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Best workstation keyboard for composing...


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Hey guys. I have played piano since high school (am now 23) and was considering purchasing a keyboard to start composing my own music with. I would really like to compose film and videogame music, but I realize that the likelihood of achieving financial success composing ANY style of music is slim. Selecting from among the flagship keyboards (Korg M3, Roland Fantom-G, Kurzweil PC361, or Yamaha Motif XS) from the major equipment manufacturers, which workstation would you recommend for someone who is looking to compose in a diverse variety of musical genres?

I have read several reviews of the Kurzweil PC361 which stated that its sounds were the most realistic of all the hardware keyboards. However, do you guys tend to agree or disagree with this assertion? Also, how would you assess its sequencer in terms of user-friendliness and severity of learning curve?

Also, I actually do have a Roland Fantom-S that I obtained in 2004. But when I "got out" of music for a while, the keyboard essentially remained in storage (indoor, thankfully) for a number of years. However, before I decided to stop composing for a while, I noticed that the keyboard often wouldn't connect via USB to my computer; essentially, sometimes the connection would appear on my computer and most of the time it wouldn't. Additionally, whenever I would play it, the sound would often "go out" in one ear of my headphones/speakers. I'm not sure what actually happened to spur these two malfunctions.

But that leads me to ask another question: are the sounds (in terms of realism) and technological capabilities of "modern" keyboards substantially improved enough to justify the purchase of a new workstation keyboard? I just figured that with the Fantom-S being based on such antiquated technology, I might as well buy a more recently-released model of whatever keyboard I end up choosing. Of course, I'll likely look into selling the Fantom-S and the SRX boards I have to help offset the cost of the new 'board. I will hopefully be starting graduate school this summer, and my plan is to actually transfer the remainder of the cost to my student loan balance (or just pay for the keyboard with money disbursed for "living expenses").

Wow, that post ended up being a lot longer than I had originally intended for it to be. If there's anyone still reading who wasn't put to sleep by the last few paragraphs, I would appreciate any advice and suggestions you'd be willing to offer! smile.gif

I'd have to say that at this point, I'm considering the PC361, but my preference is definitely still subject to swaying.

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Take a look at the new Korg Kronos and decide if you want to wait for it to come out. Perhaps also consider that when it is released there might be a flood of second hand M3s on EBay. I would also consider an all-software instrument setup with a controller which could be your old Fantom just using the midi ports and a cheap midi interface.

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Thanks for the replies that have been posted so far. Honestly, I would really just prefer to buy a "modern" board instead of a used older-model board. I wasn't aware of the Korg Kronos, so thanks for tipping me off to it, Gribs. I just did some brief research on it, and it sounds cutting-edge, but I'm curious (and I don't think this specification has been released yet)... will the Kronos have all-new sounds, or will it just be a combination of sounds culled from both the M3 and OASYS? If that's the case, I might as well get a PC361 if the sounds in the PC361 really are more realistic/natural than those in the M3 and OASYS. I do recognize the virtue in demoing each of the keyboards for myself and gaining a subjective perspective on each board's sounds, and I will hopefully do that this week.

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tremens, would you say that, in general, the sounds on the Motif XS are better than those on the PC361? I have heard a few people remark that the acoustic guitars on the Motif XS sound better than those on the PC361, but I haven't heard/seen many other comparisons.

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Quote Originally Posted by SpicedCider View Post
tremens, would you say that, in general, the sounds on the Motif XS are better than those on the PC361? I have heard a few people remark that the acoustic guitars on the Motif XS sound better than those on the PC361, but I haven't heard/seen many other comparisons.
yes, I have never heard so realistic acoustic instruments as in motif XS or XF.
many demos on youtube.
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Quote Originally Posted by tremens View Post
motif XS of course is the best.
I don't know if they fixed this on the Motif XS, but the solo orchestral sounds (strings, woodwinds, brass) of the ES and original Motifs have this awful, fake sounding vibrato that kicks in after about 1 second of sustain, making them all but useless. And you can't change it, since the vibrato is present AT THE WAVEFORM LEVEL. In other words, it's not a timed modulation setting in the patches. It's embedded in the raw waveforms. A terrible oversight.

