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  • #46


    ....How big a market is there really for alternative synth engines in a single instrument? Kronos will be the litmus test..




    That's my thought too. While overall, the market is pretty weak right now, lots of people have been asking for, and looking forward to something like this.
    If the sales that do occur swing to the Kronos over the other models, it might pave the way.

    Comment


    • #47
      The programming hassles with them were related to being part of the XG product line, I think the addition to pro instruments was a bit of an afterthought.
      Exactly. PLG100 boards were made to be cheap and self-containing synthesizer boards complete with MIDI and effects, as they were intened for the Japanese "desktop music" modules like MU-100/128. Thus the use of simple serial bus - you send MIDI commands to the board and get stereo audio in return. All editing was supposed to be done with PC software, the infamous XGWorks.

      When the sales didn't materialize, they decided to offer them in their professional synth line, with very few changes (I recall that PLG150 series boards only differ by having the ability to save/load the voice edit buffer, not needed on the PLG100 series as XG songs were supposed to contain SysEx data at the start), and Yamaha just didn't have the desire or resources to implement full editing in the host OS. In the end, they even had to invent AN-200 and DX-200 grooveboxes just to sell out the remaining stock of PLG boards!

      On the other hand, the MOSS/Z1 board for Trinity/Triton was fully integrated with the host, and hence it was far more popular AFAIK.


      The standalone AN and VL instruments obviously didn't really find their market either.


      VL (1993) was definitely way too complex for the typical keyboard player - even though the instruments did have keyboard-only banks, you really needed to master the breath controller to fully unleash the potential, which wasn't an easy task (probably could have been somewhat easier for me since I have a brass player background, but to pity I had nowhere to try it in my location).

      As for VP (1994), it was obviously much overpriced, over

      Comment


      • #48
        ....

        VL (1993) was definitely way too complex for the typical keyboard player - even though the instruments did have keyboard-only banks, you really needed to master the breath controller to fully unleash the potential, which wasn't an easy task (probably could have been somewhat easier for me since I have a brass player background, but to pity I had nowhere to try it in my location)...




        I don't think it's difficult to use. I started getting really good results with a breath controller in a very short amount of time.
        It is difficult to edit though. There were 'easy' and 'expert' editors available from windsynth.org years back.
        The easy one was no problem. But when using the expert editor, it was relatively easy to 'break the model' - resulting in no sound, and also a fair amount of head scratching.

        You're right though, in that it probably required a bit more effort to get really good results than most people are willing to put in nowadays.

        Comment


        • #49
          The reappearance of high-dollar items in such a niche market shows that there has been some recovery. The DOW was around 14000 when the market tanked and fell to around 8000...I lost a good third of my savings. In the interveening years, the DOW has crawled back to almost 12000 and my savings are almost back to where they were before the downturn. Forget what the pundits and politicians say - the numbers tell the story of economic recovery in no uncertain terms!

          Now that folks are beginning to have disposable income again, expect Yamaha and Roland to respond in kind to the gauntlet Korg has thrown down. I'm eager to see what their "supersynths" look like.
          <div class="signaturecontainer">Best Regards, James<br />
          --<br />
          <b>I have cast fire upon the world and I am guarding it until it blazes.</b><br />
          <br />
          My Newest CD &quot;Stealing The Sun&quot;: <a href="http://carbon111.bandcamp.com/" target="_blank">http://carbon111.bandcamp.com/</a><br />
          <br />
          Carbon111 Website: <a href="http://www.carbon111.com" target="_blank">http://www.carbon111.com</a><br />
          <br />
          Carbon111 Blog: <a href="http://carbon111.blogspot.com" target="_blank">http://carbon111.blogspot.com</a></div>

          Comment


          • #50
            The reappearance of high-dollar items in such a niche market shows that there has been some recovery. The DOW was around 14000 when the market tanked and fell to around 8000...I lost a good third of my savings. In the interveening years, the DOW has crawled back to almost 12000 and my savings are almost back to where they were before the downturn. Forget what the pundits and politicians say - the numbers tell the story of economic recovery in no uncertain terms!

            Now that folks are beginning to have disposable income again, expect Yamaha and Roland to respond in kind to the gauntlet Korg has thrown down. I'm eager to see what their "supersynths" look like.



            This belongs in the 'polical party' section, but as long as it's been brought up: people put money back into the market when corporations show increased profits.
            Corporations are showing increased profits nowadays mainly by moving and hiring overseas, cutting wages and benefits, laying people off, and other nasties.
            Increased profits - yes. Better for the average working person - that's a whole 'nother discussion.

