Reverb in Monitors Strategy

[mikekars]

I understand the good reasons to NOT put any reverb in the stage monitors:

- can muddy the stage mix and make it harder for individual voices/instruments to cut through

- can possibly make it harder for singer to sing on key

- can potentially lower GBF in monitors

- may use up mixer / rack resources

- probably other reasons I am forgetting

 

Given that many singers, acoustic guitar players, and even horn players still ask for reverb in the monitor. I suppose it makes their foldback sound more "natural" and/or pleasing.

 

So I am inclined to provide reverb in the monitor when the artist asks for it, especially outdoors. But I would like to come up with a strategy for this that works for them and me. Putting potential feedback problems aside and just focusing on a lead singer - is there a good general approach to this that will give them what they want while minimizing the bad side effects pointed out above?

 

To some extent this begs the question - what is it the singer really wants when they ask for reverb in their monitor?

- I think it is because they want to sound "good" to themselves on stage; rich and full, not dry and thin.

 

The first thing I try is to get them to hold off on reverb in monitors until I bring them up in all the stage monitors that request their vocals - that seems to create some thickening and "reverb" like sound by itself.

 

After that, if they still want reverb is a "reverb" effect the only way to do this?

 

- Is some sort of EQ on the monitor going to do it?

-- I could "warm up" the monitor with a slight boost in the low mids but is there something more sophisticated?

 

- Would a short delay effect - like a 50ms slap back with no repeats give them the fullness they are looking for?

-- My thought is this might be "cleaner" and less prone to muddy the stage mix but I don't know.

 

- Could a slight "chorus" effect work?

-- or can that really throw them off key?

 

If an actual "reverb" effect is the best (of least problematic) answer, then are there some settings that might minimize undesirable side effects?

- For example, should the pre-delay be set to zero

- should the short reflections be emphasized and the reverb tail be minimized

- is there a way to optimize a stereo reverb for mono presentation?

-- I have stereo reverb efx on the X32 but can only conveniently send 1 side of that to a mono monitor

-- does a mono reverb even sound good?

[Shaster]

In some ways, this is like discussing the best way to get mugged. However I suppose this request could be a sort of, my way or the highway scenario. Apparently there is a well known singer that likes his monitors drenched in reverb, and gets it because of his stature (hint - his last name translates to church, in English).

 

I personally don't like reverb in the monitors, even as a musician on stage but that's me. But if you're going to use reverb, I would roll off the lows and low mids, avoid an overly long one, and of couirse use as little as possible. This might mean using a dedicated FX just for the monitors which seems silly, but I guess if it means keeping a gig...

 

As for your other suggestions, some of them might work I suppose, but I'm getting queasy just discussing this, so I'l let others chime in

 

Good luck.

[agedhorse]

Less is more.

[Scodiddly]

As a singer it's nice to hear your voice delayed/thickened/whatever. Feels like you've got other voices helping you out.

 

I generally try to get the mics up in the house before adding reverb to wedges - the extra ambience is often enough to make most people happy.

[mikekars]

I agree that reverb in the monitors should be avoided if possible and that when you do provide it, the less the better. Yet I get this request continually, even from singers that have some degree of commercial success. So it is not just the inexperienced ones that want it. I am just trying to figure out the best way to give them what they want and limit the negative side effects.

 

I do roll off the reverb at 100Hz and 6kHz with shelf filters. Not sure if those are good knees or not?

 

As to bringing up the house and the reverb, in the house, that is helpful. Especially with Reggae type acts that like tons of long reverb tails.

 

Unfortunately I typically just let the muso's instruments into the FOH during sound check and keeping all voices just in the monitors. I listen in on the heaphones in order to have a "private" conversation with them to get things dialed in. Typically there is background music and some MC making announcements or starting a limbo contest or something to engage the crowd. The "private" sound check is a little harder to do but seems much less invasive and annoying to the patrons.

 

Does any one have any experience using a short, thickening type delay when the singer asks for reverb in the monitor?

[sibyrnes]

Does any one have any experience using a short' date=' thickening type delay when the singer asks for reverb in the monitor? [/quote']

 

If they ask for reverb, give them reverb. It's not a big deal. I don't do it unless asked, but it's never been a problem. I think the problem with reverb causing feedback is greatly exaggerated and with good equipment and proper(less is better) EQ, feedback should not be an issue.

 

[monthlymixcd]

 

If they ask for reverb, give them reverb. It's not a big deal. I don't do it unless asked, but it's never been a problem. I think the problem with reverb causing feedback is greatly exaggerated and with good equipment and proper(less is better) EQ, feedback should not be an issue.

 

 

Ditto. I typically use the extra fx engine on my MX200 (using one of the milder verb effects) and a spare mixer channel and then just assign as much of that to the requesting singer's monitor mix as they require... usually not much.

[Dogoth]

I generally try to get the mics up in the house before adding reverb to wedges - the extra ambience is often enough to make most people happy.

 

What he said.

 

Often the ambience from the room plus the FX from the room will suffice. If you MUST.....use it sparingly and short times. A couple of things to keep in mind is it MUST be a dedicated reverb (not a return from the FOH FX) and there is no post anything from an aux so you will have to change the ratio manually if the monitor level gets changed to keep the ratio the consistent. also it requires a unit and an extra aux for each mix so if multiple people want reverb it can become unwieldy really fast. Trying to share a single reverb unit onstage across multiple mixes makes some voices correct and others either too wet or too dry depending on the mix (it never works out right). IMO it's a pain that should be avoided if possible. Of course some times.............

 

I always try and be tactful and avoid it if possible. As Scodiddly said "often the room + FX will create the needed ambiance and avoid the need (always try this first).