I think the Motif has great pianos, EPs, guitars, basses, and drums, but if you're planning on writing orchestral pieces, Kurzweil (or even Korg) is a much better option. I say this as an owner of a PC3X, M3, and Motif.
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Here are some YouTube examples illustrating the problem.

I'll also add that the *tone* of the Motif is good, and that most of the 'section' patches (i.e. string section, brass section, etc.) don't have this problem. But the solo instruments are another story. Somebody needs to tell Yamaha that vibrato is something you add manually as you play, with aftertouch or the mod wheel. Or at the very least, program it into the patch so that it can be altered to taste.

You might get away with playing pieces in allegro and leggiero, but playing pretty much anything in adagio or grave will not sound natural. Vibrato does not normally come out so early (and consistently) when sustaining a note at medium or slower tempos.






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Zoink, I don't see any problems with orchestral solo instruments.
Obviously you have to know how to play good vibrato to sound right,
the same as you would have to practice on real acoustic instrument.
Difference between motif ES and XS is huge so no sense to compare them.

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Quote Originally Posted by tremens View Post
Zoink, I don't see any problems with orchestral solo instruments.
Obviously you have to know how to play good vibrato to sound right,
the same as you would have to practice on real acoustic instrument.
Difference between motif ES and XS is huge so no sense to compare them.
But that's my point. The Motif (including the XS evidently) doesn't give you the chance to 'play' vibrato, since it's part and parcel of the raw waveforms. Your choices are to either play with brief sustain, or sound artificial.

As it happens, this is not the case with Kurzweil and Korg, and they sound correspondingly more realistic. The last of the videos posted above is all XS, and I'm still hearing vibrato kick in at about one second of sustain. It sounds even worse when you sustain multiple notes of the same solo instrument.

I think the XS sounds very lush and full -- especially the section patches -- but the vibrato on the solo instruments just grates on the ears.
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OK sell the Fantom if you have not done so already. Buy the PC361 to get started. Also look into a good computer and DAW. Record the Kurz into the audio parts of the DAW and then find some interesting softsynth like Omnisphere to complement. Void this if you have these things or have done these things already.

If you are a MAC guy like me, Logic=GOOD DAW AND SOFTSYNTHS to BOOT use the KURZ to control.

The Kurz fully loaded is about 1,000 cheaper than a fully loaded Motif XF at this time. Buy from Sweetwater if you can.

The Kurz is not going to be your easiest workstation choice out there and the Motif has more on board insofar as grooves and presets, but if you ask me, Kurzweil has always had a purity to it's sound; plus the new board has a Virtual Analog synth BUILT IN!!!

Finally the PC361 has been heavily discounted due to unpopularity or for what ever reason. This has no reflection or meaning as to it's quality or sound. It is a PC3 through and through.

Good luck...

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Thanks for the advice, guys! To be honest, I'm kind of surprised that nobody has said, "You have a Fantom-S, so just stick with that," LOL. And after listening to demonstrations of various sounds on the PC361 and Motif ES, I can see -- er, hear -- why. One of the main problems with the Fantom is that, when you first turn on the keyboard, many of the sounds are fairly realistic. However, those sounds are also fancied up with often numerous FX that are largely responsible for "making" the realistic, polished sound. Once you turn on the sequencer, though, the sounds are more or less very naked and MIDI-sounding since the FX settings are not carried over when sequencing mode is entered... and the worst part is, you can only utilize a few FX settings while in sequencing mode (from what I remember). As a result, compositions in almost any style of music would sound very MIDI-ish and rudimentary because it simply wasn't possible to assign more than a couple FX settings, which ended up being assigned to one or two solo instruments. On top of that, having only 64 notes of polyphony made it a practical impossibility to compose orchestra music using a full spectrum of instruments (I.e., not just one or two orchestral pads) without notes noticeably dropping out.

