Yamaha Motif SYNTHESIS---Does it Exist, Why can't I hear changes in edit mode?

[dreamstasis80]

Is there a secret to getting the patch edits I do in master mode to remain audible in pattern mode?

 

I keep finding that when I edit a preset and save it to a User Bank-once I select the voice in pattern mode it defaults back to all it's original parameter values. ALso-

 

How come there are no audible changes as I scroll through waveforms and synth parameters in the patch edit mode?

 

I know waveform changes can be very subtle to the ear, but when I change a synth patch from a SIne to a square it should sound different right?! EVen when I scroll from one LFO rate all the way to the last value, I never hear anything change when I go to edit mode. I previously owned a kurzweil k2000 when I set up a synth patch on the kurzweil it was clearly "customized" you knew immediately if you had a square, sine, wrap, sine+ etc... and patches could easily be inserted into song mode. I am getting very frustrated with my Motif...I like the presets/sequencer on it but I have kind of exhausted their usefulness in terms of composition (I can't rock out to SpaceLead forever!) and now want to get serious about the guts of the board, it's sampling capabilities, vocoder expressions, and most inportantly SYNTHESIS! (I realize this isn't a Waldorf or Access here but c'mon!) I want to take some of the preset synth patches and crank the gain stages, contort some waveforms, and get some nasty, funky, synth "doomsday" fidelity out of this Yamster. WHat am I doing wrong, not doing, or have I bought a DAW with a useless edit mode that won't let me prepare any patches for its song mode???? send help!

[mrcpro]

 

How come there are no audible changes as I scroll through waveforms and synth parameters in the patch edit mode? I know waveform changes can be very subtle to the ear, but when I change a synth patch from a SIne to a square it should sound different right?! EVen when I scroll from one LFO rate all the way to the last value, I never hear anything change when I go to edit mode. I previously owned a kurzweil k2000 when I set up a synth patch on the kurzweil it was clearly "customized" you knew immediately if you had a square, sine, wrap, sine+ etc... and patches could easily be inserted into song mode. I am getting very frustrated with my Motif...I like the presets/sequencer on it but I have kind of exhausted their usefulness in terms of composition (I can't rock out to SpaceLead forever!)

 

 

Unlike any other synth manufacturer known to man, Yamahas don't edit in real time. You must repeatedly strike a key over and over in order to hear your edits.

 

It's stupid, retarded, and anal. It's Yamaha.

[dreamstasis80]

What about use of edited patches in "Pattern" Mode? Once I save a patch to a USER bank I should have access to the customized sound for performance and recording right?

 

Also-Are you saying there is no way to "preview" any deep patch editing (using the actual EDIT button, not just the knob assigned parameters)...but yes the patches will switch up from say a SINE to a SQUARE? Like I was saying, when I go into the edit screen and change up waveforms I can't hear any noticeable audio changes. if nothing can be heard in the edit window, do I then just "guess" what the patch will sound like, edit and save, then go back and listen to the patch to hear changes in MASTER or PATTERN?...is that how it's really done? I just can't imagine trying to customize sounds from the edit window if I can't listen to what changes I am making (at all)!!! But I will still somewhat be relieved if the changes I make in EDIT mode can be heard elsewhere on the board-My point was that when switching waveforms in the EDIT window there were NO AUDIBLE changes in the tone as I scrolled thru the waveform types and jammed on the keyboard to listen-will I hear changes to the patch after I save and exit the edit screen-?????

[asynchro_nous]

I'm not sure what the problem is, and going from one mode to another on the Motif blows big time in terms of flow (ain't none), but nevertheless, in voice edit mode you can do all kinds of crazy and beautiful stuff with your patches and hear the changes as you do it.

 

Unfortunately, you have to do all your permanent voice edits in voice edit mode first, save the patch, and then use it in the other modes.

 

An awfully disruptive system, Yamaha.

