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Unusual PA problem; suggestions needed


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I have a small sound re-enforcement business providing sound for local acoustic groups. I have all the equipment I need to do those jobs, but it's a different story when I am also playing in the band. Most of the band jobs we play are small venues where you can mostly get by without sound. We have discovered however, that we sound much better when mic'd and amped. The issue is that I don't want to be hauling a bunch of sound gear to these small jobs, and we don't make enough money to pay a separate sound engineer. The bands I play in are Bluegrass, and such bands usually just gather around one condenser mic and move in and out as needed. Our problem is that two of our members can not stand and play; they have to sit due to physical limitations. I have the gear to mic everyone for vocals and instruments, but that's really the situation I want to avoid. I also have a couple of condenser mic's that I can use with a small powered mixer (4 input) and think this may be an answer to the situation. My question is this; is the coverage from a condenser mic enough to get both vocals and instruments without getting a lot of unwanted noise? And what about running monitors; do condenser mic's with a directional switch reject enough rear signal input to avoid feedback issues? My goal here is to have the barest bones PA that's easy to transport, but sufficient enough to provide acceptable sound. I really hate to run sound from the stage, but don't see a way to avoid it at this point. Thanks in advance for any suggestions or input.

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There's nothing special about condenser mics and coverage. Mics are simply dumb things and "catch"what you throw at them. Super-cardioid patterns catch less from the sides than cardioids, but they all catch the same from directly in front of them ... Even at a distance. So careful planning will be your friend here.

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You state that two members must sit so it seems clear that they will not be doing the One-Mic-Dance. Placed carefully, you could position one SDC/LDC on each of the sitting members while the other two do the dance. (4 members if I'm guessing right?) The answer on the monitors is "it depends" poor quality wedges and/or mics can cause issues. I'm assuming you're trying to avoid packing around a couple of 31 band EQ's and just want things to work ? You need to set it up and try things out. You might have acceptable success with dynamics too.

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I did a big Bluegrass fest every year for 10 years and I can tell ya they all used monitors and they all want more "me" in the monitors :)

I found that actually hard to believe since these guys just stand around at campsites picking and playing and singing together with no sound and monitors.

I did a real darn good Bluegrass act about 3 weeks ago and they were as anal on monitors as

just about anyone else Rock, Country etc.

They use a central can mic (nice Shure) and one condensor on a stand on either side. Also, they all ran D.I.

which I cant figure out why they bother with the small condensors.

I insert the LD can mic through a 1/3 ocatve Eq just because :)

 

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What FOH speakers, monitors and mixer are you using? What mics are you thinking of using? How many members?

 

Using three to four mics (depending on how many are doing "the dance") could work, but gear, volume and maybe personal tech expertise will play a factor.

 

I've used two or three mcs to cover instruments and vocals, and run monitors, so it can be done. But as always, success or failure will depend on the situation, and expectations.

 

Let us know what you're using....

 

 

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My goal is to keep the amount of gear to a minimum. I have in mind a small powered mixer (4 channel), two FOH speakers, two condenser mic's, and one or two monitors. Since we mostly work without a sound system now, I could see eliminating the monitors if feedback becomes a problem. There are either four or five members depending on who can make it on any given day. Three can be mobile, two cannot. I have more than enough gear to mic everyone including instruments, but then we would be getting into a full blown sound job with mixer and larger amp. Quite honestly, I'm not willing to do all that extra sound work for what we make on the typical job. On bigger jobs (we do get them sometimes) I can justify a full sound setup with my son running it. On those jobs I charge the going rate separately to provide sound. But the majority of our jobs are small, where there is not enough money available to pay separately for sound. So that's the situation I am trying to figure out; even in a small venue, acoustic only is often not loud enough.

 

Thanks again for your suggestions.

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Okay I'm starting to get the picture. I'm thinking that a couple of good or even good sounding mics (like the AT2020 http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/wired_mics/a0933a662b5ed0e2/ ) paired with a 10" or even 12" speaker that has a slightly scooped mid (like the Yamaha DSR or DXR series, or an EV...) paired with a nice little mixer like the Zed 10FX would do the trick nicely. You would put the mics in front of the group as a whole, with some people doing the dance and the seated people just playing louder when it was their solo time. Basically you mix yoursellves just like you're doing now - a true case of sound reinforcement, and very easy to use and set up. Maybe your powered mixer would work as well if it has a sweep mid - might even work without one.

 

The side address mics have that Bluegrass street cred factor and IMO work well in those situations, but other mics could work as well - depending.

 

The mobile folks could even do the reverse dance, and move away from the mics when the seated folks are soloing. Or they could just play quiter when the seated solos come up.

 

 

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I've done a fair amount of bluegrass. One of the first groups that made the "one mic" solution work is Del McCoury. They don't use monitors (or any to speak of - a TINY bit back through side fills but they said they usually do without). Yup groups like David Grisman do want monitors but everything is close mic'd or direct. If a couple of your people can't move then they won't get louder in the mix - period.

 

If you start using seperate mics (short of close micing everything), you will probably just cause yourself a lot of grief due to phase issues. Could the immobile people just dig in a little more when soloing (while the rest of you lay back a bit)? This is the only realistic fix to your problem I can think of (again short of close micing everything and requiring a sound person to ride it all).

 

Such are the tradeoffs of SR :-(

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