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How to perform in large rooms?


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Hello everyone,

I have a problem I'm wondering if anyone else deals with.

So heres the deal. I'm the DJ of a traveling performance group...you can say circus or dance crew or theater group..its all the same. We go to a lot of unique places to say the least.

A lot of these venues are indoor rooms, gymnasiums, halls, cafeterias....schools, prisons...etc. I own two QSC K12 powered PA speakers with the QSC KW181 Subwoofer, I have a 8 channel mixer board, usually running 4 wireless microphones, two hand held and two headset.

I run my music off of two iPods or iPads and mix using djay. Its heavy bass, high energy electronic music, EDM, House, Trance, Dance, Dubstep, Hiphop..etc you get the idea.

And obviously, at these kind of locations, its absolutely unbearable listening to my music with such reverb. Its like nails on a chalk board for 2 hours straight. Even just pure vocals are extremely hard to listen to and understand.

If you've ever been to an indoor pool, you know what I'm talking about and how annoying it can get with kids shouting non stop.

Is there any solution or technique to help with this noise? Is there any deadener to calm the reverb effect? Besides covering the walls in mattresses of course. I personally think its pretty hopeless but I had to ask to be sure.

Any tips, tricks or ideas are much welcomed. Thanks!

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And obviously, at these kind of locations, its absolutely unbearable listening to my music with such reverb. Its like nails on a chalk board for 2 hours straight. Even just pure vocals are extremely hard to listen to and understand.

If you've ever been to an indoor pool, you know what I'm talking about and how annoying it can get with kids shouting non stop.

Is there any solution or technique to help with this noise? Is there any deadener to calm the reverb effect? Besides covering the walls in mattresses of course. I personally think its pretty hopeless but I had to ask to be sure.

Any tips, tricks or ideas are much welcomed. Thanks!

 

Intelligibility would obviously be an issue in those kinds of rooms, but things should not sound like "nails on a chalkboard." That makes me think that there's something else messed up with your setup.

 

-Dan.

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Possible solutions.

1. Do not play rooms like this.

2. Turn the dam system down.

3. Learn to use tone controls.

3. Find someone with good knowledge of sound reinforcement and

have them go through your system and get it sounding right.

Those loudspeakers have the capability to be accurate with

the right pilot in the cockpit.

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Low volume, less bass and more intelligibility all work in your favor. You have to be willing to do whatever it takes to get a good sound and booming bass never works in rooms like this. Are you man enough to do what sounds good and not what feels good?

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About all you can do it use tilters on the speakers to lessen the sound hitting the ceiling and toe them in a bit to get the sound off the walls somewhat. Here's some really cheap tilters, there are better ones that compensate for the center of gravity shift and/or are adjustable:

http://www.directproaudio.com/accessories/stands-truss/speaker-stands/yorkville-sks-adapt15-angle-adaptor-for-speaker-stands

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All of the above. It's a real challenge to get a reflective room to sound decent. The problem is that each "trip around the room" a given bit of sound makes, the muddier it will sound. So to lessen the number of trips you need to lower the energy (lower the volume) of that sound. Then the problem becomes having enough volume for the listeners to hear, or to enjoy the experience (since a lot of what you play is high-energy). Obviously there two needs are at cross purposes.

 

The only thing short of simply lowering volume or somehow acoustically treating the venue would be to employ more speakers around the venue, each delayed as needed and playing at lower volume. This would get the listeners closer to the source, since there would be a speaker nearby. Closer = louder for a given volume level. Of course, the downsides are more gear, way more complexity, difficulties in deploying this in some of the venues, and of course.....cost.

 

 

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I sometimes use a single stack aimed diagonal.rather than speakers both sides

 

A central cluster will almost create far less reverb/echo than a split stack (unless you are very close to it).

 

Of course being very close to it (as Craig suggested above) is the other method. Basically if everyone in your audience had a small system in their lap that would take care of it.

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Intelligibility would obviously be an issue in those kinds of rooms, but things should not sound like "nails on a chalkboard." That makes me think that there's something else messed up with your setup.

 

-Dan.

 

Sorry I wasn't clear. Nothing in my sound, sounds like nails on a chalkboard. I was only using that as an example of how annoying it is to listen to that much reverb.

Outdoors or in a decent location, this system sounds incredible.

 

Possible solutions.

1. Do not play rooms like this.

2. Turn the dam system down.

3. Learn to use tone controls.

3. Find someone with good knowledge of sound reinforcement and

have them go through your system and get it sounding right.

Those loudspeakers have the capability to be accurate with

the right pilot in the cockpit.

 

Solution 1 is not an option. Of course I would prefer not to play in such a room. Prisons down here do not have that kind of option. Its either that or nothing. I and they both prefer something.

2. is kind of a duh, I keep the volume as low as is functional but have you ever tried dancing or getting energy going to a low volume song?

