Members Kyhoops Posted April 18, 2014 Members Share Posted April 18, 2014 Hello everyone. Jeff here from Hampton VA.. I know there have been threads on here about this mixer amp before, but didn't want to hijack a thread. My band plays small bars in the area to about 100 people, 150 on a good night. We run sound from the stage. We are a 4 piece classic rock band doing all covers. I have a few questions, but first ill list all our gear. Peavey XR8600D powered mixer (2) Yamaha 15' club series mains on stands (2) Yamaha 12' club series monitors + (1) 12' Optimas pa speaker (on the drummer) mics in my bag- (1) shure beta 58(1) sm58 (1)audix om5 (1)senhisser e945 (2) ev 767 Bass Player- 1000 watt Harkie 4x10 Rhythm- peavey classic 30/ also Martin acoustic electric thu PA Lead- 100watt all tube Mesa Boggie amp Drummer- big Ludwig kit (loud as hell) First off in a smallish room, should the amps be mic'ed up? 2nd , should the drums be mic'ed up? If so how much micing should the drums get? I'm a little shot on channels as I want each member(4) to have a mic for vocals + (1) for acoustic guitar. 3rd, can I find a small 4 or 5 channel passive mixer for the drum mic's to only have (1) send to the mixer? He does have a drum mic kit . 4th, do I need a sub? How would I set a sub up with this system? Would the sub be best amp + passive, or powered? I have more questions, but for now this is where I'm at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted April 18, 2014 Members Share Posted April 18, 2014 This is probably a better time to upgrade to what you really need rather than a half-assed fix. If you are thinking about adding a sub, need more channels, perhaps have been thinking about an additional monitor mix, this is the time to look at an upgrade that would make your life easier, more convenient and get you better results. This might involve selling what you have now to a band that does not have the same needs as you are groing into. Sometimes, it pays to look ahead at the bigger picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Axisplayer Posted April 18, 2014 Members Share Posted April 18, 2014 Jeff, Andy is right. This is the cross roads where you either stay small or decide to get what it takes to do the job at the next step up. Smaller clubs might be OK with what you have, but as you move up the food chain to Saddle Ridge, Hoss's Deli, Steel Horse, etc. you will find that it takes a reasonably large system to do the job right. Even the Cactus takes a good bit more than the scale you are at. Yea, I know the local clubs because I live in Yorktown and spent the last 10 years running sound in those places... Don't know who you are or what music style you play, so these may not be your clubs of choice. They will still be the benchmark of bands in the area, because they are where the people are going to hear music, and if you want to make money, you will be targeting them before you know it. If you are really looking to move up, drop me a note. I just hit my 60's and am retiring. Lots of my gear is going on the block because it is time for me to slow down...but I have been around the block a few times and have some idea what I am talking about. A little anyway.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Kyhoops Posted April 18, 2014 Author Members Share Posted April 18, 2014 Thanks for the advice guys. Axisplayer, so far we have played Mugzys and The Turtle. We have a gig on the 13th of June at The Checkered Flag. At Mugzys we where fine. At The Turtle we used another bands rig (Fortress) that we opened for. With all the passive cabinets I got I would like to stay passive. Maybe upgrade to a bigger board + amps + crossover + subs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cappttenron Posted April 19, 2014 Members Share Posted April 19, 2014 I think now its easy to pick up a nice used passive mixer and amp and let the powered mixer go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members happwith12strin Posted April 19, 2014 Members Share Posted April 19, 2014 1. In a smallish room, mic the amps? No. You have a 100 watt Mesa Guitar amp..should already be loud in a small room 2.Should the drums be mic'd in a smallish room? No. You say the drummers kit is already loud. Maybe mic the kick drum via a powered sub and crossover, if the kick drum is not loud enough. 3. Yamaha mg102c $100 or similar. 4. Do I need a sub? Your bass player has a 1000 watt hartke 4x10. Maybe just one powered sub, since the bass player has 1000 watts. (in a smallish room) I suppose you could get an additional small mixer maybe a yamaha mg10c mixer for $100. And one powered sub, two if you have more money. Or a power amp and passive sub(s). Maybe a passive Peavey 15" sub. Remember you have to lug the subs around..15's are a little lighter. Four vocals and an accoustic pretty much is all you should put in to your current pa right now. I would look at what the gigs pay and your chances of finding bigger gigs before buying a bigger system. The other consideration in bigger cities, bigger places already have a pa, so you would not need one..maybe your players would only need direct boxes. I would also look at your band members commitment level. Be real about the bands musical ability to move up to bigger gigs right now..maybe your good eneough...maybe not..are you drawing crowds by yourself? As far as moving up to a 300-500 person room..you are looking at a bare minimum of: One biggish power amp for 2 subs , one regular sized power amp..one monitor amp, a 16 channel mixer, a crossover.. a dual 31 band graphic equalizer (maybe a peavey that lights up the offending frequency), maybe a Lexicon outboard effects unit mx550..mpx ect..if the mixers effects are not good eneough for your tastes...its going to cost a lot of money...passive used stuff is cheaper if you can find it and it works. Crown power amps are very good. You would consider micing the drums in bigger rooms, and want subs in bigger rooms...but remember they may already have a pa system... