Members Potts Posted September 4, 2012 Members Share Posted September 4, 2012 Sven and I were bull{censored}ting about a bunch of things in another thread and instead of hijacking it I decided I'd continue the conversation over here. Here is what got the ball rolling. SVEN WROTE It's just frustrating on these forums trying to connect with people because not too many are on my vibe. Most are Cover dudes and ya know, I've been there and done that and it gets old going round and round. I've been interacting on a regular basis on these forums for almost 12 years and there WERE a lot of guys who got it back in the day but most were old timers who've since moved on. I'm getting the sense that it's time for me to move on as well. Such is life...Might be time for me to start a forum for musicians who are trying to have a career based in original music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Potts Posted September 4, 2012 Author Members Share Posted September 4, 2012 Naw man! Lots of us get it. You don't think me and some others don't get it? You and I have had this talk before. It's been years man...like 30 doing this. I'm not out shopping tunes or trying to get a deal anymore. It's not realistic for me. But that doesn't make me less of an artist, songwriter or performer. My end result is just different than someone trying to get signed People like me are out and about doing the cover thing because for some its fun, and for some others like me ,it's both fun and a job. It's a better job than any other I've had in my entire life. To hear someone rag on my job all the time, especially a job in music, doesn't make much sense Instead of fighting it, you should embrace it here and go to the song-writers forum or other places that speak more about original music when you're sick of it. Dude.. I'm working on a disc, I've been writing for ever and still play originals. There's nothing to talk about though. I mean we can discuss how I sat up last night for 2.5 hours and didn't get anything inspiring. We can talk about all the tracks I've laid down in the past 90 days that amounted to about 3 minutes of good stuff. None of that is as interesting as talking about the drunk chick that flashed me her tits and mistakenly flipped me her last $20... You're vibe and many of us here are the same. We just have to find the correct posts to get there. None of us ended up mostly playing music because we wanted to play cover tunes. I'll toss a little lesson out...I've been without an original product for a long time. When I finish this disc I will be in an UNREAL position to both share/play and sell my music. I know you've done this before but probably not recently so maybe you don't remember. When doing 175 gigs a year, you get to interact with a lot of people. I get repeat customers and most will buy discs. If the songs are good they'll expect to hear them live and I'll easily be able to play, and probably expected to play, 10+ originals a night. That will complete this whole thing I've been doing for so long But to drop the covers and attempt to support myself playing my tunes so I can fit in a "mold" is ludicrous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Potts Posted September 4, 2012 Author Members Share Posted September 4, 2012 SVEN WROTE I gotcha..As I said, I can come off as a dick because, I get frustrated on this forum a lot but i'm not a dick and I don't mean it. Dude, I can tell you've been doing this forever as well. You're VERY good at what you do! That's quite evident, and I would LOVE to hear some original stuff. As far as that goes, I found it very difficult to get that happening when I was gigging 200+ dates a year. Very little time for writing and even less for production work so I understand your woes. All I can say is just take your time, have fun and plod along. Don't worry so much about albums..They aren't selling anyway. get 4 or 5 tunes done and make and acoustic EP to sell from stage. Do one a year and only put your 4 or 5 best tunes on it. Play the {censored} out of em at every gig and you'll sell 1000 of those records a year @ $5 a pop. Use that extra money to put back into the production of your originals and step it up each time. Have fun with it because that's what it's about, right?...My buddy just got back from doing a month at Irish Kevins in Key West and he moved 442 CDs from the stage!!..That's almost unbelievable!!!..and some nice $$$Here's My story. I quit doing solo acoustic cover/original work full time, January 4th 2010 so it hasn't been THAT long ago! Probably done about 20 or so cover/pub type gigs since here and there. Again, I was frustrated and burnt out for so many years, it took it's toll on me for sure, and it was time to quit. In the last few years I was doing about 50/50 originals and covers and ONLY playing covers I felt like doing..Stuff I dug which as you can probably imagine WAS NOT the mainstream stuff that was happening, and I didn't