How loud is loud enough?

[pogo97]

We talk a lot about having enough power to be loud enough for xxx room. How loud is that?

 

- loud enough to hear yourself

- loud enough for the front half of the venue to hear you clearly

- loud enough for the whole venue to hear you clearly

- loud enough to overpower all conversation

 

I sometimes play at a bar that seats 30. Not a dance venue. When the patrons are listening, you could fill it with a transistor radio or just acoustically; when the patrons are, apparently, from a convention for deaf longshoremen, 1000 watts isn't going to help because then the talkers start shouting and the room simply becomes oppressively loud (and I leave, if possible).

[daddymack]

Let's review...Wattage is not necessarily the answer [love is the answer].

First, let's remember that a 100W amp is not ten times louder than a 10W amp....not even twice as loud; but it will project further and 'seem/feel' louder, especially the closer you are to it.

A 15W tube amp will sound appreciably louder than a 50W solid state amp.

Loudness is about perception, where as SPL is a measurable, quantifiable physical function.

So many other factors have an effect as well, shape of the room, ceiling height, wall decorations, how many people are in the room, whether you are elevated on a stage/riser, and how high, whether the amp is elevated or on the floor.

Then too, style of music is a factor as well. If you are strumming sea chantys you likely don't want any distortion, but also likely don't need the projection that a heavy metal band would deem necessary.

 

There is little you should [note: not can or could] do with a loud crowd. They are loud for potentially many reasons...they can't hear themselves over your music, their conversation is of greater concern that your pitiable wailing, they wanted a more intimate venue but this was all that was available, or they are just jerks who don't care about music. None of these issues will be corrected if you increase your volume. My experience has shown that if you want to control the crowd volume in the room, turn lower....unless the hearing-impaired hog-caller convention is in town, in which case, pack it in.

[STM86]

Really great points about not getting into a loudness war. Not to be confused with THE Loudness War. The patrons are who you are there for. So if they want to talk over you, then that's what they're likely going to do. All you can do is give them the best background music you can give them and hopefully steal their attention temporarily from time to time.

[TrickyBoy]

I used to teach 7th and 8th grade math. I learned early on that when the class is talkative, the wrong response is yelling. Instead talk quieter. It's amazing how hard that worked. So IMO, daddymack's advice is spot on.

 

My wife and I perform acoustically 4-6 times a months. I am very cognizant of being too loud. You want to make sure people can hear you, but at the same time you are generally only part of the "entertainment equation" for the patrons. Yeah they like your tunes, but they are also there to visit with friends, eat, drink, etc. Therefore it is very important IMO to maintain a low enough volume so that people can carry on a conversation without shouting. It's amazing how often we'll play a restaurant and have a table that talks constantly the whole time they are there, paying us virtually no mind at all, and then they get up and tip $20-$30 on their way out and tell us how much they enjoyed it.

[Notes_Norton]

Not quite what you asked, but I try to keep the sound to the first seat no louder than 85db on an SPL meter, "A" weighted and slow response. Why? I don't feel I should damage the ears of my audience.

 

If they should ask me to crank it up, it's their choice not mine.

 

On the other side of the spectrum, at one Yacht club we play in, during the dinner set 65dba is max until after dinner and it's time for dancing,

 

I love my audience, and don't want to harm them.

 

Insights and incites by Notes

[Mikeo]

Loud enough to draw folks in, not too loud so it turns them away.

 

 

 

 

[daddymack]

there you go...Notes is spot on again; I carry a dB meter just for that reason...and yeah, when we do a dinner set, we do instrumentals only, and keep the volume at between 60 and 70dB on stage [fortunately, we have a reasonably well trained drummer], depending how far away we are from the table of the guy signing the check...

[daddymack]

^ the basic premise....

[daddymack]

I tend to play lower even in a full band situation, having learned decades ago it is far better to be asked to turn up rather than told to turn down...

