Members Audiopile Posted March 14, 2014 Members Share Posted March 14, 2014 Somewhat off topic... sort-of, maybe not to some (like me): I'm considering upgrading my vehicle scanner (to something that actually does something)... but I don't know what? My old scanner worked reasonably well on vehicles about a decade older than what I'm running now. What prompted this is my 2005 Sprinter van's check engine light is on, again, as of yesterday... and my outdated scanner won't read the Sprinter. I'm far enough from civilization that popping on down to the local autoparts store for a code reading is a major proposition... especially since I'm not going to make a 100 mile trip to town without stopping for a cheese burger, and doing a multipage list of shopping... trips to town always seem to turn into all day knock-down drag-outs. Based on my situation, springing for a decent scanner probably makes sense... most of my vehicles are late '90's to mid 2000's. I'm considering something like the Snapon Modis system (plenty of decent looking used systems on eBay). But I just don't know what I'm wading into. Maybe there's a $5 OBD type adaptor cable that I can plug into my Behringer X32 and a smartphone app that was uploaded with the firmware upgrade for the X32 that does it all... I dunno? I really hate that helpless feeling the "check engine" light comes on (probably just like everyone else)... and I'm "what... just what the heck now... this time." Not knowing if it's a sloppy fitting gas cap, or higher than normal resistance on a dome light, or a knock sensor throwing a code because I didn't burn-up that last tank of E10 before the ethanol drew enough moisture to hand me a check engine light... or if indeed a fuel pressure sensor is sensing that I have a fuel pump that's getting weak... aargh. I don't mind fixing stuff to maximize it's life expectancy... but I hate blindly throwing parts at something in a vain attempt to hopefully hit the bullseye. Looking for recommendations (besides buy a new Sprinter with a warranty). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members nchangin Posted March 14, 2014 Members Share Posted March 14, 2014 Good question I'd like to know the answer to as well. With all this "new" technology why can't they display a code and put the code in the manual so you know what needs to be serviced or "checked". Sure would be a good feeling to know it's the factory light coming on for a 100 K service or whatever else they conjur up to make even more money from their customers. I reckon then all your service departments would be out of job if they made it "that" simple...... sorry for the vent, carry on all and I hope you get this resolved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Audiopile Posted March 14, 2014 Author Members Share Posted March 14, 2014 Good question I'd like to know the answer to as well. With all this "new" technology why can't they display a code and put the code in the manual so you know what needs to be serviced or "checked". Some trouble codes can be accessed from the DIC (driver information center) on the instrument cluster of some vehicles. If armed with the trouble code, it might be simple enough to find trouble code descriptions with a Google search. Of-course, generally there's more than one trouble code, and a trouble code might not be able to differentiate from a failed sensor or failed sensor wire... but having the codes sure beats standing to the side of the vehicle with the hood open and peering into a mass of "complex"... and scratching your head. As far as later model vehicle owner's manuals go: I'm of the impression that whole deal has by-in-large turned into a bound pile of manufacture's cover-their-ass boilerplate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WynnD Posted March 15, 2014 Members Share Posted March 15, 2014 I'm wondering if it's time to stop scanning my own vehicles and just take them in. I realized that my Wife really doesn't care who fixes the car. I get credit if someone else fixes it and I was the one taking it in. (And it doesn't seem like that much money anymore.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sailorman Posted March 15, 2014 Members Share Posted March 15, 2014 I often long for the days when the only 'scanners' I needed were my eyes and ears. And I could open the hood and see the ground around the engine. Used to be I would NEVER take my car to a mechanic; I R&R'd the engine/transmission, new clutch, rebuilt the carb, installed headers and exhaust, replaced window regulator. And never, ever paid for a brake job. Now 'days, I'd sure hate to have to replace spark plugs, I need special tools to do the brakes, would be hard pressed to tackle anything fuel related, etc., etc. Maybe it's because I'm no longer as flexible as I used to be...:-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members OneEng Posted March 15, 2014 Members Share Posted March 15, 2014 Audiopile, This is what I do for a living (vehicle diagnostic equipment). Tools like Motis are made for mechanics who need to figure out what is wrong with a wide range of vehicles for a living. They are pretty expensive for the average Joe (or Audiopile) to purchase. Any time the MIL (Malfunction Indicator Lamp) or "Check Engine" light goes on, the vehicle stores its codes. The check engine light ONLY goes on in response to something the government