Members elliem Posted April 19, 2014 Members Share Posted April 19, 2014 Hi, I am a singer/keyboard player and perform solo gigs mainly pubs, I have this PA - Samson expedition xp308i - http://www.samsontech.com/samson/products/portable-pa/expedition/xp308i/ I also have a small active monitor. Some of the pubs I play are really loud and I can't get enough volume without it feeding back, when I play music through my ipod in the ipod dock it is much louder though? I am using a shure sm58, and a roland rd 64 keyboard. Will I have to buy a whole new system? Appreciate all advice, thank you! Ellie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members OneEng Posted April 19, 2014 Members Share Posted April 19, 2014 Your iPod is never going to feed back so you can turn up the volume more. Start with speaker placement. Your speakers should be a minimum of 3 feet in front of your microphones facing directly out (not tilted inward) toward the audience. Next, your monitor speaker can be causing you a great deal of issues. Make sure your monitor is directly behind your mic pointed up at the back of the SM58. The SM58 is a Cardioid pattern mic so it has a "blind spot" directly behind it. See this example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardioid In this link the mic would be facing to the left and your monitor speaker would be on the right also facing to the left. Lastly, it has been my experience that the SM58 simply feeds back sooner than some other microphones in the same general use and price category. My favorite is the EV ND767a. I can get significantly more volume before feedback with this mic than a set of SM58's. It is a mic that works well if you stay right on it when you sing. If you have inconsistent distance to the mic (wave your head around when you sing), this mic wouldn't be a good idea. Give that a try and see what you get first. Speaker placement is the easiest thing to fix. Everything else is going to cost you a bit of money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted April 19, 2014 Members Share Posted April 19, 2014 There is going to be a limit to how much volume you will ever be able to get before getting feedback Feedback is simply the sound from the system getting back into the mic at the same or higher level then it originally went into the mic on a frequency by frequency basis. You may be able to EQ out some particular frequencies that trigger it, preferably with a parametric EQ or a feedback eliminator. How much improvement you'll get depends on how out of balance it is in your situation. The physical constraints of you venue are also a limitation. If you have a short ceiling height or your mic is close to a wall then that will be your limit. You'll probably notice that you don't have problems if you play in a theater with a 30 foot ceiling or out of doors. Best tip for free improvements is aim your speakers away from the live side of your mic and to put your lips directly on the grille of the mic. The difference in gain before feedback between lips on the grille and 2" away is probably a factor of four or more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cappttenron Posted April 20, 2014 Members Share Posted April 20, 2014 I noticed when I switched to beta 58s I had less feedback problems. Might want to try that also placement of monitor and speaker is critical in small bars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Pro Sound Guy Posted April 20, 2014 Members Share Posted April 20, 2014 A Hyper Cardiod Mic will give you more gain before feedback.The SM58 is Unidirectional Mic.Example would be an EV N D967 to get more gain before feedback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WynnD Posted April 20, 2014 Members Share Posted April 20, 2014 High pitched feedback is usually the monitors. Lower pitched feedback is more likely the FOH. None of this is absolute, but I can vouch that just backing off of the band is the quickest way to get better sound without feedback. But if you're playing with a bunch of musicians who can't restrain themselves, you will always have feedback. (No matter how loud the system goes.) My former bandmates were frustrated at not being louder and the amps were hitting the limiters and occasional feedback. (We had managed to fry the JBL's horn drivers earlier in the year.) While they changed PA system, got the volume up another 10 db and guess what? They still have feedback. (And no restraint.) So glad I'm not there anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Pro Sound Guy Posted April 20, 2014 Members Share Posted April 20, 2014 Wynn...did you read the guys post? He is a solo act man with a single monitor. Hellooooo McFlyyyyy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted April 20, 2014 Members Share Posted April 20, 2014 A Hyper Cardiod Mic will give you more gain before feedback. That's dangerous talk . Sometimes it's true, but sometimes it make is worse. You just can't make a statement like that without specifics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members FormerlyBassred Posted April 20, 2014 Members Share Posted April 20, 2014 Feedback is all about placement. Super and Hyper-cardioid mics have a small lobe of pickup to the rear, so they are not a cure-all (and any mic will feedback if the diaphragm is open to the speaker - thus causing the loop of sound coming out of the speaker to enter the microphone and the cycle begins. . . ) That is a pretty simple unit without input gain that is really adjustable - are you using the 'mic' setting? The 'Line' setting will drastically cut the input signal to the mixer. Have you tried turning the Master up and just running the ipod at a lower volume? Not sure how helpful this is. Looks like the unit is just simply too small for some of the rooms you are playing (if they are really that loud) - besides the power ratings of some cheaper brands being inflated (we picked up a Behringer powered mixer for our jam room and it can barely get enough volume for an acoustic rehearsal... regardless of its huge power rating on the marketing data - I have been nice and have not told my drummer 'I told you so' yet).... I don't know what to tell you.