care! It worked for me though and I got as much work as I wanted over in Europe, lots of money, sold lots of records etc...But...Still I was miserable. The reason..Because I had never come here to Nashville and given it a REAL SHOT!..So I finally did that at 40 years old which turned out to be the best thing I've ever done by far! Not only was a ready as far as the art, but my wife was behind me 100% and everything fell into place to move here. Got here, 3 weeks later had my first song deal and I've had a few more since..nothing big or no big artists cuts yet but it's coming. They say in this town it's about 5 years from the time your song gets out there to when it's cut so I'm patient these days..Plotting along, writing, doing production, going to music business school, writers rounds, co-writes, NSAI events, etc etc..Doing the Nashville thing they way it's done. I'm very very content. The only issue is of course money is tight as you can imagine but that's OK... I will say this, if there existed ANYWHERE within an hour vicinity of my house ANY real paying solo gigs, I would go get them because $$ is that tight. I've had enough time away now and am at a place in life where i'm very confident in doing things the way I like musically, that it would be fun...But man, here in Nashville the greatest talented writers, performers and players from every small town play everywhere for free just for a shot at someone seeing them..It's a non-starter here for $$ unless you wanted to play the game of making the rounds to try to become someone's road Guitarist/bassist, etc...I have no desire...So, I'm probably going to head back over to Europe and start cultivating an original touring career there which should take me about 5 years of regularly touring there a couple times a year which is fine...I can do a ship for 30 days and make about $10K and then do another 6 weeks after that of touring around Northern Europe and building it up. Luckily I have friends and contacts over there for playing there for 2 years..It's a GREAT scene over there for singer songwriter..ESPECIALLY American..They go nuts for what we do an believe me, they do not and can not do it like us so while it's just normal over here, it's a rare commodity over in Europe. i've sold out 300 seat theaters, house concerts and many a pub show over there just on limited advertising, some radio, blogs, newspapers and word of mouth..Just because I'm an American Rock/Americana singer songwriter Crazy!!...Anyway, sorry for rambling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Potts Posted September 4, 2012 Author Members Share Posted September 4, 2012 Thanks for the compliments! The part of your recent post that stuck out is the 5 song EP thing. So you think that could be a better and more efficient way to go? My biggest issue right now is funding. Can I actually get them pressed cheaper with less music on it? What would you do for the sleeve of the disc? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BlueStrat Posted September 4, 2012 Members Share Posted September 4, 2012 Thanks for the compliments! The part of your recent post that stuck out is the 5 song EP thing. So you think that could be a better and more efficient way to go? My biggest issue right now is funding. Can I actually get them pressed cheaper with less music on it? What would you do for the sleeve of the disc? Pressing a disc costs the same whether you have 20 songs or 1. You might consider recording and pressing a full length CD and then releasing the songs digitally a few at a time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mike McLaughlin Posted September 4, 2012 Members Share Posted September 4, 2012 Great topic! Yeah, I write, and have a 12 original song CD that I sell at gigs. I wouldn't have the gigs if I only did originals, and it probably wouldn't be as fun either. But I do sell at the gigs, and play a few originals mixed in with the covers. BONUS: BMI pays me royalties for playin' my own tunes. I report the date, venue, and songs played to "BMI Live" and I've received $6-$10 each time I play a song, depending on co-writes, or sole writes each quarter ($300-450/qtr). I have been producing my own discs, but I should have them replicated and put on CDBaby, iTunes and such. I have a single song CD on CDbaby for years and it does real well to a niche audience. I also get a lot of mileage doing "custom versions" where I "punch-in" a line or three to make it fit their situation better. I only charge $30 for custom MP3, or $50 for a custom CD. Did two this week, and three last week! Springtime wedding season is even better! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Terry Allan Hall Posted September 4, 2012 Members Share Posted September 4, 2012 I've learned that the most expedient way to gig often and get my originals heard often (thus, sell more CDs) AND make good $$$ as a performer is to "sandwich" the original in between a coiuple of well-loved cover-tunes...thus, I do a ratio of about 33% orginals to about 66% covers. Once an original becomes well-known enouigh to get requested regularily, it goes into the "covers" pile and a new original makes it's debut...maybe it'll eventually become a 66% originals/33% covers ratio, but it'll never be a 100% original set-list (other than on the rare occasion when it's required)...too many great songs by others for me to interpret! Some interesting ideas, Mike! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted September 4, 2012 Members Share Posted September 4, 2012 Thanks for the compliments! The part of your recent post that stuck out is the 5 song EP thing. So you think that could be a better and more efficient way to go? My biggest issue right now is funding. Can I actually get them pressed cheaper with less music on it? What would you do for the sleeve of the disc? The goal of the music you sell isn't "how many songs per dollar spent on pressing". It's establishing a connection between you, the material, and the audience. And selling product/making money. Sven is right that nobody cares about albums, per se, anymore. So think about it these terms: You have two somewhat conflicting goals. On one hand it would be great if you were just selling one song at a time. Like a new artist on the radio with a big hit single, everyone would connect you with that song. And they'd want to hear it everytime they saw you play. On the other hand, you want to give people some sense of value for their money. If you're going to sell a disc for $10, it needs to have a handful of songs on it. But a full album of songs tends to dillute you and your material. Most people buying your disc will be somewhat casual fans and they aren't likely to be invested to listening to you for 45 min - an hour in their car or at home. But 20 minutes is no big deal. They'll be more likely to listen to the entire tracks and play them more often if they like them. And you're more likely to give them "all killer/no filler" with each subsequent release. It may sound counter-intuitive, but when I go see a performer selling music, I'm more apt to buy the disc with 4 or 5 songs than the one with 10 or 12 because I really don't want to listen to that much music. I just want the best stuff. And I'm an old guy who has purchased thousands of albums over the years. I can only imagine that younger fans would be even more inclined to think the same way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Potts Posted September 4, 2012 Author Members Share Posted September 4, 2012 Great responses! David I'm inclined to agree with you regarding the reasons for a "shorter" disc. What do you guys think about putting five tunes on a thumb drive with some digital media and stuff. I'm thinking this will help with my initial money issues regarding pressing a disc. Do you think that if I could find them inexpensively, I could sell them for $5 or so. Any suggestions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted September 4, 2012 Members Share Posted September 4, 2012 Great responses! David I'm inclined to agree with you regarding the reasons for a "shorter" disc. What do you guys think about putting five tunes on a thumb drive with some digital media and stuff. I'm thinking this will help with my initial money issues regarding pressing a disc. Do you think that if I could find them inexpensively, I could sell them for $5 or so. Any suggestions? Can you find thumb drives that are that cheap? If you're going to do that, why not just press your own disc? Epson sells inkjet printers that print onto discs. They come out looking very good, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members backtoblue Posted September 4, 2012 Members Share Posted September 4, 2012 Great responses! David I'm inclined to agree with you regarding the reasons for a "shorter" disc. What do you guys think about putting five tunes on a thumb drive with some digital media and stuff. I'm thinking this will help with my initial money issues regarding pressing a disc. Do you think that if I could find them inexpensively, I could sell them for $5 or so. Any suggestions? I suggest kunaki.com. Jewel case, full color 2 panel insert and tray liner and full color printing on the disc, barcode and shrink-wrapped - all for $1.75 a disc. It's not as nice as what DiscMakers or whatever can do, but physical discs aren't really worth investing much into these days anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mike McLaughlin Posted September 4, 2012 Members Share Posted September 4, 2012 Can you find thumb drives that are that cheap? If you're going to do that, why not just press your own disc? Epson sells inkjet printers that print onto discs. They come out looking very good, IMO. +1 This is what I do! I have an old Epson RS230 with disc tray. Staples sells printable CDs for $25 for 50 ($0.50 each), less when they're on sale. Then I buy cases for about 25 cents