3. Not sure what your referring to here. Is 'tone control' something beyond EQing? Is it an external component?

4(I believe you meant four rather than a second 3 ;) lol I've been doing this for quite some time, there ain't nothing wrong with the setup or the cockpit or the pilot. The system sounds fabulous, you can't imagine the compliments I receive when performing outdoors, these QSCs are outstanding. Blow any other system to mars. Its not about accurate, its about reverb.

 

Low volume, less bass and more intelligibility all work in your favor. You have to be willing to do whatever it takes to get a good sound and booming bass never works in rooms like this. Are you man enough to do what sounds good and not what feels good?

 

Less bass I didn't realize, it always seems like its the high ends that carry in the reverb. When you say 'more intelligibility', what exactly do suggest? The vocals coming through are live and well delivered. In normal venues, they sound great.

That last sentence is right on. Number one thing all Djs need to learn and execute. Not as common as you would hope.

 

About all you can do it use tilters on the speakers to lessen the sound hitting the ceiling and toe them in a bit to get the sound off the walls somewhat. Here's some really cheap tilters, there are better ones that compensate for the center of gravity shift and/or are adjustable:

http://www.directproaudio.com/access...speaker-stands

 

Awesome suggestion. I don't use speaker stands :o I have custom boxes they sit on. Thanks for that!

 

All of the above. It's a real challenge to get a reflective room to sound decent. The problem is that each "trip around the room" a given bit of sound makes, the muddier it will sound. So to lessen the number of trips you need to lower the energy (lower the volume) of that sound. Then the problem becomes having enough volume for the listeners to hear, or to enjoy the experience (since a lot of what you play is high-energy). Obviously there two needs are at cross purposes.

 

The only thing short of simply lowering volume or somehow acoustically treating the venue would be to employ more speakers around the venue, each delayed as needed and playing at lower volume. This would get the listeners closer to the source, since there would be a speaker nearby. Closer = louder for a given volume level. Of course, the downsides are more gear, way more complexity, difficulties in deploying this in some of the venues, and of course.....cost.

 

Very helpful post. Thank you. You understand exactly what I face. Obviously for the high energy choreographies I boost the volume up, sometimes the audience doesn't care so much for definition and clarity and more just want the euphoria and energy, and then for the talking, I drop it down so its understandable and pleasant.

Yeah, unfortunately, that many speakers is not realistic. Travel far to much and all the things you named just make it unrealistic for me.

Thanks again for the informative and intelligent response.

 

I sometimes use a single stack aimed diagonal.rather than speakers both sides

 

Okay, another fantastic suggestion. Will try it out next time.

 

A central cluster will almost create far less reverb/echo than a split stack (unless you are very close to it).

 

Of course being very close to it (as Craig suggested above) is the other method. Basically if everyone in your audience had a small system in their lap that would take care of it.

 

So if I have the two speakers and the one sub (at a way low volume), I would put both speakers in the center of the room, on top of the sub, in front of my mixer and that would help?

 

Someone just suggested to me that putting a blanket or towel over the speaker would deaden the reverb... seems ridiculous to me but heck, I'd give it a go. Whatchall think?

 

Awesome gang, appreciate all the responses! Thank you for your time. :)

 

Dj ?

 

 

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A central cluster will almost create far less reverb/echo than a split stack (unless you are very close to it).

 

Of course being very close to it (as Craig suggested above) is the other method. Basically if everyone in your audience had a small system in their lap that would take care of it.

Yes true also, but for a band a bit tricky

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So if I have the two speakers and the one sub (at a way low volume), I would put both speakers in the center of the room, on top of the sub, in front of my mixer and that would help?

 

Someone just suggested to me that putting a blanket or towel over the speaker would deaden the reverb... seems ridiculous to me but heck, I'd give it a go. Whatchall think?

 

 

 

1 Well first ... lowering the volume will help. The less you start with, the less echo you'll generate.

 

2 If you put both speakers as physically close together as possible then yes you'll create less echo than if they are separated no matter where in the room you put them.

 

3 Putting a blanket over the speaker will only help because of reason #1. You are in effect turning down the volume and as a extra bonus the sound will suck!

 

 

 

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1 Well first ... lowering the volume will help. The less you start with, the less echo you'll generate.

 

2 If you put both speakers as physically close together as possible then yes you'll create less echo than if they are separated no matter where in the room you put them.

 

3 Putting a blanket over the speaker will only help because of reason #1. You are in effect turning down the volume and as a extra bonus the sound will suck!

 

 

 

Got it. Thats some great info. I'm thinking cause its not about volume, I'll just take one speaker to begins with, leave the sub behind and keep it simple.

Awesome, I love that extra bonus, why not? :D lol Also, dboomer, someone said that less bass is better, but I have always thought that it was the high end sounds that carried most in the reverb. Whats your take?

cheers mate, appreciate your input.

 

Dj ?