            Comment


            • #51
              This belongs in the 'polical party' section, but as long as it's been brought up: people put money back into the market when corporations show increased profits.
              Corporations are showing increased profits nowadays mainly by moving and hiring overseas, cutting wages and benefits, laying people off, and other nasties.
              Increased profits - yes. Better for the average working person - that's a whole 'nother discussion.



              This is not political. I was responding to a number of posts above.
              Corporations are showing increased profits because people are actually buying their products again. The 'nasty' stuff they do hasn't particularly risen recently. They're as dispicable as they ever were in that department.

              Keyboard manufacturers wouldn't come out with $3K ticket items unless there was an actual customer base for it. A market. Now that the economy is coming back, there are customers again.

              I work in manufacturing/metal fab here in the US. Things were fallow for a couple of years but now we're getting big orders again and we've actually hired a bunch of skilled labor recently. Things are changing here "in the trenches" regardless of what the pundits and politicians say.

              Personally, I'd love to see Yamaha come out with a "modernized" EX5 with all the bells and whistles.
              <div class="signaturecontainer">Best Regards, James<br />
              --<br />
              <b>I have cast fire upon the world and I am guarding it until it blazes.</b><br />
              <br />
              My Newest CD &quot;Stealing The Sun&quot;: <a href="http://carbon111.bandcamp.com/" target="_blank">http://carbon111.bandcamp.com/</a><br />
              <br />
              Carbon111 Website: <a href="http://www.carbon111.com" target="_blank">http://www.carbon111.com</a><br />
              <br />
              Carbon111 Blog: <a href="http://carbon111.blogspot.com" target="_blank">http://carbon111.blogspot.com</a></div>

              Comment


              • #52
                I don't think it's difficult to use. I started getting really good results with a breath controller in a very short amount of time.
                It is difficult to edit though. There were 'easy' and 'expert' editors available from windsynth.org years back.
                The easy one was no problem. But when using the expert editor, it was relatively easy to 'break the model' - resulting in no sound, and also a fair amount of head scratching.

                You're right though, in that it probably required a bit more effort to get really good results than most people are willing to put in nowadays.


                I got a bit obsessed with VL and expression a few years back, I spent quite a lot of time on my VL-7, but I could never get consistency... too much messing with the headset parameters...

                It did however change my keyboard playing to a degree... I started to play a helluva lot of chromatic passages with that ECM Tenor sound I found. I didn't really come across many other sounds I liked except for a bank of vintage leads someone here gave me which were just out of this world with Jan Hammer leads, Herbie bass and even some sounds that sounded like they were off Sakamoto's 1000 Knives LP from the 70s.

                The VL implementation on the PLG was not as nice as the VL-1 and VL-7 though... I had the EX5, MOTIF VL and VL-7 at the same time. The EX5 VL was nice because you could layer it with samples... the brass was wonderful... much better than the VL-7 patches I had.

                Expressive modelling-wise I also still have my Korg Z-1.. and also my V-Synth GT... kinda miss the VL though.

                Comment


                • #53
                  About Yamaha's PLG boards and alternative synth technologies: if the PLG boards had been selling like crazy I'm sure Yamaha would have continued with them. Since the original boards date back about ten years the technology was pretty long in the tooth and ready for a reboot anyway. The programming hassles with them were related to being part of the XG product line, I think the addition to pro instruments was a bit of an afterthought. The standalone AN and VL instruments obviously didn't really find their market either.

                  How big a market is there really for alternative synth engines in a single instrument? Kronos will be the litmus test.


                  The PLG boards were HORRIBLE! I had an EX5 before they went the PLG route, and I don't care what ANYONE says about them being the "same" the VA stuff was head and shoulders above the PLG boards. Since the EX5 Yamaha hasn't made and REAL attempts to doing modeling on a workstation.

                  I think the alernative engine concept will do well. As long as it delivers when I audition it, I WILL be buying one as soon as it's available.
                  <div class="signaturecontainer"><b>Live Keys Rig:</b><br />
                  Yamaha XS7-Korg M50-61-QSC K12 Monitor (Korg Kronos 73 will replace M50 once programmed)<br />
                  <b>Guitar Rig:</b><br />
                  Fender Strats-Gibson Les Paul Classic-Ibanez 3220 TW (Quilt), Mesa Mark IV, RM4-RT2/50, Crate V3112, and a bunch of pedals/modules<br />
                  <b>Bass Rig:</b><br />
                  Mike Lull M5-Ashdown ABM 500 RC-Bergantino Cabs, A handful of pedals.</div>

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    I agree with Carbon, that is not a political statement at all, just facts. As I said some companies have even bounced back to the point where they have surpassed their pre-recession numbers. Not only that, but those who had money during the crash were able to buy into stocks that were severely undervalued because they rode the wave down.