says car manufacturers have to detect (CARB or California Air Resource Board). Therefore, anything that turns your engine light on can be read out with any generic OBDII reader. Don't spend any more money than you have to. Any generic scanner will get the code for you which is all you need. These can be had for around $10.00 like this one: http://www.amazon.com/Vgate-ELM327-Bluetooth-Scanner-ANDROID/dp/B00AAOOQJC/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1394913258&sr=8-4&keywords=obd2+scanner This particular one is for Android, but you can get one for the PC or one that has a display for a bit more, just do a search. What the Motis will get you that generic OBDII will not is the ability to read information and control actuators from all the control modules on the vehicle (95% of which have nothing to do with emission requirements or how your vehicle runs). If you were trying to fix a window that didn't seem to be working, it would be nice to see if the body chassis module or door module had any codes to tell you why (as an example). It also might be nice to attempt to roll the window up by commanding it in the tool (which if it worked would let you know that the motor and control module were fine and that likely the switch is bad). Once you have the code, do an internet search to see what it means (or you could post it here and I will tell you). I have direct access to an army of Chrysler diagnostic engineers over in Auburn hills .... a few of them even owe me a favor I suspect we can figure out your vehicles problem pretty quick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Audiopile Posted March 17, 2014 Author Members Share Posted March 17, 2014 Thanks Eng, that's some good information there. My generic ODBII scanner seemingly won't read a darn thing that German Sprinter machine has to say. But then I see my generic ODBII scanner has a copyright date of 1997. I think I'll have a look into the PC based scanner. Beings as I'm the only one in the neighborhood (and for quite a few miles in any direction) that's even remotely into this stuff... I guess that makes me the default computer car dude for the area, and the neighbors lean on me pretty heavy to help if I can... so chances are I'll continue to be leaned on to help figure out what's wrong with a wide range of vehicles... even if I don't do that for a living. I suspect I'll be back (here) to ask more questions after I do some research. Thanks for pointing me in a direction! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted March 17, 2014 Members Share Posted March 17, 2014 FWIW I bought a cheap U480 last year:http://www.ebay.com/sch/xtooltech2013/m.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members OneEng Posted March 17, 2014 Members Share Posted March 17, 2014 I am at work right now but it looks like your vehicle uses VPW J1850 as it's generic communications. Make sure you get a scanner that does this and you should be fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wesg Posted March 17, 2014 Members Share Posted March 17, 2014 If you have the option, get one that can display CAN bus messages, too. Something that can capture live data is also handy. I had a problem with my Venture a couple of months ago, the engine kept running like crap, but the MIL didn't turn on and the computer wasn't storing any codes. I put my scanner in live capture mode during my commute and noted the frame number when my van started running poorly, and when it started running well again. It turns out it was going into open loop mode, which was a bit of a puzzle. It indicates a problem with the fuel/emissions system (surprise surprise) but there were no codes and the sensor data looked okay to me. Then I fortuitously noticed that my gas cap was not sealing properly...a cheap fix that seems to have worked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members OneEng Posted March 17, 2014 Members Share Posted March 17, 2014 If you have the option, get one that can display CAN bus messages, too. Something that can capture live data is also handy. I had a problem with my Venture a couple of months ago, the engine kept running like crap, but the MIL didn't turn on and the computer wasn't storing any codes. I put my scanner in live capture mode during my commute and noted the frame number when my van started running poorly, and when it started running well again. It turns out it was going into open loop mode, which was a bit of a puzzle. It indicates a problem with the fuel/emissions system (surprise surprise) but there were no codes and the sensor data looked okay to me. Then I fortuitously noticed that my gas cap was not sealing properly...a cheap fix that seems to have worked. A gas cap being off will not put the vehicle into open loop (to the best of my knowledge). Even if it did, open loop doesn't necessarily mean you would notice any performance issues. It would mean that the vehicle was burning more fuel than it needed and was polluting the air If you leave the gas cap off long enough, it will set the MIL. In fact, it is required to by law (it has to catch a .020" leak in about 2 weeks). If manufacturers get too many reported MIL's in the field, they are forced by CARB to recall the vehicles causing them. For this reason, many vehicles have a gas cap light that illuminates when the leak is first detected. To be complete, the code is