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So, I'm not a pro sound guy, but the first thing that jumps out at me -- when you set up, do you "ring out the room" with a graphic EQ? Go "check check check" with each slider up all the way (one at a time). For the sliders that make "check" sound ilke "choom", pull that slider down to about -3 to -6dB (use your ears as a guide). The idea here is to find the resonant frequencies of the room, the ones that are really bad, and pull them out of the mix a bit. Shouldn't be more than 2 or 3, don't go crazy.

 

Another thing that you can do that WILL work is to hang heavy theatrical draperies on the walls. Now, I don't know how practical that is, but if this a major production, you might be able to come with some kind of pipe and truss system to get them up in an hour or less. Don't make your own draperies, they need to be fire-rated.

 

How about adding another pair of speakers on poles, and placing them in the audience? You may need a delay for this to work right, I'm not sure how far you can go without a delay. Anyhow, with more speakers, you can turn them up less to get the same coverage.

 

Wes

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Originally posted by WynnD View Post

Low volume, less bass and more intelligibility all work in your favor. You have to be willing to do whatever it takes to get a good sound and booming bass never works in rooms like this. Are you man enough to do what sounds good and not what feels good?

Less bass I didn't realize, it always seems like its the high ends that carry in the reverb. When you say 'more intelligibility', what exactly do suggest? The vocals coming through are live and well delivered. In normal venues, they sound great.

That last sentence is right on. Number one thing all Djs need to learn and execute. Not as common as you would hope.

======================

 

Less bass because most overly live rooms have bass frequencies bouncing all over the place. It's really an overly simplistic suggestion. If you can identify the offending frequencies, notching them down to nearly nothing should help. Turn off the artificial reverb because the room won't need any extra. Intelligibility - OK, I do a lot of general PA jobs where people are speaking and in my age group, those that don't have hearing aids, probably need them anyway. So having enough power out there, without distortion, with a flat frequency response or possibly a slight addition near 3K htz. (The consonants live there and immediately affects the ability of someone to understand what is being said.) And that said, in the older age groups, there is a point where more volume makes intelligibility worse. Kind of like overdriving an amp, but in this case it's overdriving an ear.

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Got it. Thats some great info. I'm thinking cause its not about volume, I'll just take one speaker to begins with, leave the sub behind and keep it simple.

 

 

Wait a minute! You don't want to have too little rig for the gig. The last thing you want is to puch your speaker(s) too hard because you are not using a sub, and/or only one speaker. Then you've got limiting or distortion messing with your mix.

 

I've done sound in a fair bit of ugly shool gyms. My suggestions are:

 

1. Keep the speakers oriented at the ears of the audience, tilted down if that makes sense (ie. so they're aren't bouncing off the floor).

2. Toe them in so they aren't hitting the back wall (also see below).

3. Have the speakers close to the stage, Sometimes, in a large room, people set the speakers up in the corners and toe them in - I have found, in reverb heavy halls, this doesn't work as well as having them closer to the audience (and you can still toe them in a bit).

4. Check your frequncies.. If 6.3k seems to be bouncing around more than others, pull that down. Sometimes a bit of sacrifice in one or two frequencies can help the overall sound.

5. For dance concerts, I've even put the sub on the stage - but lowered the volume considerably! The dancers can now feel the bass, but the room isn't awash in sub boom. Even just a speaker on stage can do the trick.

6. The other thing to consider is choosing "long throw" speakers. Now we've had plenty discussions here, that that's a misnomer, but what I mean is either a line array, or speakers with a large horn that can carry more mid info and thus, because of the horn, perhaps project more sucesfully than the woofer.

 

I have had success using the three following speakers in gyms and fundraisers. I am not saying you have to go out and get them, just giving examples..

The first speaker Yorkville e210. http://www.yorkville.com/loudspeakers/elite/product/e210/ Something about the way the two 10" speakers work with the horn makes them "project" further than others I have tried.

The second is the Yorkville EF500P. http://www.yorkville.com/loudspeakers/elite/product/ef500p/

The third is the very inexpensive Yorkville YX15P. That particular horn "projects" very well and of course, that means you aren't creating a ton of "near field" volume that only results in near field gack.

 

So check your gear, check your speaker placement, check your volume and EQ, and then find the balance between energy from volume and energy from a good sounding production. It's near the middle - somewhere...

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Obviously, you can't treat each venue for reflections prior to the show... but as suggested, you can make adjustments to drop the offending frequencies in the mix/venue equation. The problem is... once you cut one frequency and raise the volume again you've typically got another to deal with. In my experience with venues like this, the suggestions related to using a single point source (one stack in the corner or with tops over a sub in the center of the audience dispersing as much of a 360 degree pattern as you can) will unmuddy things considerably and probably mean that you can run at a lower overall volume, especially if the audio is in the center of the audience. As someone pointed out, placing a tiny personal speaker in everyone's lap isn't practical, but with venues like this that's exactly the effect that I would shoot for... maximum coverage, but with as low a volume as you can get away with while minimizing reflections. A tough nut to crack... good luck!

 

My $.02.

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