Members llamastorm Posted March 15, 2009 Members Share Posted March 15, 2009 Hi folks! So I have a new rompler that has recently had some issues -- and I think I'm going to be able to return it. The question then comes up, what to replace it with. I really find that I like organ stuff most, and no rompler has ever really done it for me, so I'm learning on either a C1 or a XK-3C. Might as well get something that does something really well. Nord considerations: + two manuals for a lot cheaper + red + extra organ models which I might use occasionally (Vox, Farfisa) + allegedly very light - no drawbars ? not sure how good the keys are if they are like the Electro? ? is the overdrive any better than on the Stage? That overdrive was kind of brittle on the Stage, I thought. I really didn't like that aspect of it. ? I've read that the non-adjustable keyclick bothers some people (reviewers) ? Is it solid enough at 33 lbs for a keyboard of that size? Flexes/Wobbles any? XK-3C considerations + effects loop could have a lot of potential to be awesome, or at least interesting + drawbars (though do these hold up?) + better user interface with more customization options + says "Hammond" on it - extra manual will have to be acquired later ($$$), would have to play with one for a while possibly - not exactly easily car haulable with both manuals, should I want to do that ? what happens with the tubes die? Are they easily replaceable? ? potentially better overdrive (or not?) ? is the leslie SIM actually better or worse than the C1? I've seen plenty of youtube videos from both, including the C1/B3 comparison video that seems to make the C1 look pretty good ... but I am kind of craving the effects loop to play with (guitar envy, perhaps). Does anyone have any additional thoughts? Any comments on the build of one versus another? For the C1, Are the keys any better than on say, an Electro or a Nord Stage compact? Is the overdrive any better than was on the Stage? (The inability to have an effects loop on the C1 means I'm stuck with what it has or you have to stick the overdrive at the end of everything so it would need to be very good) For the 3C, anybody ever had to go through the exercise of replacing the tubes? With a dead tube can you just not use the tubes and it keeps working? Is the build any better than the XK-1 (which I /can/ see at a Guitar Center, etc)? Any reliability problems? I think I'm leaning on the Hammond, but I'm not sure. Any comments or extrapolations would be very useful New comments on sound? The last thread on I found on this (not here) was talking about the C1 and the XK-3, though I don't think the 3c was out yet then. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Nillerbabs Posted March 15, 2009 Members Share Posted March 15, 2009 Opinions http://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/1942687/1 Guess it's an onstage/offstage priority. While you're offstage, you'll love the C1 - it's easy to handle, is inexpensive and all. But as soon as you get on, you're stuck with buttons - or a set of MIDI-drawbars, if that's your thing. As to the Hammond. While you're on stage, you'll probably be so delighted that you'll forget every gripe - you've got drawbars, preset keys, better UI and so on. But when the gig is over... Well, you gotta carry it to the car. That's a lot of weight! And yea - twice as expensive as the C1, if you go dual manual. Sonically, I haven't heard that much of the XK-3c IRL. But I'm using the C1 engine, and it sounds pretty amazing. Of course it's not that tweakable, but I don't feel like I need to have an organ sounding like it's made in late october 1958, has lived its life in a smoking-studio etc. I'm not that specific. The overdrive has been improved - I find it much more appealing than the Stage overdrive. One thing I'm curious about too is the C1 keyboard. I've heard absolutely nothing about it - I wanna know if it's the Electro keybed or if it's lighter. Yea, and how it compares to the keyboards of the other clonewheels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mate_stubb Posted March 15, 2009 Members Share Posted March 15, 2009 Here's the deal. The pertinent question is: are you a real hammond player, or someone coming to organ new? If you have experience with a real hammond, and have learned to use drawbars in the middle of playing to shade your sound, you are much less likely to be satisfied with Nord's drawbuttons. Drawbars are by far a superior interface for quick precise control of multiple parameters. If you do not use those real time tone shading techniques, drawbuttons may work fine for you. They are adequate if somewhat clumsy for changing parameters, and have the advantage of showing current values for a preset. If you are used to a real hammond, the other controls - vibrato and percussion - are in the wrong place. If not, the new places can be learned and it won't bother you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members llamastorm Posted March 15, 2009 Author Members Share