set in the "pending" register, but hasn't yet been promoted to a full continuous code yet. The cap light simply indicates that after a given number of engine run events and specific driving conditions being met, the MIL is going to light unless you do something about it. I think there is very little chance that leaving your cap off would result in any engine performance issues. wesg, if you can, go to an Autozone (or similar store) and have them pull the codes for you. I know that the SnapOn tools don't always show pending codes, but maybe the SPX tools do (We do the GM GDS2 software world wide and it does it. The GM Tech2 also shows pending codes). The tools that can display data are more expensive than the code readers, but even then, be careful that you get one that supports your vehicle (in Audiopile's case it is VPW J1850). The tools that can display manufacturer specific detailed information are much more expensive (like Motis or the OEM shop tool like GM GDS2 or Tech2), but are very comprehensive. All newer vehicles support CAN as their generic OBDII protocol. Any generic scan tool you purchase new today will almost surely cover at least CAN .... and many ONLY cover CAN. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Easy Listener Posted March 18, 2014 Members Share Posted March 18, 2014 I often long for the days when the only 'scanners' I needed were my eyes and ears. And I could open the hood and see the ground around the engine. Used to be I would NEVER take my car to a mechanic; I R&R'd the engine/transmission, new clutch, rebuilt the carb, installed headers and exhaust, replaced window regulator. And never, ever paid for a brake job. Now 'days, I'd sure hate to have to replace spark plugs, I need special tools to do the brakes, would be hard pressed to tackle anything fuel related, etc., etc. Maybe it's because I'm no longer as flexible as I used to be...:-) Chryslers, for decades, have allowed you to scan it yourself. You turn the key on and off twice and then on again. The codes display across the odometer if it's flourescent, or flash like morse code with the check engine light if it is older. Then you look up the code on the internet, buy the five dollar part, plug it in, problem solved. I like that. It's really easy to fix your own car if the problem is with a part connected to the computer and it's not expensive to actually do the work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted March 18, 2014 Members Share Posted March 18, 2014 It should be noted that the code is often an indication of what MIGHT be the cause but it's not a definite diagnostic tool, especially on older vehicles. It's all about odds and statistics of what is most likely. A cyl 1 misfire code does not mean you should replace cyl. #1, it means that the deeper diagnistic focus should be on the cylinder 1 componets (ie. ignition components, fuel components, possibly valve train) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Easy Listener Posted March 18, 2014 Members Share Posted March 18, 2014 It should be noted that the code is often an indication of what MIGHT be the cause but it's not a definite diagnostic tool, especially on older vehicles. It's all about odds and statistics of what is most likely. A cyl 1 misfire code does not mean you should replace cyl. #1, it means that the deeper diagnistic focus should be on the cylinder 1 componets (ie. ignition components, fuel components, possibly valve train) In my case it said a particular component was bad each time. Every time it nailed it. The only exception was the transmission problem (700). Then it requires a special reader to further diagnose what transmission problem threw the generic code. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members OneEng Posted March 18, 2014 Members Share Posted March 18, 2014 Andy is right, the code is only a symptom, not a cause. I have access to the OEM cause database and can give a list of causes for any code along with other procedures to do to determine if that particular cause is what is really wrong. Some are obvious .... like O2 sensor codes. Misfire codes are absolutely not obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted March 18, 2014 Members Share Posted March 18, 2014 Yup, I am pretty familiar with the diagnistics routines and how they are often generated. Those that are open loop codes come from sensors that are not integrated into the control loop (like a misfire detection routine that get's it's information from the crankshaft position sensor pulse stream) and these are very symptom only but help identify where to look. There are also sensors that are part of the process itself (or directly integrated into the process) which are much more specific. None are foolproof however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members OneEng Posted March 19, 2014 Members Share Posted March 19, 2014 Yup, I am pretty familiar with the diagnistics routines and how they are often generated. Those that are open loop codes come from sensors that are not integrated into the control loop (like a misfire detection routine that get's it's information from the crankshaft position sensor pulse stream) and these are very symptom only but help identify where to look. There are also sensors that are part of the process itself (or directly integrated into the process) which are much more specific. None are