[DeepEnd]

Let's review...Wattage is not necessarily the answer [love is the answer].

First, let's remember that a 100W amp is not ten times louder than a 10W amp....not even twice as loud; but it will project further and 'seem/feel' louder, especially the closer you are to it.

A 15W tube amp will sound appreciably louder than a 50W solid state amp. . . .

Actually, all else being equal (which it rarely is) 100 Watts is subjectively "twice as loud" as 10 Watts. As for tube Watts vs. SS Watts, that's a myth. Watts are Watts. Among other things, the FTC says so. What you do get from a tube amp is headroom. Once a SS amp goes beyond maximum RMS power, it begins to distort, badly, a phenomenon known as "clipping." A tube amp of similar Wattage will keep going, with the level of distortion gradually increasing instead of the hitting-a-wall unpleasantness you get from a SS amp. That's one of the reasons a 30 Watt tube guitar amp will normally do just fine.

Getting back to the notion of "How loud?" I play guitar in a praise band and when I would use my electric our lead vocalist was constantly complain that "The guitars are too loud," meaning my guitar was too loud. All I wanted was to be able to hear my guitar but when I could she complained. I finally got around the problem by moving my amp, pointing it at me, and running a line out to the PA. And even then, there's a huge difference between rehearsal in an empty sanctuary and playing during worship. These days, I rehearse with my guitar turned down and crank it during worship.

Years ago, my wife and I were having dinner in a local Ethiopian place and the band was in the bar part of the place. They were a reggae band and the bass player was shaking the walls. Nobody was dancing and AFAIK nobody had come to hear the band, they were just 'way too loud for any sane situation.

[daddymack]

Watts may be Watts, but I will play a 50W SS amp and a 15W tube amp side by side, on 4, 5, 6, 7 [before the SS amp clips] and you tell me which one sounds louder...ALWAYS the tube amp [a lot to do with the harmonic over tones and wave shapes]...and I forgot to invoke the whole speaker efficiency aspect into the 10w vs 100w thang, my bad...but yes, all things being 'relative', a 100w tube amp would sound [about] twice as loud as a 10w tube amp at one meter distance...

[onelife]

[indeed it is]

[onelife]

Loud enough to draw folks in' date=' not too loud so it turns them away.[/quote']

 

I went to a Don Williams concert in the mid 80s in a 10,000 seat sports area. The Front Of House was right in the middle of the floor and the stage was near but not at one end.

 

The sound was superb and not loud. It sounded like he was singing in your living room. The thing that struck me the most was that people were leaning forward in their seats to get more of the music. They were literally being drawn in.

 

I thought "this is way better than trying to drive the music down people's throats." At one point he was doing his big hit song "Amanda" and they just gently pulled it back until just the voices of the audience filled the room. It was more like a choir than a bunch of people screaming out a repedative four note chorus at a rock concert.

 

At one point I went down to the floor and stood beside the FOH and thought "what a great gig this is for these guys."

 

The power is not in the amplifiers, the power is in the music.

[DeepEnd]

No, it won't. If the gain of both amps is the same and the input signal is the same and the sensitivity of the two speakers is the same the two amps will be at the same volume level. There is no "sounds louder." I don't think I can embed vids in comments so here's a link to a YouTube vid of Craig McDonald comparing a Marshall 30 Watt tube amp and a Marshall 50 Watt SS amp. Both amps are running through identical cabs miked with identical Shure mikes and both are set at 5 with the same Strat playing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNEKZGbmtSI. If you'll notice, both amps sound just as loud.

As for "harmonic over tones and wave shapes" that's another word for "distortion." A huge part of the "tube sound" is high levels of distortion. A review by Phil of the Ampeg Portaflex PF-50-T bass head (http://www.harmonycentral.com/expert-reviews/ampeg-portaflex-pf-50t-bass-head) gives the power spec as "50W RMS at 20% THD". When the review was originally posted I PM'ed Phil and asked about the 20% THD figure and he assured me it's not a typo. In comparison, a SS amp would have maybe 2% THD.

