick. I'm glad I found the problem but ashamed that I didn't realize it sooner. At the house I only had a 57 on hand but was able to get some pretty decent sound out of it on the kick. I am sure it will sound better with an actual drum mic. And @ agedhorse, of course I wouldn't try any questionable configuration without verifying it first! I would have to verify the size of the kick but it doesn't have a head. Sounds deep and thumpy not mic'd, oversaturated and muddy when mic'd... but like I said I think I solved my problem above. The drum tuning discussion... that is interesting, just doing some light reading on that this morning via the drum tuning bible... I don't think our drummer does anything close to what is recommended as far as tuning... I feel like drummers are the most sensitive when it comes to someone telling them to do something different. I wonder how I could bring this up without creating a situation haha. We will see. Thanks again everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators MarkGifford-1 Posted August 26, 2014 Moderators Share Posted August 26, 2014 Too bad somebody doesn't make drum triggers that look like mics. I use an old 57 to trigger my Alesis D4. "036 Studio Kick" has been my "go to" for probably almost 20 years... MG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Audiopile Posted August 26, 2014 Members Share Posted August 26, 2014 I feel like drummers are the most sensitive when it comes to someone telling them to do something different. I wonder how I could bring this up without creating a situation If you come up with a method to break the ice without "making an enemy for life"... I'd be real interested. But then I'd suspect if you've got that level of political chops... you'd easily handle being governor of your state. I doubt you'll get as far as "telling them to do something different", or anything of the sort... as I suspect that if you even use the words "drum" and "tuning" in the same sentence or even in the same relative context of a conversation... the top of their head will explode. I believe if the conversation is seemingly warranted, by definition, it's a moot point as they likely already darn well know they've been blowing off the whole drum tuning thing all along... and getting away with it, and you dropping the slightest hint that direction rats you out. One of the justifications I fielded for "not tuning my drums" was: "If I tuned my drums, then I'd have to tune them like almost every time before I play, and that would be ridiculous." I think of that now every time I tune my bass... which is "every time before I play" and at every break. One of the other justifications I fielded was: "I bought a really expensive set of drums so I don't have to tune them... only cheap drums need tuning." One of the "tuning them my way" methods I fielded was: "I just bring all the lugs up the same number of turns till I get the right bounce out of the head, then I slack one lug all the way off." Another "tuning them my way" method I fielded was: "I tune them when I put on a new head... I finger tighten all the lugs, and then give them one full turn more with a lug key, working around in a circle to keep everything even... that tunes the head to the natural tuning of the shell... I learned that in college." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DanCostello Posted August 26, 2014 Members Share Posted August 26, 2014 If you come up with a method to break the ice without "making an enemy for life"... I'd be real interested. But then I'd suspect if you've got that level of political chops... you'd easily handle being governor of your state. I doubt you'll get as far as "telling them to do something different", or anything of the sort... as I suspect that if you even use the words "drum" and "tuning" in the same sentence or even in the same relative context of a conversation... the top of their head will explode. I believe if the conversation is seemingly warranted, by definition, it's a moot point as they likely already darn well know they've been blowing off the whole drum tuning thing all along... and getting away with it, and you dropping the slightest hint that direction rats you out. One of the justifications I fielded for "not tuning my drums" was: "If I tuned my drums, then I'd have to tune them like almost every time before I play, and that would be ridiculous." I think of that now every time I tune my bass... which is "every time before I play" and at every break. One of the other justifications I fielded was: "I bought a really expensive set of drums so I don't have to tune them... only cheap drums need tuning." One of the "tuning them my way" methods I fielded was: "I just bring all the lugs up the same number of turns till I get the right bounce out of the head, then I slack one lug all the way off." Another "tuning them my way" method I fielded was: "I tune them when I put on a new head... I finger tighten all the lugs, and then give them one full turn more with a lug key, working around in a circle to keep everything even... that tunes the head to the natural tuning of the shell... I learned that in college." This is why I'm very selective about what questions I ask and to whom. I'm not a good enough actor to hide my are-you-really-that-stupid face. -Dan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members trevcda Posted August 26, 2014 Members Share Posted August 26, 2014 I'm not a good enough actor to hide my are-you-really-that-stupid face. That's why I wear mine all the time. It's unsurprisingly easy to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Unalaska Posted August 27, 2014 Members Share Posted August 27, 2014 What is the PA system? Speakers/amps/processing? From what little info has been posted I can only add a few things: drum tuning is most important. A 57 is not a good kick mic. -10db @ 100hz can't possibly make a kick sound good with a well tuned system. Channel strip for individual inputs. 31 band on ALL outputs (left/right/monitors). Aux fed subs? Not for something this small. Keep things simple, overthinking on a small rig will trip you up quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Audiopile Posted August 27, 2014 Members Share Posted August 27, 2014 This is why I'm very selective about what questions I ask and to whom. I'm not a good enough actor to hide my are-you-really-that-stupid face. -Dan. I was initially dumfounded by the type and commonality of reactions I received bringing up the subject. Since then, I've surmised it's likely a fairly simple matter of fear of the unknown combined with a lack of perceived need... "I don't know how, and it seems like a lot of work, and it's not broke so why fix it?" When combined with a band, I suspect it's not really all that apparent to "most"... or many/most have just gotten conditioned to it... accepted the fact that "that" is what paraprofessional local bands sound like... and generally lack of tuning of the drums is not the band's most glaring limiting factor of the self fulfilling "stuck in a local rut" prophesy. I suspect many/most drummers rarely (likely never) has a set of headphones on and PFL's channels while they're playing or critically listens to raw recorded tracks of their individual drums. Unless the problem is so bad that it's outright glaring... eh?... it's "fine"... sort-of. I'll suggest "sort-of", as myself and a couple other local sound guys were discussing this subject last week... the conversation migrated to area drummers we've worked with in the past that did tune their drums. Every one we recalled, the conversation went like this: "Yea, I remember XYZ drummer... yea, his kit always sounded great... what's he doing now?" "Touring with XYZ group." We surmised their seemingly universal success was not a cause and effect strictly because of their attention to the detail of drum tuning, but rather that portion was part of a package deal of attention to a broad range of details (taking their craft seriously). We also universally observed that those drum tuning drummers generally played quieter than "the others". eh... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ambugaton Posted August 28, 2014 Author Members Share Posted August 28, 2014 What is the PA system? Speakers/amps/processing? From what little info has been posted I can only add a few things: drum tuning is most important. A 57 is not a good kick mic. -10db @ 100hz can't possibly make a kick sound good with a well tuned system. Channel strip for individual inputs. 31 band on ALL outputs (left/right/monitors). Aux fed subs? Not for something this small. Keep things simple, overthinking on a small rig will trip you up quickly. Soundcraft EFX12 - DBX 231 - QSC GX5 & GX7 - EV ELX 15s & 18s I have been panning each input all the way left and only using that as my signal... is that what I should be doing? I really have no idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DBR013 Posted September 29, 2014 Members Share Posted September 29, 2014 A trigger would be good and you might think of compressing the kick a little bit to get that oomph and attrack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DBR013 Posted September 29, 2014 Members Share Posted September 29, 2014 A trigger would be good and you might think of compressing the kick a little bit to get that oomph and attack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DBR013 Posted September 29, 2014 Members Share Posted September 29, 2014 A trigger would be good and you might think of compressing the kick a little bit to get that oomph and attack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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