I'm just afraid the minor technical issues (which I now am aware the old Fantoms are somewhat infamous for) in my keyboard will preclude me being able to sell the keyboard for more than a couple hundred dollars. :-(

@zoink - I do hear the forced vibrato sound of the Motif XS, and I agree that it sounds unnatural and would make string sounds stick-out in almost any piece -- and not in a good way. That was also an issue in the old Fantom-S.

@zzzxtreme - I would like to compose primarily orchestral music, some electronic music (house, dance -- not into rap), and whatever else would make me more likely to gain videogame/film composing jobs. But I realize that this is more of a pipedream than an aspiration that is likely to be realized. I would say that I will be composing MOSTLY orchestral music with the occasional dance-y track, although I am also a huge Lyle Mays/Pat Metheny fan and would also like to (attempt to) compose jazz fusion.

I can safely say, more or less, that I won't be composing any rap/hip-hop unless some kind of composing gig comes along.

@DJ RAZZ - To be honest with you, I would really prefer to just sequence on whatever keyboard I end up purchasing. I know it sounds old-fashioned and backwards to depend on a hardware sequencer, but I just really like the inclusiveness of having my entire music workstation contained within one piece of hardware. So unless there are some serious pitfalls with the sequencing capabilities of the Motif ES or the PC361 (the two boards I've more or less narrowed it down to), I probably won't be using any softsynths or computer-based sequencers or samples.

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Quote Originally Posted by tremens View Post
motif XS of course is the best.
Except Motif XF is even better cop.gif

Quote Originally Posted by SpicedCider View Post
I would really prefer to just sequence on whatever keyboard I end up purchasing. So unless there are some serious pitfalls with the sequencing capabilities of the Motif ES or the PC361 (the two boards I've more or less narrowed it down to), I probably won't be using any softsynths or computer-based sequencers or samples.
Today professional music for film work is largely done with software rather than hardware. The orchestral sounds in particular are far superior because of more detailed sampling of various performance articulations.

Having sold my Motif ES to get a Motif XF I'll mention that the "expanded articulation" feature found on the XS and XF is very useful for orchestral sounds. For example, you can easily switch between bowed, tremelo and pizz strings from a single patch. Unless you need to save money and can find a used ES super cheap (say $700-800) I would get the XS or XF.

Yamaha has partnered with Garritan so the Garritan Personal Orchestra soundset is now available for the Motif XS and XF.

If you won't be using samples at all, Yamaha has just announced the MO-X, essentially an XS minus the sampling functions. It will probably not ship until summer, though.
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This is a neat and interesting thread. Like the OP, i was 23 and fresh out of college when I first got it into my head that I'd like to do music production professionally for film or videogames. Through a string of lucky circumstances (albeit after several years of "office-working"), I was able to make it "into the industry" and am still able to eke out a living doing something I truly love (although it helps to have a spouse with a good career and health benefits)...

Nevertheless, this topic got me thinking (now at age 40) what advice I would give to 23-year-old me about equipment choices, especially since in those 17 years, a lot of gear and technology has came and gone through my studio door. Now, I've finally settled into a workflow that has a hybrid selection of hardware and software, I would strongly urge you not to discount the computer route entirely -- ESPECIALLY for orchestral production and film work.

I always thought the idea of a workstation solution was ideal for me too, and it IS great for songwriting, but not so much when it comes to syncing to picture... which for videogame and film scoring, you'd be doing -- A LOT! You will almost always need video clips to work from, to establish mood, or to align cues and transitions. Even for videogames, having test gameplay footage, cut scenes, or proof of concept videos is a great way to build arrangements and determine pace.

A workstation keyboard will get you a nice assortment of sounds to start to work from, but it won't be too long before you'll need a dedicated orchestra library or some other specialized sample sets. Something like Kontakt (in conjunction with a DAW application AND your workstation keyboard) would be an ideal and complete "starter" set.

For what it's worth, around 2001, I scored two feature films (one independently released and the other one just a comping score) using nothing but a Roland XP-50, XV-88 and JV-1010 with the SR-JV80 and SRX Orchestral expansion boards (arranged and sequenced in SONAR)... so I can attest that it *can* be done on an old Roland thumb.gif

Today, the Rolands are all gone and the videogame soundtracks I produce now are mostly done with a combination of Korg Oasys* and Kontakt (plus a select few other softsynths) in Logic.