each and do the jacket and inside using Adobe Photoshop elements. So I invest about 70-80 cents in each disk not counting the ink and time. Of course, the studio cost is already paid! I make about a dozen disks at a time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Potts Posted September 4, 2012 Author Members Share Posted September 4, 2012 I suggest kunaki.com. Jewel case, full color 2 panel insert and tray liner and full color printing on the disc, barcode and shrink-wrapped - all for $1.75 a disc. It's not as nice as what DiscMakers or whatever can do, but physical discs aren't really worth investing much into these days anyway. This looks like a pretty solid option. What have you found that makes these "less desirable" than a disc from one of the high end companies? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Potts Posted September 4, 2012 Author Members Share Posted September 4, 2012 +1 This is what I do! I have an old Epson RS230 with disc tray. Staples sells printable CDs for $25 for 50 ($0.50 each), less when they're on sale. Then I buy cases for about 25 cents each and do the jacket and inside using Adobe Photoshop elements. So I invest about 70-80 cents in each disk not counting the ink and time. Of course, the studio cost is already paid! I make about a dozen disks at a time. This is another solid option but probably a little bit time consuming for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted September 4, 2012 Members Share Posted September 4, 2012 This is another solid option but probably a little bit time consuming for me. Well, once you design the graphics for the insert and the disc you're done. And I presume you'll come up with your own design anyway to send them off somewhere? Yeah, you've gotta spend time burning and printing, but you can do that while you're watching TV or posting at HC.... But $1.75 per disc to get them professionally done sounds pretty damn reasonable. I'd certainly check out that option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mike McLaughlin Posted September 4, 2012 Members Share Posted September 4, 2012 But $1.75 per disc to get them professionally done sounds pretty damn reasonable. I'd certainly check out that option. I've looked into Kunaki in the past because someone I know recommended them. $1.75 sounds attractive until you add shipping costs! 1 unit w/shipping totals $5.3010 units w/shipping totals $26.7025 units w/shipping totals $54.10 At that price may as well go with discmakers or accubit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Potts Posted September 4, 2012 Author Members Share Posted September 4, 2012 I just got a quick quote for fun...50 discs with shipping for $107. I also read some reviews that seemed pretty favorable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Potts Posted September 4, 2012 Author Members Share Posted September 4, 2012 It's funny. One persons expensive is another prisons "deal". There is no doubt in my mind that I'll use this service when I get my stuff mastered. I can handle $2 a disc with no minimum way better than going to disc makers or something and paying $1000 just to get rolling. I've looked into Kunaki in the past because someone I know recommended them. $1.75 sounds attractive until you add shipping costs!1 unit w/shipping totals $5.3010 units w/shipping totals $26.7025 units w/shipping totals $54.10At that price may as well go with discmakers or accubit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members chemikool Posted September 4, 2012 Members Share Posted September 4, 2012 Great info guys! Who do you use or recommend for mastering? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members deezle250 Posted September 4, 2012 Members Share Posted September 4, 2012 I've used Kunaki before. One thing I like about them is no minimum to buy. I keep about 10 cd's on the counter at my uncles restaurant in town. When I run out there, I just order 10 more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members moogerfooger Posted September 4, 2012 Members Share Posted September 4, 2012 I play covers because they are infinitely better than the {censored} i write so........................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sventvkg Posted September 4, 2012 Members Share Posted September 4, 2012 Pressing a disc costs the same whether you have 20 songs or 1. You might consider recording and pressing a full length CD and then releasing the songs digitally a few at a time. Pretty much everyone is doing the opposite these days. Releasing digitally one at a time and if they do a full record at all, they do it after a bunch of singles have been released. My buddy who just moved 442 records from stage on Key West uses a card that you scan on Android and iPhone that takes you right to the iTunes store for fast efficient and quick download right to their phone. He says this is how everyone is buying now and doesn't even do physical