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members OneEng Posted April 20, 2014 Members Share Posted April 20, 2014 Since he is able to get the volume he wants with DJ music, it would appear that the issue he is having live is that the feedback is limiting the volume he can achieve ...... rather than the system simply not having the umph to put out the sound. Don is correct. In theory, simply using any hyper or super cardioid microphone will not necessarily fix feedback problems. Using an OM7 or ND767a in specific will get you more volume than a SM58 will. I have tested this under several stage setups and found it to be repeatably true. It is possible that there is a situation that this ISN'T true for, but I haven't found one. Even having the monitor directly behind the mic ..... which should favor the SM58's pickup pattern which has a null at the rear of the mic still results in getting more volume from both an ND767a and an OM7. The OM7 is the ultimate in feedback rejection; however, I like the tone of the ND767a more. I would work with the speaker placement (both monitor and mains) as well as Don's suggestion to stay directly on the microphone first to see how far this can get you. Next, I might try a different microphone, then finally a feedback eliminator for the monitor send. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted April 20, 2014 Members Share Posted April 20, 2014 That's dangerous talk . Sometimes it's true' date=' but sometimes it make is worse. You just can't make a statement like that without specifics.[/quote'] Agreed, and then there is also the reflected sound back into the front of the mic that can be a liming factor as well. Hard walls, cowboy hat, face all can present a reflective surface at some frequencies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted April 20, 2014 Members Share Posted April 20, 2014 Don is correct. In theory' date=' simply using any hyper or super cardioid microphone will not necessarily fix feedback problems. Using an OM7 or ND767a in specific will get you more volume than a SM58 will. I have tested this under several stage setups and found it to be repeatably true. [\quote'] That would be called anecdotal information and again not true in every case. Feedback is a "system" problem so weather one mic or another works better depends on the rest of the system ( including physical layouts, not just the gear). And as Andy mentioned walls and hats. The OM7 is the ultimate in feedback rejection; however . Not even close to what you could get using a Crown CM 310 or 311. They will be 10 dB better in most cases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WynnD Posted April 21, 2014 Members Share Posted April 21, 2014 Wynn...did you read the guys post? He is a solo act man with a single monitor. Hellooooo McFlyyyyy... After I responded, I looked at the link and thought to myself, if he's getting feedback with that, he needs some serious restraint!!!!! Otherwise, he will have feedback forever. My current project is running the FOH in the backline and I can be within 2 feet of the satellites without any feedback and we're running a full band with the e-drums and keyboards and vocals running through it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted April 21, 2014 CMS Author Share Posted April 21, 2014 Wynn, I don't think restraint will help him get over the loud pub environments he said were the reason he *sometimes* needs to be louder. We're not talking about a lot of volume to begin with, since the Expedition isn't exactly a hard-pounding system. Elliem, where are you positioning the speakers relative to you and the mic? If you're putting them behind you, this might be a factor limiting how loud you can get before feedback (Gain Before Feedback, or GBF). If you need to hear yourself, it might help to place one speaker behind you somewhat, and the other can be in front of your position. You could also place both speakers in front, and add a small powered speaker as a foldback, placed on the floor in front of you. Be careful not to have your mic positioned such that the back of the mic is aimed directly at the speaker...many mics have a "tail" of higher sensitivity directly behind them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted April 21, 2014 Members Share Posted April 21, 2014 Wynn' date=' I don't think restraint will help him get over the loud pub environments he said were the reason he *sometimes* needs to be louder.[/quote'] Well, if no one shows up to your gigs, then the pub isn't ever going to be that loud. And if you perform in a manner conducive that sort of quiet environment, you'll probably struggle to ever draw more than a very tiny crowd. Self-fulfilling prophecy, perhaps..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Louis Schwartz Posted April 21, 2014 Members Share Posted April 21, 2014 Wynn, I don't think restraint will help him get over the loud pub environments he said were the reason he *sometimes* needs to be louder. We're not talking about a lot of volume to begin with, since the Expedition isn't exactly a hard-pounding system. Elliem, where are you positioning the speakers relative to you and the mic? If you're putting them behind you, this might be a factor limiting how loud you can get before feedback (Gain Before Feedback, or GBF). If you need to hear yourself, it might help to place one speaker behind you somewhat, and the other can be in front of your position. You could also place both speakers in front, and add a small powered speaker as a foldback, placed on the floor in front of you. Be careful not to have your mic positioned such that the back of the mic is aimed directly at the speaker...many mics have a "tail" of higher sensitivity directly behind them. I don't know where the OP has gone, but he does say that he has a small powered monitor that he uses with the Expedition, so I assume his problem is a combination of how he's placing that in relation to his mic and of some things about the room and his placement of the FOH speakers of the Expedition that's causing sound to bounce back into his mic--and of course EQ might also help. I hope he comes back with some more details about the physical situation and his speaker and mic placement so people can be more helpful. Louis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members twostone Posted April 21, 2014 Members Share Posted April 21, 2014 Where are you located at ? maybe a forum member is close by and can come and help you out. I had a forum member here that lives not far from me come and help me out a few times. Always nice to have a more experienced and knowledgable live sound person come and give you some hands on advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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