 

(A much better system would be one that allows you to do voice editing in any mode)

[dreamstasis80]

so here's what I've been doing...I enter MASTER or VOICE mode...press EDIT...now I see a shot of the waveform and some parameters like LFO rates etc...I'll strike a key to see what we have to work with...then change a waveform...strike a key again...no audible difference. weird eh? Is it imperative to be in a certain mode when editing? AM I going to the right edit screen? DAmn I am eager to start synthesizing again (poor old kurzweil fell down a flight of stairs)-thanks for all the help

[Allerian]

Thanks for this thread. I have often wondered if I "wasn't trying hard enough" to edit on my Motif.

[dreamstasis80]

Tell me about your experiences with soundcraft on the motif....Yea...I know the Motif isn't a "proper" synth...but it should let you customize the soundbanks and at least let you substitute some of your own creations for the rather vanilla synth presets. I need a bell like square synth and some distorted/louder/boosted pads,,, and I haven't been able to pull it off yet. I might trade my Motif in for a K2600 (kurzweil) If I can't get more out of it!

[mildbill]

 

... How come there are no audible changes as I scroll through waveforms and synth parameters in the patch edit mode? I know waveform changes can be very subtle to the ear, but when I change a synth patch from a SIne to a square it should sound different right?! EVen when I scroll from one LFO rate all the way to the last value, I never hear anything change when I go to edit mode ....

 

 

 

What do you mean 'when I go to edit mode'? Go to it from what?

 

You should be doing editing on a voice in 'voice edit' mode.

When you have selected an 'element', you will be able to hear any changes you make, such as changing waveforms, lfo speed/depths - whatever. But as stated, you have to re-trigger a note before you'll hear the changes.

You don't have to save the sound first to hear changes.

What will help though, is if you turn off any other active elements besides the one you're working on.

If you have 4 active elements sounding, and are only changing one of those elements, the other 3 can overpower it to the point where you can't clearly hear what it's doing.

[mildbill]

.... I might trade my Motif in for a K2600 (kurzweil) If I can't get more out of it!

 

 

 

If you can figure out Kurzweil's stuff, you'll be able to figure out your Motif.

I prefer my K2600 though.

[asynchro_nous]

If you're in voice edit mode and you can't hear waveform changes, it's as mildbill said -- you are listening to the wrong element (each voice use up to eight elements which can be configured in various ways) or you are working with an element that is turned off (on the oscillator page).

 

Honestly, for a PCM based machine the Motif XS allows for extensive patch editing (and very nice sounding results), despite the workflow problems when going between modes (and often within a mode).

 

Sorry for all of the parentheses (it had to be done).

[kilon]

Motif is an excellent machine, and have some tools hiding under the hood that need a careful look.

 

One of them is Voices. Voices are of two kind a) regular voices and b) mixing voices

 

So that means that mixing voices seperate to regular voices you find even in master mode , mixing voices are seperate and independent. They are stored in mixing mode and then saved with your song or pattern. Thats a great way to protect your voices and give you seperate storage for voices assigned to a specific song or pattern.

 

So my advice to you is patience and visit the excellent forum at www.motifator.com they will help you alot and you will find some excellent sound synthesists in there.

 

Motif has not the depth of the Kurzweil or Access. It simple 4 layer , regular subtractive with a 4 slot mod matrix. But then if you compare a Virus with a blofeld , blofeld wins hands down in terms of depth but then it lacks knobs.

 

Each synth has its pros and cons , VAST si certainly alot better than motif or virus as a synth engine, however it lacks the excellent samples of motif.

[evildragon]

however it lacks the excellent samples of motif.

 

I beg to differ. Sure, they're old, but they sounded pristine 20 years ago, and they still sound pristine even today. That's quality sampling for ya

 

Sure, Kurzweil needs some newer samples, and those are currently in production.

[kilon]

I beg to differ. Sure, they're old, but they sounded pristine 20 years ago, and they still sound pristine even today. That's quality sampling for ya Sure, Kurzweil needs some newer samples, and those are currently in production.

