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steady as she goes


pogo97

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My singing partner and I are trying to build a niche following for ourselves. We've always sung older repertoire and lately it's been getting much older and more specific. For example, a "Great Gatsby" cruise where we'll play music up to but not after 1922. We're finding that people quite like our versions of old (1850 to whenever) songs and we enjoy singing them and I love rooting around looking for nuggets among the gravel. But it's been a long haul and, though we're certainly 'way up from previous years, we're still nowhere near self-sustaining.

 

We had a gig last Friday at a riverside restaurant and we did our usual mix of pre-1950 stuff and had a couple of requests for cards. Gananoque is about in the middle of the thousand islands and there are lots of rich summer residents who would like some different and classy entertainment for their parties. Very exciting. We live in a town of 5000 with a seasonal economy and the more you can do in summer, the better. Anyway, it's gratifying that we're finally starting to find an interested audience. We play restaurants and bars but it's not always a perfect fit -- some people come to a pub expecting a certain mix of songs and we don't do that. It's beginning to look like our niche is private parties, era-themed events, and maybe some corporate stuff. And arenas, of course.

 

 

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well, when you avoid mainstream music, as I do, it is ALL about the niche... finding people who dig your material. I get the same old bleaghhh face from so many people when I say I play in a 'blues band', for instance, but when hey come hear us, and the breadth of material from the 20s to the 70s, the reaction is almost always favorable except with young kids who just don't get it if it isn't angry, misogynistic, and urban.

I think in many ways eclecticism will never be commercial, simply by its nature, but there has to be more than one horse in the field to make it a race, right?

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As we started catering to the yacht club, country club, retirement community audiences, we found we no longer fit in the mainstream club or restaurant. It's OK with us as these gigs pay better and have fewer hours. It is quite seasonal though, we work a lot in the winter, and not much in the summer. But everybody in the 'hospitality industry' down here has the same condition.

 

Our material isn't as old as yours. When we started doing these kind of gigs we did a lot of "Big Band" tunes, Ellington, Dorsey, Shaw, Miller, etc., but as those people died off and baby boomers came in to fill the niche, we mostly do 50s through mid 70s now mixed with newer songs that the retirement crowd adopted.

 

Notes

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For example, a "Great Gatsby" cruise where we'll play music up to but not after 1922.

 

I think they way you've niched yourself is cool, but this is where I get lost a bit. Why the strict rule about dates? Especially dates that no one is left alive to remember? If there was a really good song that fit your style that your audiences would enjoy, would you really not play it because it came out in 1924?

 

 

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50s & 60s seem to go over better at nursing homes now days. Octagenarians were just kids in the '30s. Having a niche is great if it's marketable. Diane doesn't seem to mind you leaning on her shoulder :)

 

You're right about the age of the audience. Current octogenarians weren't even born in 1930. We're not really aiming at youthful nostalgia -- no-one left to be nostalgic over this stuff. My interest is in all the excellent and only-dimly-remembered songs that are out there if you're game to dig for them. I remember a lot of these songs but mostly from my parents (both long passed over to the shady side of the river) and also from their revival in the 40s and 50s. Some are now campfire songs or jingles or otherwise repurposed and some are simply forgotten. But there is gold in them there hills. It just takes searching and many hours of sometimes-dreary listening.

 

Diane and I have a simple professional relationship and we generally avoid contact. Just wise, I think, given that I'm married (to a woman 25 years Di's junior) with kids. So, no "Snuggled On Your Shoulder" shit here.

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You might also consider, with private events, "going all the way". I just saw some friends of mine playing a private event. The theme was the 1920's and all the ladies in the audience had flapper dresses on and the guys were in suits...The band had crisp white shirts, black pants, suspenders and the round dixieland hats. Now, other times, when they play a club or whatever, they wear regular clothes, and then other times they'll wear matching summer shirts.