[Notes_Norton]

Watts do affect volume, but the rest of the design of the amp also has a lot to do with it.

 

Two speakers with different efficiency ratings can sound very different using the same guitar/amp.

 

Different amps of the same wattage can be designed very differently and deliver different volumes at the same settings.

 

Generally speaking, higher wattages can deliver more volume, but it's not linear and there are exceptions.

 

SPL meters are inexpensive. Set it at A weighting and Slow response and you get a good idea as to how loud you really are.

 

You can get an app for a phone, but in most cases they need to be calibrated, so spend a few bucks and get a dedicated meter.

 

We played a restaurant last night (our fist gig there). Did the sound check at 65-70db before the customers arrived and the owner was very happy with the volume (and the performance) and said he will definitely bring us back (even gave us a little extra money).

 

I played the wind synth for sax parts until later in the evening, simply because when I'm playing sax, I can play from ppp to fff but for rock songs, ppp just doesn't sound right.

 

Insights and incites by Notes

[DeepEnd]

Another factor I forgot to mention is that years ago some makers of audio gear installed volume pots that made things loud at a fairly low setting of the knob. A linear taper pot will do that. People who didn't know any better assumed that meant the amp was very "powerful" when it wasn't necessarily the case. My 65 Watt Fender SS Frontman gets deafening at a volume setting of about 3 so it must be very "powerful," far more powerful than a comparable 65 Watt tube amp that doesn't get as loud until 4 or 5, right? Or maybe my amp is just poorly designed. The fact that an amp has a particular volume pot taper or a bit more gain in the preamp doesn't mean it's more powerful or "more efficient" (which is another myth I've heard). Two amps producing one Watt are producing--wait for it--one Watt. Both will sound just as loud through identical speakers.

[DeepEnd]

Getting back to the original question, there's another question you need to ask first: Why are you there? If you're there to provide background music for dinner/bar patrons keep it audible but not loud enough to interfere with conversation. If, OTOH, you're there to perform (i.e., you're the center of attention), you can go a bit louder. Last year, my wife and I went to a concert by a local (St. Louis) R&B/Motown band and by intermission my ears were ringing.

[STM86]

Getting back to the original question' date=' there's another question you need to ask first: Why are you there? If you're there to provide background music for dinner/bar patrons keep it audible but not loud enough to interfere with conversation. If, OTOH, you're there to perform (i.e., you're the center of attention), you can go a bit louder. Last year, my wife and I went to a concert by a local (St. Louis) R&B/Motown band and by intermission my ears were ringing.[/quote']

 

Exactly. For me this can vary with the crowd night to night at the same places.

[daddymack]

funny, when I play sax, its always just pffffft!

[Bob Dey]

Volume certainly depends on the type of gig. We should (have to) make adjustments accordingly. Ever have a gig that requires more volume because the venue also has bands? Then you get a restaurant gig and forget that you're supposed to be barely audible, and the manager tells you to turn down!

 

I had one of those gigs yesterday playing for the red hat's ladies. They were into conversation which made me feel I had to play loud enough to be heard (and also the ability to hear myself). Big mistake on my part, the front table complained in no time. I turned my speaker toward my ear and turned down. They were happy by the end of the gig.

 

More speakers spread throughout a room can help sometimes. That way you won't have to turn up the frontals to get those in the back to hear. But to do it right, a device is needed to set a delay to stop comb filtering or other sound anomalies. This gets too complicated and isn't necessary unless it's a very large room. Threads on this can be found in the SR forums. I just wanted to be a guitar player

 

Why is it that bands don't consider keeping volume down enough so punters can converse? Is it just the guitar players or is it all band members than have to play loud?

[STM86]

Electronic kits have become more commonplace, but I have found the drummer to be at fault traditionally.