 

i have compared my motif es6 to a friends k2660 ,many times, in the acoustic department there is no comparison , it just dead obvious that motif samples are much better. Especially the brass sound are lacking behind. I hear people say that pianos are the best, I guess its a matter of taste. But objectively the samples do not have the harmonical content to reproduce accoustic instruments realistically. Its clear that big compromises were made and then attempted to fix them with some careful programming.

 

The same however applies for the PC3x but reversed ,it give even motif xs a run for its money especially pianos and violins are breathtaking. Even though in pc3x it is not only the samples, it helps that VAST is vast....

 

I dont know however what would happen if someone set a crusade on K2260 to make the best acoustic sounds. Because Vast is not just a rompler engine like Motif, it can do fm, additive and many many layers and insane routing. I think it is very possible indeed, but takes time and effort.

[dreamstasis80]

I hate to insist that something is still wrong here but I went home last night to try some patch editing and...1) I guess I am still missing something basic. Where do I go to access the main synth? "Voice Edit" mode is where people are saying to go...is this simply a matter of pressing the "VOICE" button...selecting a patch and then pressing "EDIT" to begin editing the voice? this is what I have been doing but I have yet to see anything "deep" or intriguing... nothing resembling layer edits, subtractive synths, matrix shaping etc. It seems all the voice edit mode wants to let me do is select a chorus and reverb type and a waveform type and adjust the arpeggio. Am I missing a screen or two? WHere does all the real sound shaping go down?

[evildragon]

...and this is exactly why any other synth manufacturer is better than Yamaha in UI department. Except Roland

[asynchro_nous]

 

Motif has not the depth of the Kurzweil or Access. It simple 4 layer , regular subtractive with a 4 slot mod matrix.

 

 

Just to clarify, the Motif XS (as opposed to previous incarnations) has an eight element per voice architecture with wave cycle and key off/switch modes that allow for some very nice textures.

 

It also has a six slot mod matrix which is fairly basic, but can be assigned to each of the eight elements to allow for some interesting modulations.

[asynchro_nous]

 

I hate to insist that something is still wrong here but I went home last night to try some patch editing and...1) I guess I am still missing something basic. Where do I go to access the main synth? "Voice Edit" mode is where people are saying to go...is this simply a matter of pressing the "VOICE" button...selecting a patch and then pressing "EDIT" to begin editing the voice? this is what I have been doing but I have yet to see anything "deep" or intriguing... nothing resembling layer edits, subtractive synths, matrix shaping etc. It seems all the voice edit mode wants to let me do is select a chorus and reverb type and a waveform type and adjust the arpeggio. Am I missing a screen or two? WHere does all the real sound shaping go down?

 

 

Okay, I'm beginning to wonder if you're serious here...

 

Just in case you are:

 

Hit the "Voice" button

 

Hit the "Edit" button

 

You will by default be in "Common Edit" mode

 

To edit individual elements, hit the "1" button for the editing pages for element number one, the "2" button for element number two.......

[mildbill]

.. Where do I go to access the main synth? "Voice Edit" mode is where people are saying to go...is this simply a matter of pressing the "VOICE" button...selecting a patch and then pressing "EDIT" to begin editing the voice? ....

 

 

 

This is why people say Yamaha's user interface is horribly unintuitive.

 

I'm speaking about a Motif ES rack here, but the others are probably similar. When I want to edit those parameters, I press 'voice', then 'edit', and that will get you some common parameters, but to get to the 'elements', I have to press a button labeled 'Mute/Select/Enter'.

 

After doing that, the buttons below can be used to turn elements on or off (mute), the 'page' button will scoll through the parameters for the elements and so on.

 

Yamaha manuals are pretty horrible, but you're going to have to spend some serious time with the manual for it to make sense. There are some things that just aren't obvious and you'd probably never guess them just by looking at the synth.

 

I like the Yamaha sounds/samples, but don't like the relatively limited editing options available for them.

 

(Get the Kurzweil).

