Members RiddimRider Posted July 26, 2014 Members Share Posted July 26, 2014 Every once in a while, I'll see a band perform with their mains placed on stands BEHIND the band. Typically in smaller places, where they are not using floor monitors. While I don't think this is a great idea, it seemed to work fine for the performers, no feedback issues. So, what is the key to making this work without feedback. Is it the speaker dispersion characteristics, or using mics that have very good feedback rejection? Or is it speaker placement? Interested in some thoughts on this approach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Audiopile Posted July 26, 2014 Members Share Posted July 26, 2014 The band I play in has done this quite a bit, and it worked really well for the situations we used it in, which was generally "smaller places". Admittedly we run "pretty good gear" and feedback never was much of an issue... it could have been an issue if we'd have pushed it, and there was a bit of a learning curve, but the learning curve served some very useful purposes. Some of the resulting benefits have been: 1) Removing some of that "disconnect" with how it sounds "out there" that is common with a line of wedges.2) The vocalists improved their mic technique considerably.3) Tightened up the band and improved dynamics and over-all tone.4) Reduced over-all SPL to a more tasteful/civilized level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members trevcda Posted July 26, 2014 Members Share Posted July 26, 2014 I do it on occasion, more often for an acoustic show than electric. In either situation the volume must be very controlled, both from the players and expectations out front. Obviously players dynamics figure heavily into making it work successfully, but if a venue wants it louder out front, you only have so far you can go before physics wins out. I think a combination of things will give you the best chance at success doing this; Good speakers with tight pattern control, good mics with narrow pick up patterns and strong singers with excellent mic technique. In my case I usually use a pair of JBL SR4702X on trees (and a sub) and EV N/D767a mics for all vocals. We are all strong singers that are not afraid to sing directly into the mic. Someone who faint voiced, afraid to hear themselves sing and refuses to get the mic anywhere near the mouth, would not fair well with this set up. Speaker placement is behind the two front vocal mics, usually on each side of the drummer. Ideally aimed more at the room than the vocal positions, but usually not. As I said it can be a double edged sword. Going small and not bringing large gear or monitor systems is nice, but if the party gets going and dictates a louder volume, you're kind of stuck at a certain point. It's too loud for your ears and your on edge of feedback so you really have no where to go. We've been on the edge where we couldn't stray from in front of the mic or it would go into feedback. A good example of the control being exhibited by the equipment being used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dogoth Posted July 26, 2014 Members Share Posted July 26, 2014 I used to setup an open casino cabaret where the house provided "racks & stacks" only. A lot of the bands didn't really have a monitor system because they would usually play in venues that provided one. They would bring their rehearsal PA and do just what you are speaking of (speakers on a stick as back/side fills). It works as long as it's a low volume gig and the placement of the speakers is enough off axis from the mics. The drummer really looses in this situation (often if they had 1 monitor it would go to the drummer). This venue had such a low volume criteria that sometimes our house gear (a VRX setup with subs) wouldn't get turned up at all and their monitors carried the band. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted July 26, 2014 Members Share Posted July 26, 2014 Setting up this way can be an excellent way of integrating the primary sound source (band) with the secondary source (pa). Done well, it can provide a better experience for the audience by bring more cohesive. My primary venue is set up similar to this, it's a fairly high volume situation. The only foh guys who have a problem with this are the same ones who have a problem with every other rig too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Audiopile Posted July 27, 2014 Members Share Posted July 27, 2014 Setting up this way can be an excellent way of integrating the primary sound source (band) with the secondary source (pa). Done well' date=' it can provide a better experience for the audience by bring more cohesive. My primary venue is set up similar to this, it's a fairly high volume situation. The only foh guys who have a problem with this are the same ones who have a problem with every other rig too.[/quote'] Yes... agreed. It can put the frosting on a very intimate/engaged performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shaster Posted July 27, 2014 Members Share Posted July 27, 2014 I've set up my band this way many times - tonight in fact. Smallish room, low volume, one NX55P with the drums, bass, keys, guitar and lead vocal right in front of the speaker. No feedback issues. I've even done it in somewhat loud situations but it's trickier, and you're going to have to EQ out some frequencies that might be considered critical or at least musical. I've been teching an outdoor concert series this summer and have placed the lead vocalist somewhat in front of FOH (due to "stage" and venue issues). They're reassured to hear the mix and consequently relax, and give a good performance. Of course, once you get loud this approach won't work as well, if at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted July 27, 2014 Members Share Posted July 27, 2014 IME most drummers are incapable of playing quietly enough to make this work without resorting to hotrods. Also IME it works great at private parties when they want it kept down anyways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WynnD Posted July 29, 2014 Members Share Posted July 29, 2014 Great drummers don't have a problem playing softly. I know a few that are still using sticks at volume levels where everyone else has long been using brushes. (And they are amazing drummers.