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Axisplayer Posted April 19, 2014 Members Share Posted April 19, 2014 With all the passive cabinets I got I would like to stay passive. Maybe upgrade to a bigger board + amps + crossover + subs? Entirely possible. I am not a fanboy of powered cabs, even though I own some. My system was all passive. As long as you are warming up for others, you will be fine with what you have. Also, your club rotation doesn't need a lot more, although you do need subs. As you move up on the local circuit however, you will need to consider a more substantial system. You will find almost zero club provided systems in this entire metropolitan area of over 1M people. I know of two clubs: one all metal, one all country. Don't rely on amps to fill the room. Guitar amps are beamy and turning then up only makes you sound like amateurs. As you know, lots of big systems in this area, even for the low paying gigs. $30K systems for $1K gigs sounds about right. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Kyhoops Posted April 19, 2014 Author Members Share Posted April 19, 2014 Thanks for the input from all. Think I'll start looking for passive board with more channels,amps,crossover,eq,ect.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Kyhoops Posted April 19, 2014 Author Members Share Posted April 19, 2014 If I where to start with a passive sub and amp. What would be a good setup with the Peavey head till I get the other gear. The peavey has a main out after eq. Is there an amp made with a built in crossover? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Axisplayer Posted April 19, 2014 Members Share Posted April 19, 2014 Crown XTI series is inexpensive and has crossover, as well as other DSP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Pro Sound Guy Posted April 20, 2014 Members Share Posted April 20, 2014 When I retire from music and sound is when I die Look at the Stones arent they dead? Whoops not yet! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Axisplayer Posted April 20, 2014 Members Share Posted April 20, 2014 I retired not because I am tired of music, but because of two other things that impact booking shows.... 1) I am too old to safely move all the gear by myself. The shows I did required big gear, and I cannot move the big gear anymore. I had a helper that was very reliable but he got an offer to go full time as a nuclear inspector starting at $75k a year...and he took it. It was the right move for him, and I am glad he did. He was 20 years old with a major career offer on the table.2) I retire in a year from my day job, have an 11 year old son that we home school, and the family wants to get in an RV and just travel for a few years, so we are. No strings to hold us back, enough money and time to do it, and no where we have to be on schedule. That is WHY I worked hard for the last 40 years...Time to go enjoy life other ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members twostone Posted April 20, 2014 Members Share Posted April 20, 2014 For box mixer application your best bet is to leave the drums and bass out of the mix and just guitar and vocals , because the drums and bass will rob your amp's power. For small bar rig might consider a pair of JBL PRX 710s and PRX 718XLF and SL 1602 mixer or DL 1608 mixer would be small light weight, compact and sound quality that will surpass big time on what you got now. Later on you could add PRX 712s for tops and add a 2nd PRX 718XLF and use the PRX 710 for front wedges. Also Axis when the last time you jammed and mix from stage ? not to mentioned didn't you almost have heat stroke 2 summers ago from logging around your giant passive rig around ? Sorry but IMO and IME active and digital wins hands down for bar band type that mixes from stage. I been doing active for almost decade now and digital for the past 3 years and don't break a sweat with roadie chores. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Axisplayer Posted April 20, 2014 Members Share Posted April 20, 2014 Twostone, my rig IS digital, with lightweight amps and has been for years. I never mixed from stage because I ran a sound company, not a band. The show where I almost got heat stroke was for 1000+ people outdoors in an open field, with no shade. It was over 105° with 95% humidity. I don't care what your rig is, you can and will get heat stroke if you misjudge your fluid intake, and thats what I did. If you are not breaking a sweat with your digital rig, it is because it isn't a very large rig. That has nothing to do with active, passive, analog or digital. The day you are remembering, I had more than 10K watts on mains, and 6K watts on monitors, digital FOH, digital monitor console, and digital snake, and unless you have one helluva powered system, it won't do that show. The front line of monitors were getting 1200 watts a cab, and thats as big as the active cabs most people use for FOH. I bought some Turbosound powered cabs ($2k per cabinet) and they sound wonderful, but at 124db they were not strong enough to be mains so I used them for monitors. However, at this point, I choose to not move gear anymore, no matter what kind it is. If I can't briefcase it, I don't work