[evildragon]

Just to clarify, the Motif XS (as opposed to previous incarnations) has an eight element per voice architecture with wave cycle and key off/switch modes that allow for some very nice textures. It also has a six slot mod matrix which is fairly basic, but can be assigned to each of the eight elements to allow for some interesting modulations.

 

PC3 has 32 layers per program, and each can be used in various configurations, cascaded one into another, or one into several, or several into one, or whatever you wish. Every parameter of each layer gets a keytracker and velocity tracker for "free" (not eating up other modulation slots), and every parameter gets TWO of their own modulation slots (one "short", and one "long" which is more configurable).

 

That has GOT to be the most flexible modulation system in any synthesizer ever, laughing at all others.

[The Pro]

Interesting that most of the people here that are touting how great the Kurzweils are don't actually own one.

 

At least Yamaha has it's own forums for this kind of discussion at www.motifator.com.

[dreamstasis80]

Does anyone like the "Bleep-Bloop" synth sounds found in songs like Beck's "My Summer Girl" and Outkast's "Hey Yah" (or whatever that Hey Yah pop hit was called) Very punchy, almost fuzzy, nearly chip-tune sounding tones? Are these sounds attainable on a Motif? My Kurzweil would produce them sometimes if I dug deep into the patch editing...(anybody ever downloaded the depche mode patches?) Take a cool patch, crank the gain, and maybe used a waveform like the shape and hold or wrap. Results would be a patch that could cut through drums, bass, and pads in the mix like a knife. Something that could really truly stand out as both a percussive element and a synth lead. I've downloaded the vintage synths patches from motifator.com and found the Pro-One sample and the MiniMoogs to be satisfying...almost...I'm guessing that these Yamaha patches are trying to show off the capacity of the board and that there's not much more editing I could do to them to get them to be louder, punchier, brighter, more overdriven-fuzzier etc. It seems like the Kurzweil would truly let you "mangle" your patches-or do outrageous things that you wouldn't normally think you could use musically- take a basic element and transform it into something monstorous, distorted, and good- I want to see if the Motif can do the same or at least compete for what it is a ROMpler with some synth functionality.

 

 

Yea...I just wanted to run everything I was doing by this forum a few times-I may have re-treaded (re-threaded?) a few times but It helps me to hash everything out a couple of times. I think I am beginning to understand what I need to do to edit my patches. I am going to go home after work and take all this advcie and see if I can get the Motif to do its thing. Is there a way to turn the gain up on the patches? I always did this on the Kurzweil and created some killer fuzztones. I really like LOUD, FUZZY/OVERDRIVEN, or SPARKLING/CHORUSEY synth sounds...any pointers on how to acheive synth nirvana on the motif?

 

I also agree that the samples on the Motif sound better than the Kurzweils especially the brass. And the electric pianos great esp. the DX stuff

[mildbill]

Interesting that most of the people here that are touting how great the Kurzweils are don't actually own one. At least Yamaha has it's own forums for this kind of discussion at www.motifator.com .

 

 

 

I only see a couple people here talking about Kurzweil - myself and evildragon.

And I own 2 Kurzweils. :poke:

 

 

 

And ya, xmlguy, I was going to suggest using the editor too.

The keyboards are bad enough, but the rack unit is a real PITA to edit from the front panel.

[evildragon]

That doesn't mean one wouldn't own a Kurzweil soon enough, The Pro

[Tomkeen]

Kurzweil PC3 is great - I own one.

 

So there u_u

[mildbill]

About the Yamaha editors. I probably should say to the OP, if you have access to a computer and don't mind using editing programs for your gear, then give the editing program a try.

 

But as for Yamaha, I'd say it would be better if they could make their gear easier to use (more intuitive).

There's lots of times when you don't have access to a computer, and some people just plain don't like using them, and would rather edit the piece directly.

Making the synth difficult to use by having arcane procedures such as combination button presses that aren't directly labeled and have to be found in a manual makes it very unenjoyable to use as a stand alone piece of gear.