 

[wesg]

"A couple of things to keep in mind is it MUST be a dedicated reverb (not a return from the FOH FX)"

 

Why? I use the stereo returns on my Mackie Onyx 4-bus mixer coming back from an MX400. I send reverb from there to aux 1, aux 2, and FOH with separate knobs. As little as possible out to aux 1 and aux 2, mind you...

 

The only thing that's annoying about that set up I can't send myself (aux 3) tape delay, which I use on my keys in one song. So I listen real hard to the other monitors for my timing. I'd rather do that than lose a channel strip.

 

BTW, any of guys using reverb on *drums*? I'd like to do that 80s drum sound on a couple of tunes (e.g. New Girl Now). Guess I probably also need to run them through a gate.

 

Wes

[mikekars]

"A couple of things to keep in mind is it MUST be a dedicated reverb (not a return from the FOH FX)"

 

Why? I use the stereo returns on my Mackie Onyx 4-bus mixer coming back from an MX400. I send reverb from there to aux 1, aux 2, and FOH with separate knobs. As little as possible out to aux 1 and aux 2, mind you...

 

Wes

 

I think you want a seperate reverb from FOH because normally the FOH reverb varies with the channel faders. So if you bump up an acoustic guitar for a solo and that is also being sent to the FOH reverb engine, the FOH reverb goes up for that channel. That is normally what you want. But if that reverb return is also going to your monitor you have now increased the acoustic guitar's reverb in the monitor. That alone is usually undesirable. But also, if the acoustic guitar send to the monitor is pre-fader, you have also changed the ratio of reverb to dry signal in the monitor.

 

I set up a separate reverb just for monitors that is "pre-fader" so that once you set it there will not be changes related to FOH fader levels. Anyone that wants reverb on their voice or instrument in the monitors gets their pre-fader signal sent to that efx engine and the efx return is sent to the monitor in whatever amount they wish as you set up the monitor mix. The catch here is that there is only one monitor efx engine set up and only one return. This can lead to a situation where a singer, for example, wants their voice in their monitor and they want some reverb. But the singer does not want any acoustic guitar. Unfortunately since the acoustic guitar player wanted guitar and reverb in their monitor, the efx return will contain guitar reverb. So the singer gets no raw acoustic guitar as they wished, but they do get the guitar reverb tails. So far with only mild reverb in the monitors this scheme has worked OK but if you were sending a long delay effect you could see how it might be a problem.

 

The "right" way to do it is to have a separate efx engine for each monitor that wants reverb. This burns up a lot of resources and is yet another reason not to do it or at least keep the efx as mild as you can.

[Dogoth]

 

I think you want a seperate reverb from FOH because normally the FOH reverb varies with the channel faders. So if you bump up an acoustic guitar for a solo and that is also being sent to the FOH reverb engine, the FOH reverb goes up for that channel. That is normally what you want. But if that reverb return is also going to your monitor you have now increased the acoustic guitar's reverb in the monitor. That alone is usually undesirable. But also, if the acoustic guitar send to the monitor is pre-fader, you have also changed the ratio of reverb to dry signal in the monitor.

 

I set up a separate reverb just for monitors that is "pre-fader" so that once you set it there will not be changes related to FOH fader levels. Anyone that wants reverb on their voice or instrument in the monitors gets their pre-fader signal sent to that efx engine and the efx return is sent to the monitor in whatever amount they wish as you set up the monitor mix. The catch here is that there is only one monitor efx engine set up and only one return. This can lead to a situation where a singer, for example, wants their voice in their monitor and they want some reverb. But the singer does not want any acoustic guitar. Unfortunately since the acoustic guitar player wanted guitar and reverb in their monitor, the efx return will contain guitar reverb. So the singer gets no raw acoustic guitar as they wished, but they do get the guitar reverb tails. So far with only mild reverb in the monitors this scheme has worked OK but if you were sending a long delay effect you could see how it might be a problem.

 

The "right" way to do it is to have a separate efx engine for each monitor that wants reverb. This burns up a lot of resources and is yet another reason not to do it or at least keep the efx as mild as you can.

 

Exactly!

 

For some reason the new system doesn't show you which threads you're actively participating in so, sorry I missed replying myself. I'm guessing it's another bug being fixed :-).

[Dogoth]

 

I think you want a seperate reverb from FOH because normally the FOH reverb varies with the channel faders. So if you bump up an acoustic guitar for a solo and that is also being sent to the FOH reverb engine, the FOH reverb goes up for that channel. That is normally what you want. But if that reverb return is also going to your monitor you have now increased the acoustic guitar's reverb in the monitor. That alone is usually undesirable. But also, if the acoustic guitar send to the monitor is pre-fader, you have also changed the ratio of reverb to dry signal in the monitor.

 

I set up a separate reverb just for monitors that is "pre-fader" so that once you set it there will not be changes related to FOH fader levels. Anyone that wants reverb on their voice or instrument in the monitors gets their pre-fader signal sent to that efx engine and the efx return is sent to the monitor in whatever amount they wish as you set up the monitor mix. The catch here is that there is only one monitor efx engine set up and only one return. This can lead to a situation where a singer, for example, wants their voice in their monitor and they want some reverb. But the singer does not want any acoustic guitar. Unfortunately since the acoustic guitar player wanted guitar and reverb in their monitor, the efx return will contain guitar reverb. So the singer gets no raw acoustic guitar as they wished, but they do get the guitar reverb tails. So far with only mild reverb in the monitors this scheme has worked OK but if you were sending a long delay effect you could see how it might be a problem.

 

The "right" way to do it is to have a separate efx engine for each monitor that wants reverb. This burns up a lot of resources and is yet another reason not to do it or at least keep the efx as mild as you can.

 

Exactly!

 

For some reason the new system doesn't show you which threads you're actively participating in so, sorry I missed replying myself. I'm guessing it's another bug being fixed :-).