Posted March 15, 2009 Yeah, I read that thread The stage/concert/gig does not exist yet. Might later, I have no idea. Some fooling around with friends, sure. Glad to know they fixed up the OD on the original Stage -- they really needed to. The question now remains as to whether it's 10x better or not, as I thought the OD on the stage really sucked You have a good point about tweakability and not needing to simulate certain organs very much. FWIW, there are some good XK3 videos on keyboardmag.tv that I've just found, that are kind of interesting and do show some interesting things (like how the turning down the keyclick does cool things with the attack, and one really cool feature where you can do continuous Leslie effect speed with the mod wheel) I guess it depends on whether dual manual is actually that important for starters. If it's not the Hammond probably (?) wins. If it is, then the OD and effects on the stage becomes the question since you can't insert your own. Hmm.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members llamastorm Posted March 15, 2009 Author Members Share Posted March 15, 2009 If you have experience with a real hammond, and have learned to use drawbars in the middle of playing to shade your sound, you are much less likely to be satisfied with Nord's drawbuttons. Drawbars are by far a superior interface for quick precise control of multiple parameters. Point. I'm not a real Hammond player by any means, but I really like them. With the Nords, where the controls are does not matter so much. Realness of the drawbars kind of does. (They say this is about presets, but if they wanted to do that, motorized drawbars FTW) I had a Stage previously, and you're right, the lack of real drawbars when playing around had a major weirdness to it. I liked adjusting them on the fly a lot, (especially with sustained notes), though it was hard to do precisely. The stage let you set two positions and "morph" between them with the wheel but it looks like the C1 doesn't have that wheel, and the wheel was less controllable anyway. Think that kind of answers the questions then Thanks for being a good sounding board! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members XK-S -> 3300 Posted March 15, 2009 Members Share Posted March 15, 2009 I think I'm leaning on the Hammond, but I'm not sure. Any comments or extrapolations would be very useful New comments on sound? The last thread on I found on this (not here) was talking about the C1 and the XK-3, though I don't think the 3c was out yet then. Thanks! Regarding the effects loop, I recently was given an old M2. I put a line out on it that I run through a DI box with a pad switch and then into a mixer for some EQ. From there I run it into the effects return on my XK-3 and use the expression pedal of the XK-System to control the volume. I run the XK-3 and XK-3c/System into a 3300 Leslie. It sounds sweet. The XK-3/3c are pretty much indistinguishable from the M2 in basic tone. You can tweak the tonewheels on the XK-3c to match your own B3 or just your own taste if you want as well. Good Luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members llamastorm Posted March 15, 2009 Author Members Share Posted March 15, 2009 Wow, Great info. Thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members The Pro Posted March 16, 2009 Members Share Posted March 16, 2009 Lifelong B3 player here. I've owned an XK3c for about two months now - absolutely love it. I played a C1 before buying the XK3c and though the C1 has a respectable sound it's drawbar LED-thingies suck. I found them irritating. The XK3c is the real thing in every way with no compromises. The sound is warm and rich and it has all the growl and bite you could want. Easily heard in a band. The drawbars feel great, as does the keybed... I "play" the drawbars and constantly change the nuances of the sound as I play - only real drawbars let you do that right. The leslie effect is very lush and satisfying especially when combined with the vibrato effect. Great level of control as other have pointed out but the XK3c is also a well-thought out MIDI controller in it's own right. I really enjoy using a digital piano for the lower "manual" of the XK3c and having the ability to switch between the piano sound or a lower organ manual. And of course the XK3c offers a full set of dedicated drawbars for the lower manual no matter what controller you use. That makes the XK3c plus a digital piano a better and more versatile overall keyboard setup than a two-manual C1 Beyond all that the XK3c commands respect. It's a handsome instrument that looks as good as it sounds. Other musicians of all types ask me about the XK3c and I wind up talking about it a lot. I have no doubt at all that the XK3c is the organ all others will be compared to and measured against for years to come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members c4racer Posted March 16, 2009 Members Share Posted March 16, 2009 Lifelong B3 player here. I've owned an XK3c for about two