discs anymore!! He had some older records that he does move from stage but when they are out, they too will be digital only. Me personally, I'd still have both but I wouldn't bother with a full record. EP's are great for these small attention span times we live in and a $5 purchase is easily justified and doable for most. Again, you can do a full length if you want to, have enough tunes, etc. But in the interest of time, number of songs and wanting to get something out there you can sell from the stage, EP's are a great compromise these days. As for pressing a disc. Why? Almost everyone just takes em home and rips them to their computer/iTunes etc..I have been using Kunaki and having them replicate 20 at a time but you can do the amount that is right for you for how many records ya move. Yes, they are CDr's but I haven't had any complaints. they look, feel and sound just like my pressed discs of yore and I can get one a time if I want..The cost $1-$1.75 a disc depending and ya just upload it all to their servers using their very simple desktop app. LOVE IT!!!..... I ended up doing two, 8 song EP's with Kunaki in July. I'll attach pics so ya can see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sventvkg Posted September 4, 2012 Members Share Posted September 4, 2012 The goal of the music you sell isn't "how many songs per dollar spent on pressing". It's establishing a connection between you, the material, and the audience. And selling product/making money. Sven is right that nobody cares about albums, per se, anymore. So think about it these terms:You have two somewhat conflicting goals. On one hand it would be great if you were just selling one song at a time. Like a new artist on the radio with a big hit single, everyone would connect you with that song. And they'd want to hear it everytime they saw you play. On the other hand, you want to give people some sense of value for their money. If you're going to sell a disc for $10, it needs to have a handful of songs on it.But a full album of songs tends to dillute you and your material. Most people buying your disc will be somewhat casual fans and they aren't likely to be invested to listening to you for 45 min - an hour in their car or at home. But 20 minutes is no big deal. They'll be more likely to listen to the entire tracks and play them more often if they like them. And you're more likely to give them "all killer/no filler" with each subsequent release.It may sound counter-intuitive, but when I go see a performer selling music, I'm more apt to buy the disc with 4 or 5 songs than the one with 10 or 12 because I really don't want to listen to that much music. I just want the best stuff. And I'm an old guy who has purchased thousands of albums over the years. I can only imagine that younger fans would be even more inclined to think the same way. THIS EXACTLY! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members backtoblue Posted September 4, 2012 Members Share Posted September 4, 2012 This looks like a pretty solid option. What have you found that makes these "less desirable" than a disc from one of the high end companies? Looks like you've already gotten some info on them, but really the only drawback with kunaki is lack of options. You get a two panel cover page. That's it. It's a very efficient, face-less type of operation, but what they do they do well. I've had a couple misprints and cracked jewel case, etc. but for the most part I can't complain about the quality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sventvkg Posted September 4, 2012 Members Share Posted September 4, 2012 Great responses! David I'm inclined to agree with you regarding the reasons for a "shorter" disc. What do you guys think about putting five tunes on a thumb drive with some digital media and stuff. I'm thinking this will help with my initial money issues regarding pressing a disc. Do you think that if I could find them inexpensively, I could sell them for $5 or so. Any suggestions? Thumb drive is an option and i know bands that have tried it to some degree of success but you still HAVE TO HAVE A DISC for them to be able to pop into their stereo on the way home and check you out! That is when you solidify your connection to the casually interested potential fan and make them a real fan!... As far as that goes like my buddy John, you can have the option to sell the record right from the stage with his download card..He's got that weird digital image thing that they scan with the app and it takes them right to the itunes store, downloads the record right to their phone and boom!! They can still listen right then and there or on the ride home. He is selling all his records exclusively like this and this is how everyone under early 30's are buying and even older. I would have some physical discs on hand as well for the neophytes though:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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