 

So I'm thinking that you might want to have some promo that can plug you into theme parties re: corporate events. In fact, you might even consider providing a packaged theme party yourself, where you network with a local caterer and have a Roaring Twenties themed house party or private event. You could even find a local dance instructor and create a whole fun evening of music, dance lessons, and bathtub gin drinks. You could have two or three packages - an Ice Cream Parlour late 1800's, a 1930's Broadway theme, and your 1920's thing. You wouldn't need a ton of material as it would be more like an event, rather than background music. Find a fake Victrola that plays MP3's for the break music so you don't have to play all night, and/or get a piano student to play some classical music inbetween....

 

As I'm writing this, I'm thinking of some theme parties I could do myself.

 

 

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I think they way you've niched yourself is cool, but this is where I get lost a bit. Why the strict rule about dates? Especially dates that no one is left alive to remember? If there was a really good song that fit your style that your audiences would enjoy, would you really not play it because it came out in 1924?

 

This is a bit of a struggle between Di and I as well. But my figuring is that there's lot's of appropriate material that's within the right time, so why cheat? I understand that only I will actually know if a song could plausibly have been played in 1922 (1899 or 1921 is plausible, 1923 is not) but it's a matter of authenticity. And the easiest way to give the impression of authenticity is to be authentic.

 

On the other hand, according to http://thegreatgatsbyreadingmap.blogspot.ca/p/jazz-era-music.html, the novel "The Great Gatsby" is set specifically in 1922 but has references to the Charleston, which, as far as I can tell, was the rage in 1923. So I guess that makes me a bit of a Virgo.

 

Shaster: believe me, we're working toward the more complete theme idea but it takes time and money. Time we've got. We'll do a WWI show in August and Diane has arranged with the playhouse to get era-appropriate clothes. Unfortunately, we're still stuck with using a digital piano and the venue will likely call for a PA, which is inauthentic, but what's a working musician to do? We're getting well-paid for that gig and have discussed bringing in a barbershop quartet to open or maybe a Ukulele player or a dance instructor to lead people in doing the Texas Tommy and Walking the Dog. But it's looking like we'll actually get a percussionist. No modern kit -- it didn't exist -- but the percussionist we're talking to has heard and understood that it will have to be period (not antique, but not anachronistic--no hi hat for example). On the Gatsby cruise, we'll be playing on the upper deck after dinner. For the dinner hour, I've put together a playlist of top recordings from 1917 to 1922 to play through a powered speaker or the boat's PA. No Victrola yet. Some people will certainly dress up and I hope that the food is of the era. Not much to be done about the boat, of course, except to decorate it.

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This is a bit of a struggle between Di and I as well. But my figuring is that there's lot's of appropriate material that's within the right time' date=' so why cheat? I understand that only I will actually know if a song could plausibly have been played in 1922 (1899 or 1921 is plausible, 1923 is not) but it's a matter of authenticity. And the easiest way to give the impression of authenticity is to be authentic. [/quote'] Well, at the end of the day the most important thing is to have enough appropriate material that works, so working within your own defined restrictions is probably fine. Then again, if it's causing friction between you and your partner....

 

I'd just ask this question---so why cheat...whom? Only one who knows or cares about the authenticity of the DATE is you. The audience isn't interested in the specific date, they just want that Gatsby experience. And apparently even Fitzgerald understood it was more about setting the mood than being "authentic".

 

I didn't know that about Gatsby and the Charleston. I like that sort of trivia. But, I'm a geek too. I'd probably be the drunk guy at the show giving you a hard time about the dates being wrong! But what I've learned over the years is some things are more important to be authentic about than others. And I don't know if this happens....but if you're playing a Gatsby cruise, and you're not doing The Charleston, which was in the book and the movie version and is one of the few songs from the 20s that anyone still remembers....

 

....And if anyone is coming up and requesting it and you're turning it down because you're telling them that "actually, The Great Gatsby was set in 1922 and The Charleston came out in 1923 and Fitzgerald got it wrong..."

 

....well, that just MIGHT be carrying the geek thing just a bit too far....

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... 1923 and Fitzgerald got it wrong..."

 

....well, that just MIGHT be carrying the geek thing just a bit too far....