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members witesol Posted July 29, 2014 Members Share Posted July 29, 2014 I like to set up my own small band gigs his way, either the mains off to each side with the corners of the horn's pattern hitting my ears or literally behind and up on tall sticks. I will sometimes roll one sub in between the kick drum and bass rig too...nice support without disconnecting it from the original point sources. I run it off an AUX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members StratGuy22 Posted July 29, 2014 Members Share Posted July 29, 2014 Hey Wynn, how is the new band working out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WynnD Posted July 30, 2014 Members Share Posted July 30, 2014 Hey Wynn' date=' how is the new band working out?[/quote'] Birthing this band has been like pulling teeth. Bassist quit because it was the wrong music for him Bassist has heart attack at reheasal Guitarist quit to avoid auditioning bassists Replacement guitarist has a drinking problem Backup bassist was just getting out of the hospital from a pulmonary embolism. Guitarist has decided distance is too far. And on it goes. My Wife refers to this as the band from hell. I think we should re-name it "Join my band and DIE!". (No one has died yet.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted July 30, 2014 Members Share Posted July 30, 2014 Man puttin' a FOG band together sure has it's issues . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Audixmicguy Posted July 30, 2014 Members Share Posted July 30, 2014 We run a three piece classic rock band this way at smaller gigs. Has several benefits, keeps the action on the dance floor not at the bar, no need for wedges, etc. The trick to it is getting the speakers above the mics or ground stack so the Audix OM5s we use don't point straight down the throat of the horns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Pro Sound Guy Posted July 31, 2014 Members Share Posted July 31, 2014 A physical way of delaying the FOH to the back line? I think using a tool to delay the FOH to the back line gives WAY more GBF result. (Ground stack) Not really feasable with a high gain output is it? If the loudspeakers were hanging off a high ceiling that could work. I do not see an advantage for a ground stack placing the loudspeakers behind the band for high output. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members StratGuy22 Posted July 31, 2014 Members Share Posted July 31, 2014 Birthing this band has been like pulling teeth. Bassist quit because it was the wrong music for him Bassist has heart attack at reheasal Guitarist quit to avoid auditioning bassists Replacement guitarist has a drinking problem Backup bassist was just getting out of the hospital from a pulmonary embolism. Guitarist has decided distance is too far. And on it goes. My Wife refers to this as the band from hell. I think we should re-name it "Join my band and DIE!". (No one has died yet.) Crazy!!! Well keep at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted July 31, 2014 Members Share Posted July 31, 2014 Birthing this band has been like pulling teeth. Bassist quit because it was the wrong music for him Bassist has heart attack at reheasal Guitarist quit to avoid auditioning bassists Replacement guitarist has a drinking problem Backup bassist was just getting out of the hospital from a pulmonary embolism. Guitarist has decided distance is too far. Based on everything else, I'd just suggest the whole band switch to dentures already.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shaster Posted July 31, 2014 Members Share Posted July 31, 2014 Man puttin' a FOG band together sure has it's issues . Ya got that right. Just did a gig, where someone had a medical scare and wound up taking their heart meds halfway through the set. I was envisioning ambulance attendants knocking over the mics with their stretcher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WynnD Posted August 1, 2014 Members Share Posted August 1, 2014 Don't think anyone has dentures. The lead vocalist is a petty, interesting 30 something year old woman. She sings well and is fun to work with. So not everything is bad, but the bad things have to stop happening sometime. This is the band with the PA in the backline. Love the volume. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted August 1, 2014 Members Share Posted August 1, 2014 Lost a drummer due to a heart attack at a gig I worked a few years back... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WynnD Posted August 1, 2014 Members Share Posted August 1, 2014 Sorry to hear about that. How was it dealt with? (What do you do when a critical part of a band passes?) And I'm guessing this was a sizable show. (Always picture you doing large gigs. Probably not always true.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cappttenron Posted August 1, 2014 Members Share Posted August 1, 2014 It is rare that you have a smooth running band and if you can be in one feel blessed. Many of the greatest bands fought like cats and dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted August 1, 2014 Members Share Posted August 1, 2014 Sorry to hear about that. How was it dealt with? (What do you do when a critical part of a band passes?) And I'm guessing this was a sizable show. (Always picture you doing large gigs. Probably not always true.) Well, ummm, a memorial service ultimately. 1000 seater, headliner was Sons of Champlin, drummer was from the opener. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members witesol Posted August 1, 2014 Members Share Posted August 1, 2014 Sons of Champlin... I'm jealous Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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