                    Anyway, as far as gear goes, the point is that new and more expensive stuff is being released now and Korg was ready to jump in first.
                    <div class="signaturecontainer">Gribs<br />
                    <font size="3"><br />
                    <font size="1"><i>...Music can be used to stimulate mass emotion, while mathematics cannot; and musical incapacity is recognized (no doubt rightly) as mildly discreditable, whereas most people are so frightened of the name of mathematics that they are ready, quite unaffectedly, to exaggerate their own mathematical stupidity.<br />
                    </i><br />
                    G.H. Hardy in A Mathematician's Apology (London 1941).</font></font></div>

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      I had a long response ready, but thankfully, got interrupted, and changed my mind.





                      EDIT: can't resist. Yes, corporations selling more product will be part of the picture. Good to keep in mind though, that the worldwide market is much larger than just the US.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        This belongs in the 'polical party' section, but as long as it's been brought up: people put money back into the market when corporations show increased profits.
                        Corporations are showing increased profits nowadays mainly by moving and hiring overseas, cutting wages and benefits, laying people off, and other nasties.
                        Increased profits - yes. Better for the average working person - that's a whole 'nother discussion.


                        Yes, it still is a fact that the United States unemployment rate is still very high. But a lot of this lies in a very weak unskilled labor market. If you were in construction for instance you probably still are hurting badly. OTOH from what I see in IT, at least in the .NET / Java development silo where I reside, there is a lot of demand and hiring.

                        And of course, Korg is global; there are growing middle classes in many countries, and countries such as Australia which weren't so affected by the recession.

                        A worse problem, frankly, is the sorry state of the global music industry. I doubt the music industry is shelling out as much cash for gear these days. So Korg has to probably rely more on hobbyists ()

                        I don't see a $3000 workstation as that high of a ticket item though. That tends to be where the top professional workstations have been priced. (Or even higher, as an earlier thread pointed out.)
                        <div class="signaturecontainer"><font size="1">What I make with way too many blinky light modular items, plugins, and an Alesis Andromeda. <br />
                        <a href="http://forbiddenstar.com/" target="_blank">Forbidden Star: </a> home studio / melodic ambient / New Age / the deep zone<br />
                        <a href="http://boneyfiend.com/" target="_blank">Boney Fiend: </a>the band, man / punk / garage / beer</font></div>

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Yes, corporations selling more product will be part of the picture. Good to keep in mind though, that the worldwide market is much larger than just the US.


                          Completely Agree. We can discuss it over a beer sometime, my treat.
                          ...though I need to warn you I'm a bit of a bleeding heart liberal...except where money is concerned. How's that for politics?
                          <div class="signaturecontainer">Best Regards, James<br />
                          --<br />
                          <b>I have cast fire upon the world and I am guarding it until it blazes.</b><br />
                          <br />
                          My Newest CD &quot;Stealing The Sun&quot;: <a href="http://carbon111.bandcamp.com/" target="_blank">http://carbon111.bandcamp.com/</a><br />
                          <br />
                          Carbon111 Website: <a href="http://www.carbon111.com" target="_blank">http://www.carbon111.com</a><br />
                          <br />
                          Carbon111 Blog: <a href="http://carbon111.blogspot.com" target="_blank">http://carbon111.blogspot.com</a></div>

                          Comment


                          • #58

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              It's funny now to watch the MOTIF XF video after knowing what the KRONOS is.

                              http://motifxf.com/

                              <b>Response from John from American Musical Supply on why I have received 2 used/damaged Korg M3's and 1 reboxed M3 from Guitar Center (a.k.a. while I'll never buy from AMS again):</b><br><br><blockquote><hr>Footfall wrote:<br><p>What you're experiencing with these units is the result of our warehouse crew intentionally &quot;overpacking&quot; this product.</p><br><hr></blockquote><br><font size="1"><i><b>Current Korg Gear:</b> KRONOS 88 (4GB), M50-73 (PS mod), RADIAS-73, Electribe MX, Triton Pro (MOSS, SCSI, CF, 64MB RAM), DVP-1, MEX-8000, MR-1, KAOSSilator, nanoKey, nanoKontrol, nanoPAD 2</i></font>

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                People will still buy the Motif (and lots of other boards), for a whole variety of reasons. Kronos is pretty cool, but not what everyone's looking for.

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