 

We'll do the Charleston. There's authentic and then there's bloody-minded. If they're calling it a Great Gatsby boat cruise and it's mentioned in the book, we'll do it. (We already know it anyway.) But we won't do "Sweet Georgia Brown," even though it's a dandy song that we already do, because it's from 1924. Instead, we'll do something like "Darktown Strutters Ball" which is also a dandy song that we already do and is from 1917. See, easy.

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That'll probably work. You know your gig better than me. Not trying to tell you what to do. Just offering a perspective.

 

But I know Sweet Georgia Brown just by the title. Everyone knows that song cuz it's the Globetrotter's theme. The other song I didn't know. I had to look it up and still didn't recognize it. But it sounds like a lot of other stuff from the era, so I can imagine it work for you. But I gotta think that SGB would work better simply because it's more recognizable.

 

. Cultural and musical eras rarely adhere to strict dates. There's usually a lot of overlap. And certainly there is overlap in the minds of people decades after the fact. You're there to entertain folks. Not give them a history lesson.

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Shaster: believe me, we're working toward the more complete theme idea but it takes time and money. Time we've got. We'll do a WWI show in August and Diane has arranged with the playhouse to get era-appropriate clothes. Unfortunately, we're still stuck with using a digital piano and the venue will likely call for a PA, which is inauthentic, but what's a working musician to do? We're getting well-paid for that gig and have discussed bringing in a barbershop quartet to open or maybe a Ukulele player or a dance instructor to lead people in doing the Texas Tommy and Walking the Dog. But it's looking like we'll actually get a percussionist. No modern kit -- it didn't exist -- but the percussionist we're talking to has heard and understood that it will have to be period (not antique, but not anachronistic--no hi hat for example). On the Gatsby cruise, we'll be playing on the upper deck after dinner. For the dinner hour, I've put together a playlist of top recordings from 1917 to 1922 to play through a powered speaker or the boat's PA. No Victrola yet. Some people will certainly dress up and I hope that the food is of the era. Not much to be done about the boat, of course, except to decorate it.

 

Sounds good. Funny I was thinking about a ukelele player to augment your show, but thought a piano student might be cheaper.

 

There are a few retro looking pices of gear that might be out by a couple of decades, but can still fit the bill.. Epiphone and Fender are making some retro guitar amps, that might even work for keys in small parties. There's probably other manufacturers as well. However, I know what you mean about money - on the cheap or free is the way to go, if at all possible.

 

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Here's our setlist for the Gatsby cruise. Nothing after 1922. Out of curiosity, which songs do you guys know on this list?

Alexander's Ragtime Band

For Me and My Gal

Bill Bailey

Frankie and Johnnie

Ballin’ the Jack

Beautiful Dreamer

Some Folks

Oh! Susanna

Old Folks At Home

Camptown Races

The Aba Daba Honeymoon

They Didn't Believe Me

I Ain't Got Nobody

Waiting for the Robert E Lee

Somebody Stole My Gal

I Sent My Wife to the Thousand Isles

Walking by the River

You Gotta Walk

Under the Double Eagle

 

Walkin' The Dog

Darktown Strutters Ball

K-K-K-Katy

Ain't we got fun

In The Good Old Summertime

Some Of These Days

Shine on, Harvest Moon

After You Get What You Want, You Don't Want It

When Father Papered the Parlour

I Belong to Glasgow

Yes! We Have No Bananas

You Made Me Love You

Chicago (That Toddlin' Town)

Saint Louis Blues

Moonlight Bay

I'm Just Wild About Harry

Hello! Ma Baby

Look for the Silver Lining

 

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Here's our setlist for the Gatsby cruise. Nothing after 1922. Out of curiosity, which songs do you guys know on this list?