it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted April 21, 2014 Members Share Posted April 21, 2014 Time to look for a first class house gig eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted April 21, 2014 CMS Author Share Posted April 21, 2014 Kyhoops, welcome, and I would recommend you consider going with active (self-powered) speakers. You can use them with the current mixer...just use the 1/4" main and monitor outputs on the front panel. The Electro-Voice ZLX12P and 15P speakers are a great value, sound very good for the price, which is only about $100 more than the same speakers without power. I'd go with four of the 12", two for FOH, two for monitors to start, and then add the ELX118P sub(s) later as money allows. Next a decent passive mixer, either analog or digital, and you'll be on your way. I wouldn't mic amps at this point. If needed, the bass can use a DI into the PA. If you find yourself in outdoor shows or large enough rooms that the drums need to be mic'd, a simple and effective setup is an overhead condenser, a -57 on the snare/hat, and a Beta-52 in the kick. These three mics will do the job for 95% of drumkits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Axisplayer Posted April 21, 2014 Members Share Posted April 21, 2014 Time to look for a first class house gig eh? Andy, I actually decided to start helping my church more. They have almost nothing in the way of gear, and even less skills. I still answer questions for friends, and bands in the area I know, but I think my days of owning and lugging gear are behind me, as sad as that is. Part of being safe on the job is knowing when you are in over your head. After doing the final few shows alone, and seeing what shape I was in at the end of the night, I decided I had hit that time when the mind is willing, but the body isn't able. I am a small guy and the gear was always a struggle, but now even more so, so I am retiring before I get hurt, or worse, hurt someone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dbMontana Posted April 21, 2014 Members Share Posted April 21, 2014 Stu, when you and your family get around to your proposed North America RV tour let me know and I'll get you on the schedule to run sound for a night at our Tap Room. Music 6:00-8:00 and the heaviest thing to lift is the cover off the mixer rack. Haul out at 8:30 entails a case of beer as part of your compensation if you so choose otherwise just your jacket and hat. The pay will likely only buy enough RV fuel to get you to Missoula but the stress is low, the music generally good, and the patrons friendly and appreciative. Seriously, I think you and I are near the same age and there's no way my 6'1" 155 lbs frame can wrestle a real/pro sound system by myself. I recently helped break down the sound booth for a national touring act (their BE has become a good friend) and was amazed how heavy a SC48 is (it's just a flippin console for crying out loud!) -- glad we didn't have to deal with the six Meyer subs out front. Good luck on the church gig. Probably a bit different that the ones you're used to huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cappttenron Posted April 21, 2014 Members Share Posted April 21, 2014 When I retire from music and sound is when I die Look at the Stones arent they dead? Whoops not yet! Someone forgot to tell Kieth Richards he was dead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoryMcQ Posted April 22, 2014 Members Share Posted April 22, 2014 A modified version of the advice you've gotten so far, maybe even repeating someone else's suggestion - a single quality powered sub with built-in crossover would add some bottom end to your system and your Peavey supports feeding the sub and bringing just the highs back, relieving the Peavey's amp and your tops from the burden of reproducing low frequencies. You would have immediate benefit and the first piece of a defined upgrade path. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Stingray5 Posted April 27, 2014 Members Share Posted April 27, 2014 You will love RV'ing. I have a Dolphin 36ft With 2 slides,it's like a home on wheels.Have you decided on what make your getting?There is a good forum that will help with any questions you have Called RV.net. If there are any questions that I can help with let me know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Axisplayer Posted April 29, 2014 Members Share Posted April 29, 2014 Dave, I will be out that way at some point over the next couple of years. Thanks!! That sounds like a good time. You are a truly generous soul, and I will never forget that. Stingray5, we decided to just get our toes wet. Neither of us had RV'ing experience, but we looked at a lot of them. The path we chose was to buy a small trailer (no slides) for us to do a little weekending within a few hundred miles of home this year, since I still have one year left at work. If we find we don't like it, we won't have lost a lot of money. If we love it as much as we think we will, we will sell this one, and move up the food chain. Friends have a 36'(?) Airstream that we like, but we still have to decide whether to buy something like that, or a Class A or C motorhome. Seems that they all have advantages and disadvantages, so this year will tell us what we really want. There are only three of us, so we don't need anything large. Storage seems to be the only issue that makes us think we need something larger if we stay in this. I might shoot you questions as we explore this new world. Thanks for the offer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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