foolproof however. ... and you would be surprised at some of the causes of codes I have seen in my time My latest was a cam or crank sensor fault on an older dodge avenger (my sons car). Ended up being the alternator feeding back noise into the PCM and perturbing the crank signal...... which sent the PCM into "limp home mode" and made it run like garbage. The guys that work for me at work were joking that I was using tools that were 10 times the value of the car I was trying to fix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted March 19, 2014 Members Share Posted March 19, 2014 Cars are VERY noisy environments with no actual earth grounds. I imagine noise rejection and keeping the frame or circuit returns at equipotential is a hugh challenge, especially with wild temp/humidity swings, vibrations and corrosion issues that a car will see in it's lifetime. I have it easy by comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Easy Listener Posted March 19, 2014 Members Share Posted March 19, 2014 Andy is right, the code is only a symptom, not a cause. I have access to the OEM cause database and can give a list of causes for any code along with other procedures to do to determine if that particular cause is what is really wrong. Some are obvious .... like O2 sensor codes. Misfire codes are absolutely not obvious. My cars that throw codes have done it a total of four times. Three of them identified a particular part. I replaced the part and the check engine light went out. In one case the problem was fixed permanently. Two of them caused a car that would not start and the car started and was fixed permanently. The only one that I can't say this about is th generic transmission fault. I never noticed an actual problem and never fixed it. I eventually traded the car in. But all my experience is with chryslers and with only a few cars. It may be too anecdotal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members nchangin Posted March 19, 2014 Members Share Posted March 19, 2014 Easy Listener: If it was a 42RLE tranny from chrysler there's your problem. Junk. Should be a class action suit someday against that product. Complete udder Junk. And they make you pay for the TSI (or whatever they call it) update flashy thingy too (that they originally released with wacko shift timings on the program) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Easy Listener Posted March 19, 2014 Members Share Posted March 19, 2014 Easy Listener: If it was a 42RLE tranny from chrysler there's your problem. Junk. Should be a class action suit someday against that product. Complete udder Junk. And they make you pay for the TSI (or whatever they call it) update flashy thingy too (that they originally released with wacko shift timings on the program) Auto trans are definitely a weakness in Chryslers, especially the mini-vans, but this one was just short of 200,000 miles when it threw the code. It went another 15k with no problems before I traded it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members nchangin Posted March 19, 2014 Members Share Posted March 19, 2014 Yes but that model has affected many models for many years. In fact I read chrysler came tot he point of replacing the vehicle if they could not fix that model transmission, they even waived the 100 deduct on the factory warranty for that model of tranny, you'll have to read up but I suffered for years until I finally read up on it, once I found out I traded up the vehicle after looking at replacing the tranny for 3rd time. Gone are the days of the strong 727 transmissions. Although the 904 wasn't much better than the 42RLE in past history, it would still at least go 100 K miles under normal circumstances. If you were @ 200 K on the original transmission, hard to expect more than that from most manufactures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Easy Listener Posted March 20, 2014 Members Share Posted March 20, 2014 Yep! Also, apparently the main culprit was even the Chrysler dealerships would use Dextron II in those tranny's which was a no-no. It wasn't "grippy" enough. But I'm going back to the 90's with this info. It's pretty common knowledge within the circles that care about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members nchangin Posted March 20, 2014 Members Share Posted March 20, 2014 easy it's been a few years but I think your right, my plymouth volare (with a slant 6 hillside hemi in it) had a 904 and replaced it several times. I was in college and broke and could find old beat up cars with that tranny in them and buy them for 20 bucks. Had a lot of issues with the torque converters on those as well. I do think I recall that fluid...never heard it was bad for them though? that was a LONG time ago...ha. Always knew when that 904 was going out, when it got hotter it would get it wouldn't go from 2nd to 3rd very well, eventually it wouldn't shift out of 2nd at all (toast and replace it time) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Audiopile Posted March 21, 2014 Author Members Share Posted March 21, 2014 Here's the diagnosis tool I bought... hopefully it's the tool for the job: http://www.ebay.com/itm/370953066004?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649 The device should arrive tomorrow... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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