Alexander's Ragtime Band

For Me and My Gal

Bill Bailey

Frankie and Johnnie

Ballin’ the Jack

Beautiful Dreamer

Some Folks

Oh! Susanna

Old Folks At Home

Camptown Races

The Aba Daba Honeymoon

They Didn't Believe Me

I Ain't Got Nobody

Waiting for the Robert E Lee

Somebody Stole My Gal

I Sent My Wife to the Thousand Isles

Walking by the River

You Gotta Walk

Under the Double Eagle

 

Walkin' The Dog

Darktown Strutters Ball

K-K-K-Katy

Ain't we got fun

In The Good Old Summertime

Some Of These Days

Shine on, Harvest Moon

After You Get What You Want, You Don't Want It

When Father Papered the Parlour

I Belong to Glasgow

Yes! We Have No Bananas

You Made Me Love You

Chicago (That Toddlin' Town)

Saint Louis Blues

Moonlight Bay

I'm Just Wild About Harry

Hello! Ma Baby

Look for the Silver Lining

 

Bolded titles are the ones I recognize by the song title. Very possible I'd recognize some of the others if I heard them.

 

Question about "authenticity" though. How likely is it that a band playing for a Gatsby-type crowd in 1922 would be pulling out old Civil War era stuff like Stephen Foster? I guess maybe if they were jazzing it up quite a bit.

 

Saving "Charleston" for the encore? :cool03:

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just a note: You guys are obviously not mathematicians. An octegenarian who is 85 years old would have been born in 1929....so in truth, about half of the octegenarians (85,86,87,88,89) would have been born before 1930...just keepin' it real for ya here...;)

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Question about "authenticity" though. How likely is it that a band playing for a Gatsby-type crowd in 1922 would be pulling out old Civil War era stuff like Stephen Foster? I guess maybe if they were jazzing it up quite a bit.

 

When I go out these days, I'm not surprised to hear songs from the 1950s and 60s mixed in with more recent material. There was a big resurgence in Stephen Foster material during the ASCAP strike in the 1940s for example, so no, I'm okay with that. In fact, my reference album is "Nelson Eddy Sings the Stephen Foster Songbook" from, I'm guessing, the 1940s.

 

Of course, the Gatsby crowd would be ultra-hip and the bands would be the best money could buy: not the case here, (more like geezers playing to geezers) but what can you do. They were SO hip that they were dancing to the Charleston which didn't become widely popular until 1923. So there you go.

 

 

Saving "Charleston" for the encore? :cool03:

 

Ready and waiting: we have more material than we need anyway, so it may get played or it may not. By the way, if someone actually ASKS for a song from after 1922 and we can perform it, we will. No sense being rude.

 

daddymack: you're right! Amazing, that arithmetic stuff!

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When I go out these days, I'm not surprised to hear songs from the 1950s and 60s mixed in with more recent material. There was a big resurgence in Stephen Foster material during the ASCAP strike in the 1940s for example, so no, I'm okay with that. In fact, my reference album is "Nelson Eddy Sings the Stephen Foster Songbook" from, I'm guessing, the 1940s.

 

 

 

 

But a resurgence in the 1940s isn't evidence of a popularity in 1922. Sure, you might hear old songs mixed with new today, but which ones is completely dependent on many factors. It's very common to hear Top 40 bands today play old 60s songs like "Brown Eyed Girl". But a Top 40 band in the 80s probably wouldn't have been caught dead playing that same tune. They'd have been laughed off the stage. OTHO, "Shout" worked well in both the 80s and today for its own reasons.

 

Not trying to be a dick, just pointing out that such a tight adherence to authenticity is fraught with minefields.

 

But I think your setlist looks pretty solid for what you're doing. How the audience responds will be the most important thing, of course. And I'm sure they'll like the Foster tunes just fine. Very few (if any) will have any idea which decade (let alone which year or month) they were written anyway. Tell 'em Camptown Ladies was written during WWII and they'd probably believe you.

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But a resurgence in the 1940s isn't evidence of a popularity in 1922. Sure, you might hear old songs mixed with new today, but which ones is completely dependent on many factors. It's very common to hear Top 40 bands today play old 60s songs like "Brown Eyed Girl". But a Top 40 band in the 80s probably wouldn't have been caught dead playing that same tune. They'd have been laughed off the stage. OTHO, "Shout" worked well in both the 80s and today for its own reasons.