[Notes_Norton]

Volume is a drug for a musician

 

While playing, I look at the audience. How far are they leaning to converse with each other? This goes with what kind of a gig I'm doing. As DeepEnd pointed out. Why are you there? Sonic wallpaper? Dance? Dinner? Concert?

 

Insights and incites by Notes

[Shaster]

I am finding that in some of the lounges I play, the management is starting to want "young people's" volume. By that I mean too loud to comfortably talk unless you have the hearing of a twenty year old. It used to be that if you saw people having to lean in to talk, you knew you were too loud, or at least as loud as you should get. But that's changed a little, at least in my area.

 

I played one lounge that was desperate to be hip. They even removed "the" from their title, like all the hip places do these days; Ugly Tie instead of The Ugly Tie and so on. Anyway on some nights it was pretty dead but they still wanted me to play pretty loud. Loud enough for my ears to ring at the end of the night. When it was dead I just wouldn't turn up, and also played music appropriate to the vibe. We agreed to disagree and I don't currently play there.

 

Basically I would rather be a little too quiet than too loud, but I'm finding that these days, I'm having to turn up more than down. I might add that I also play in a seven piece party band with some of the loudest musicians in town, so I'm not afraid of volume, but only if it makes sense to me.

[pogo97]

A couple of years a go a buddy and I went to an open stage at a restaurant on the river. My mother used to take me out there when she was alive -- very square. But apparently not anymore.

 

Young people's volume!!!!!!! We stayed long enough to play, but it was actually painful to be in the room and we bailed soon after and went home. This was not a big (or full) room. People could have heard just fine at 1/3 the loudness. Heck, folks on the American side of the river could have heard.

 

I didn't understand. I still don't.

[Notes_Norton]

When I was in Top40 bands, the older musicians always told me that once you play the country club set, you'll never go back to the bars. And in discussion I noticed they worked fewer days, fewer hours per night and for more money per night. I can't see anything wrong with that (they didn't tell me about schlepping gear every day though).

 

I've been playing the yacht club, country club, retirement development market since the late 1980s. Around here it's the most dependable way to make a living. -- "Florida is for the newly wed and the nearly dead" - so we chose "God's Waiting Room" gigs. The singles bars started going DJ, the hotels put in giant TVs, and live bands only on the weekends for the rest, with no increase per night of pay. Country Clubs, Yacht Clubs and giant retirement developments hire bands and pay money.

 

In the 1980s and 90s, if you saw grey hair you played Glenn Miller / Duke Ellington era songs and kept the volume down around 70db if you wanted to work. A lot of good music that was technically challenging to play came out of the big band era. And we could sneak in a few real jazz things as long as they weren't too outside (Horace Silver, Dave Brubeck, Freddie Hubbard, etc.)

 

Then as the Baby Boomer generation started to retire, there was a bit of friction between the rock n rollers who wanted it louder and the swing era people who wanted it soft. Choosing material was difficult at the beginning of that era too, trying not to upset either generation.

 

Slowly the swing era people either died off or lasted in insignificant numbers to make an impact and the boomers wanted it loud. Around 100db or more. Now they've settled down a bit, but we still have to crank it up at times.

 

Slowly the newly wed and nearly dead thing has changed a bit. But it is still a retirement mecca. So the choice for the steadiest work is still the elder crowd.

 

I'm not afraid of volume either. I am particular about saving my hearing though. But I have custom fit, high fidelity, musicians ear plugs with inserts that can attenuate 15 or 25db, so we can go up to 110dba with no worry for me. I'd rather not though.

 

And back in the day when I was in the warm up band for headliners at concerts, things got pretty loud on stage, but most of the house volume was thankfully in front of us (thanks to feedback) because I wasn't wearing protection back then.

 

If it's too loud, you're too old - and I play for the too old generation.

 

I'm still doing music and nothing but music to make a living, and I have no intention of retiring.

 

Insights and incites by Notes