months now - absolutely love it. I played a C1 before buying the XK3c and though the C1 has a respectable sound it's drawbar LED-thingies suck. I found them irritating. The XK3c is the real thing in every way with no compromises. The sound is warm and rich and it has all the growl and bite you could want. Easily heard in a band. The drawbars feel great, as does the keybed... I "play" the drawbars and constantly change the nuances of the sound as I play - only real drawbars let you do that right. I keep meaning to learn how to do that.... I am more of a piano / keyboard player myself - came to it originally from classical training on acoustic pianos only. I am learning how to play B3 now. It is really so different from piano. I picked up a used Korg CX-3 (MIDI version2) last year and have really enjoyed learning to do a few things. A huge part of it is the true organ keyboard and action. That really makes it much easier to play than trying to do it on a fully weighted digital piano keyboard. I have mostly used switching between fast and slow leslie to color / shape the sound as I play. So far I have been using the presets instead of learning to use the drawbars. I really need to take some time and learn the different drawbar and percussion settings and all that so I can start developing my own tones. Then I can play with drawbars to shape sound as I'm playing. I really should get a B3 how-to book if such a thing exists. I know theory and scales and all the basics of piano / keyboard playing, but I don't know all the tricks to make that classic B3 rock and roll sound work. I pick up a few things here and there, but I really need to dig into it deeper. I have been without a steady rock band project to play keys for (I play drums in another band) for a little while, but now I have something to sink my teeth into a bit - original project. But I strongly believe if you want to do it right and develop a truly authentic B3 organ playing sound and style, a full tonewheel clone is the best tool for that endeavor. If you don't really care so much about that and are content to have some nice sounding organ sounds to fill in where needed and round out your overall sound, plus could use some of the other sounds on the upper board - maybe the C1 is a good option. I personally am interested in rock and blues where the B3 is really an important part of the keyboard sound, so for me the tonewheel clone is the way to go. If I could afford one, I would grab the new Hammond - but for now the Korg is a good choice for me and gives me the opportunity to develop B3 skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mate_stubb Posted March 16, 2009 Members Share Posted March 16, 2009 Watch this, and despair like the rest of us. [YOUTUBE]vqSLoxwkCYE[/YOUTUBE] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members augerinn Posted March 16, 2009 Members Share Posted March 16, 2009 I am learning how to play B3 now. It is really so different from piano. You're learning then. Synth is also a completely different beast. As are the different shades of EPs (Rhodes, Wurli, Clav, Etc) My passion far exceeds my knowledge and ability on all of these instruments... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members XK-S -> 3300 Posted March 16, 2009 Members Share Posted March 16, 2009 Here is a Tony Monaco video: He doesn't just play the organ, he and the organ work together as a team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Outkaster Posted March 16, 2009 Members Share Posted March 16, 2009 If you want to hear the XK-3C, listen to this song on our page. It is the second track Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members XK-S -> 3300 Posted March 16, 2009 Members Share Posted March 16, 2009 The XK-3C is as good as anything out there and I would put it up against clone. It is not a popular clone out there and I don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dan88z Posted March 16, 2009 Members Share Posted March 16, 2009 If you want to hear the XK-3C, listen to this song on our page. It is the second track Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Aanalogaddict Posted March 16, 2009 Members Share Posted March 16, 2009 If you plan on using another keyboard too, the form factor may be of importance. Stacking a 2-manual organ (although lightweight) over another keyboard can be awkward, and placing the C1 underneath an 88-note controller isn't something I'd recommend either. Making the XK3c work in a multi keyboard setup is a breeze, and you could get the XK3c first and add the lower manual later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members c4racer Posted March 20, 2009 Members Share Posted March 20, 2009 OK - that is sick. I have zero skills. I suck. Whenever I see this kind of stuff I often vacillate between despair and inspiration. Mostly despair for this one, although I may have picked up a few tricks I can incorporate into my simple suck-ass playing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Nillerbabs Posted March 21, 2009 Members Share Posted March 21, 2009 I actually don't understand why Nord or some other company starts making really compact dedicated MIDI drawbars - no sounds, just drawbars. Given the amount of Electro's out there, you'd think there's a market to fill up. I don't want to bring a Voce - it's just too big and bulky and wouldn't fit in with me, but if someone made a really compact drawbar solution - I'd be on it in an instant! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members The Pro Posted March 21, 2009 Members Share Posted March 21, 2009 This is a picture of my Hammond XK3c organ over my Kawai ES4 piano. It's the rig I described in my post above (using a digital piano as the "lower manual" for the organ) and it's the rig I perform out with mostly right now. Thought you guys might enjoy a little XK3c porn! These keyboards are sitting on a QuikLok Monolith M-92 stand which I have modified by "chopping" about two inches out of the upper tier supports to give closer proximity between the piano and the organ. It makes the keyboards easier to play when they are close like that and it looks better from the audience perspective too. One cool trick I use is to send the stereo audio from the XK3c into the audio inputs of the ES4... on stage that gives me audio monitoring of the two keyboards from the front and stereo monitoring from the back from my MS KP-200s for a "surround-sound" effect. At home I use the speakers of the ES4 for practicing with the piano and organ. Internal speakers on a digital piano are very handy. Sweetness abounds. This rig sounds every bit as good as it looks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kingvavy Posted March 23, 2009 Members Share Posted March 23, 2009 Why does everyone with a beef against Nord harp about the drawbars so much??? Everyone on this site is basically saying "well, nord is out of the running because "serious organ players" can't play without drawbars..." Sorry, if you're a "serious organ player" (whatever that means, if you need to cling to such things...) you'd think having 2 manuals would be a far more important consideration in terms of proper organ technique than having drawbars. I would rather play a cheap transistor organ with two manuals than a slick state of the art clone that only has one manual. (i.e. hammond xk-3c) I never understood how people can properly play organ on a single manual instrument? It would be like playing piano with just your right hand. Also, having a midi cable connected to your lower digital piano just does not cut it, especially if your argument revolves around the "aesthetics and layout" of a proper B-3 The point is this: if you are a working musician, and you play 4-5 nights a week, you cannot carry a full xk system, and a digital piano, and stands, and amps... The ability to carry a dual manual organ under one arm is fantastic. Nord C1 all the way! One more gripe about hammond....what about all the people who went out and dropped $2000+ dollars on the previous hammond xk-3? Oops, hammond got it wrong the first time, so lets pay Tony Monaco a wad of cash to tell people to go out and give us another try with a "new updated" system....what a joke. At least with Clavia, all you have to do is download the latest OS, not drop another $2000+ dollars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Outkaster Posted March 23, 2009 Members Share Posted March 23, 2009 Why does everyone with a beef against Nord harp about the drawbars so much??? Everyone on this site is basically saying "well, nord is out of the running because "serious organ players" can't play without drawbars..." Sorry, if you're a "serious organ player" (whatever that means, if you need to cling to such things...) you'd think having 2 manuals would be a far more important consideration in terms of proper organ technique than having drawbars. I would rather play a cheap transistor organ with two manuals than a slick state of the art clone that only has one manual. (i.e. hammond xk-3c) I never understood how people can properly play organ on a single manual instrument? It would be like playing piano with just your right hand. Also, having a midi cable connected to your lower digital piano just does not cut it, especially if your argument revolves around the "aesthetics and layout" of a proper B-3 The point is this: if you are a working musician, and you play 4-5 nights a week, you cannot carry a full xk system, and a digital piano, and stands, and amps... The ability to carry a dual manual organ under one arm is fantastic. Nord C1 all the way! One more gripe about hammond....what about all the people who went out and dropped $2000+ dollars on the previous hammond xk-3? Oops, hammond got it wrong the first time, so lets pay Tony Monaco a wad of cash to tell people to go out and give us another try with a "new updated" system....what a joke. At least with Clavia, all you have to do is download the latest OS, not drop another $2000+ dollars. Answer me this; have you played a real Hammond? Do you have experience with a console? Drawbars are a huge thing for people. I could play with an XK system anytime and would if I had the lower manual. Why not? I play about 100 gigs a year. Look at my rig on the left. That is an old picture but that is a typical set up for me in the Reggae band. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members The Pro Posted March 23, 2009 Members Share Posted March 23, 2009 The Xk3c has several hardware changes over the XK3, including a whole new bank of controller switches and knobs. If Nord did a similar upgrade to any of their keyboards it'd have to be released as a new instrument like the XK3c was. The ability to use the XK3c as a single manual or dual manual makes it more versatile than the C-1 which comes in dual manual only. As a pianist and an organist I like having the option to use a organ/piano dual manual setup... that's why I created it. Share pix of your organ rig kingvavy... if you have one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mitch Towne Posted March 23, 2009 Members Share Posted March 23, 2009 The Xk3c has several hardware changes over the XK3, including a whole new bank of controller switches and knobs. If Nord did a similar upgrade to any of their keyboards it'd have to be released as a new instrument like the XK3c was. That's true, but aren't the brains of the unit basically the same? Why couldn't Hammond have offered some sort of software upgrade that would have, at the very least, given XK-3 users the updated tonewheel set or the increased tweakablity of the chorus vibrato? From what I have read, those are the main "under-the-hood" differences between the Xk3 and Xk3c. Please correct me if I am wrong. One other thing that I think warrants mentioning...everyone seems to equate playability to the existence of drawbars, but no one ever mentions the action of the keys and the response of the sound engine. One of the reasons I like my Nord Electro 3 better than my Xk-3 is the action and how the trigger points interact with the sound. I went so far as to have the action on my XK-3 altered because it was just too high and, if a key was let up too quickly, it did a double triggering thing that was extremely unmusical. I know there are plenty of people who love how the Xk series plays, and that's great. But not every measure of playability depends on the drawbars...at least not for me. The most important measure is how easy it is to get what is in my head out of the speaker, and the Nord gets me there in ways that the Xk3 never did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mate_stubb Posted March 23, 2009 Members Share Posted March 23, 2009 One more gripe about hammond....what about all the people who went out and dropped $2000+ dollars on the previous hammond xk-3? Oops, hammond got it wrong the first time, so lets pay Tony Monaco a wad of cash to tell people to go out and give us another try with a "new updated" system....what a joke. At least with Clavia, all you have to do is download the latest OS, not drop another $2000+ dollars. Now this is just silly. Nord is great with updating OSes, better than most. But can I put the organ engine from the C1 in my Stage? Nope. Will my Stage ever hold as many instruments at the same time as the Stage EX? Nope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Outkaster Posted March 23, 2009 Members Share Posted March 23, 2009 That's true, but aren't the brains of the unit basically the same? Why couldn't Hammond have offered some sort of software upgrade that would have, at the very least, given XK-3 users the updated tonewheel set or the increased tweakablity of the chorus vibrato? From what I have read, those are the main "under-the-hood" differences between the Xk3 and Xk3c. Please correct me if I am wrong.One other thing that I think warrants mentioning...everyone seems to equate playability to the existence of drawbars, but no one ever mentions the action of the keys and the response of the sound engine. One of the reasons I like my Nord Electro 3 better than my Xk-3 is the action and how the trigger points interact with the sound. I went so far as to have the action on my XK-3 altered because it was just too high and, if a key was let up too quickly, it did a double triggering thing that was extremely unmusical. I know there are plenty of people who love how the Xk series plays, and that's great. But not every measure of playability depends on the drawbars...at least not for me. The most important measure is how easy it is to get what is in my head out of the speaker, and the Nord gets me there in ways that the Xk3 never did. Mitch that is my big bitch with Hammond, lack of software upgrades. They are so slow to do anything about it and that is why I am sure their market share is probably not as good with the Nord stuff. The XK-3c is at least an improvement with the Leslie sim and it is a different keybed also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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