I think a lot of this is perception...in the 80's , B.E.G. was a staple for cover bands here [at least ones who could muster halfway decent harmonies on the shalala parts]; 'Shout' was 'rediscovered' when 'Animal House' featured it in 1978...not that it isn't a great song to begin with, but it had run its course, the 60s retro aspect of AH allowed it to come back to life.

 

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I think a lot of this is perception...in the 80's , B.E.G. was a staple for cover bands here [at least ones who could muster halfway decent harmonies on the shalala parts]; 'Shout' was 'rediscovered' when 'Animal House' featured it in 1978...not that it isn't a great song to begin with, but it had run its course, the 60s retro aspect of AH allowed it to come back to life.

 

Some of it is probably regional of course too. Definitely Shout came back because of AH and has remained pretty popular ever since. I personally didn't play that song in the 80s, but it would have worked. BEG? Not so much. Around here it didn't start to resurge until the 90s, IIRC. Around the time Morrison's GH CD was released. But the Buffett cover was mid-80s, so I imagine it probably resurged earlier among the beach-going crowds.

 

My point being that simply because a song was written before a particular date doesn't make it appropriate for a "period/theme" gig. Especially one that is highly thematic.

 

If it were me, I'd -- without question -- be doing Charleston and Sweet Georgia Brown rather than the Stephen Foster stuff for a 20s themed party because they fit the theme so much better. To me something written one or two years after an arbitrary date that fits the theme makes much more sense than stuff from 60 years earlier.

 

But, obviously, it ain't my gig. Then again, the OP did ask for opinions and I gave mine. YMMV, as always.

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Not to mention occasional racist overtones in some of Foster's [and his contemporaries] songs...which were easily dismissed then, not so now.

I doubt one would find a publisher for a song called 'Dark Town Strutter's Ball', or 'Ol' Black Joe', or 'Massa's in De Cold, Cold Ground' today...

Oddly enough, I do Sweet Georgia Brown [1925 according to Wikipedia] in a medley with Up the Lazy River [Hoagy Carmichael, 1930] [the progressions have a nice overlap], but I'm not a stickler about period correctness...these fall under what I consider pre-War [or between wars].

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Not to mention occasional racist overtones in some of Foster's [and his contemporaries] songs...which were easily dismissed then, not so now.

I doubt one would find a publisher for a song called 'Dark Town Strutter's Ball', or 'Ol' Black Joe', or 'Massa's in De Cold, Cold Ground' today...

Oddly enough, I do Sweet Georgia Brown [1925 according to Wikipedia] in a medley with Up the Lazy River [Hoagy Carmichael, 1930] [the progressions have a nice overlap], but I'm not a stickler about period correctness...these fall under what I consider pre-War [or between wars].

 

As you can imagine, I'm acutely aware of the race issues. I spend a lot of time thinking about it and reading about it. It no longer offends me -- it's a sad statement about who we are but there's lots of those. I love "Old Black Joe" but won't do it. Up to the 20s and beyond, the "coon song" was a genre. Novelty or uptempo songs were most often cast as "coon songs" and would be sung blackface. It's what you did.

 

Sometimes it's just a formula thing and easy to fix up.

 

Arthur Collins' 1899 cylinder of "Hello Ma Baby" begins with this announcement: "Coon song 'Hello Ma Baby' sung by Arthur Collins." But remove the dialect and one coon reference and it's a damn fine song. I love that it skewers the telephone for technical glitches. You could easily substitute "Skype" and barely change a word.

 

[video=youtube;PA-f5PDIwFA]

 

Sometimes it's not so easy to fix. "Waiting for the Robert E. Lee" paints a stereotypical picture of happy stevedores who love to sing and dance and shuffle along. But it's such a great song I shrug it off and hope no one notices. So far, no one has mentioned it.

 

"Dark Town Strutters Ball" is a special case. The composer, Shelton Brooks, was of mixed native and black parentage from Amherstburg Ontario at the north end of the underground railway. He moved to Detroit as a teen and had a pretty successful musical career, writing DTSB and "Some of These Days" among other songs and playing the midwest backing up such people as Ethel Waters. His witty and pointed depiction of the "ball" is legitimate and informed and from, rather than about, that society. He was a huge fan (and impersonator) of Bert Williams. Here's Brooks singing another song in a similar vein:

 

[video=youtube;ImCByiNec6M]

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Gig report: the cruise was a success. I suspect we could have performed Elvis for all it mattered. The 65 guests were dressed up '20s style and enjoying each others' company and a (good but not especially 1922-style) dinner. Once dinner was over, one couple actually got up dancing. To "Hello Ma Baby" of all things. Then they all moved upstairs for closing contests and stuff.

 

There were two decks and we were set up in the lower/dining deck rather than the upper/drinking deck. The organisers decided that it wasn't worth moving us up and down as different parts of the evening happened on and we were fine with that. I'd prepared a CD of ~1922 recordings to play on the deck we weren't on, but their CD player was old and wouldn't play burned CDs.

 

Boats sure are loud! I was very glad we had our new 1000 watt EV speaker! No problems there.

 

Next gig will be a little more demanding. A museum gig commemorating WWI and set in 1919, but I think we have all the material necessary and we just need to give it some polish. The gig after that is prohibition-themed so it will be set in 1933 -- easy peasy.

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Here's our setlist for the Gatsby cruise. Nothing after 1922. Out of curiosity, which songs do you guys know on this list?

Alexander's Ragtime Band

For Me and My Gal

Bill Bailey

Frankie and Johnnie

Ballin’ the Jack

Beautiful Dreamer

Some Folks

Oh! Susanna

Old Folks At Home

Camptown Races

The Aba Daba Honeymoon

They Didn't Believe Me

I Ain't Got Nobody

Waiting for the Robert E Lee

Somebody Stole My Gal

I Sent My Wife to the Thousand Isles

Walking by the River

You Gotta Walk

Under the Double Eagle

 

Walkin' The Dog

Darktown Strutters Ball

K-K-K-Katy

Ain't we got fun

In The Good Old Summertime

Some Of These Days

Shine on, Harvest Moon

After You Get What You Want, You Don't Want It

When Father Papered the Parlour

I Belong to Glasgow

Yes! We Have No Bananas

You Made Me Love You

Chicago (That Toddlin' Town)

Saint Louis Blues

Moonlight Bay

I'm Just Wild About Harry

Hello! Ma Baby

Look for the Silver Lining

 

bold ones I recognized right off...

 

Sounds like aside from their equipment failure, you two had a good gig...how were the tips?

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bold ones I recognized right off...

 

Sounds like aside from their equipment failure, you two had a good gig...how were the tips?

 

So, you recognise the vast majority right off. Good! My Aunt Verna (89) recognised and could sing all of the pre-1922 songs we sang her at the cottage. Interesting because she was born in 1924.

 

Some Folks -- Stephen Foster cheery get happy song

The Aba Daba Honeymoon -- probably-racist "coon" song from 1914; re-recorded by Debbie Reynolds in the 50s

They Didn't Believe Me -- gorgeous 1914 Jerome Kern melody to dopey words

I Sent My Wife to the Thousand Isles -- we're in the Thousand Islands here or I wouldn't have learned this. 1916 Al Jolson vehicle that I do as ragtime

Walking by the River

You Gotta Walk -- both of these are mine, but I was in a space/time vortex when I wrote them

Under the Double Eagle -- march from 1902 -- you've almost certainly heard Bill Boyd's guitar version of it -- we scat the full Sousa version.

the next three are comic songs

After You Get What You Want, You Don't Want It -- 1920 Irving Berlin rather pointed advice to one's partner

When Father Papered the Parlour -- music hall from 1910 -- I'll bet SusieP knows it

I Belong to Glasgow -- Will Fyfe music hall from 1920 excellent drunk song

 

English Canadians are famous for not tipping. We got $20 from a lovely Quebecoise. And $300 for the gig.

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