* Since the Kronos is largely derived from the Oasys, once again, I can definitely speak to the quality of those sounds for soundtrack work. Keep in mind that the Kronos actually offers MORE than the sum of the Oasys at half the price, which is a great deal if you can get your hands on one.

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If you want realism, go with computer. None of the workstations can compete in realism currently. Albeit I suppose the kronos string modelling and piano is quite interesting, but not sure.

The synth/Fx engine is quite great in PC3 and the different engines in Kronos look promising too. Motif is more of your bread n butter rompler IMO.

You simply can not do something like this on the keyboards for now (well I guess receptor rack could):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVyoR5osoAk

The price is of course high so maybe I am comparing apples to oranges...

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Quote Originally Posted by tagpass View Post
This is a neat and interesting thread. Like the OP, i was 23 and fresh out of college when I first got it into my head that I'd like to do music production professionally for film or videogames. Through a string of lucky circumstances (albeit after several years of "office-working"), I was able to make it "into the industry" and am still able to eke out a living doing something I truly love (although it helps to have a spouse with a good career and health benefits)...

Nevertheless, this topic got me thinking (now at age 40) what advice I would give to 23-year-old me about equipment choices, especially since in those 17 years, a lot of gear and technology has came and gone through my studio door. Now, I've finally settled into a workflow that has a hybrid selection of hardware and software, I would strongly urge you not to discount the computer route entirely -- ESPECIALLY for orchestral production and film work.

I always thought the idea of a workstation solution was ideal for me too, and it IS great for songwriting, but not so much when it comes to syncing to picture... which for videogame and film scoring, you'd be doing -- A LOT! You will almost always need video clips to work from, to establish mood, or to align cues and transitions. Even for videogames, having test gameplay footage, cut scenes, or proof of concept videos is a great way to build arrangements and determine pace.

A workstation keyboard will get you a nice assortment of sounds to start to work from, but it won't be too long before you'll need a dedicated orchestra library or some other specialized sample sets. Something like Kontakt (in conjunction with a DAW application AND your workstation keyboard) would be an ideal and complete "starter" set.

For what it's worth, around 2001, I scored two feature films (one independently released and the other one just a comping score) using nothing but a Roland XP-50, XV-88 and JV-1010 with the SR-JV80 and SRX Orchestral expansion boards (arranged and sequenced in SONAR)... so I can attest that it *can* be done on an old Roland thumb.gif

Today, the Rolands are all gone and the videogame soundtracks I produce now are mostly done with a combination of Korg Oasys* and Kontakt (plus a select few other softsynths) in Logic.

* Since the Kronos is largely derived from the Oasys, once again, I can definitely speak to the quality of those sounds for soundtrack work. Keep in mind that the Kronos actually offers MORE than the sum of the Oasys at half the price, which is a great deal if you can get your hands on one.
Tag, when you did the movie soundtracks (way to rock the "old stuff" btw!) Did you introduce the movie INTO Sonar so you could get a time code lock?
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Spiced,

While you're trying to decide which keyboard to get, I figure you might want to get some work down meanwhile:

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/WK7500

A screaming deal for $499, even MORE screaming for $399 if you don't require 76 keys but want to keep everything else in the 7500.

Casio is not bad at all:

http://soundcloud.com/skyy38/napoleonic

The above wasn't done on a WK 7500, but the 7500's sound set is WAY above the sample provided, so, use your imagination.

Get to work now, instead of *later*.......

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Quote Originally Posted by workstation M.I View Post
Tag, when you did the movie soundtracks (way to rock the "old stuff" btw!) Did you introduce the movie INTO Sonar so you could get a time code lock?
Yes!

In the live action one, I only imported those scenes which needed score elements that matched picture, but some of the other cues were produced on thier own and edited in as background music for certain scenes or as part of a montage, etc. The other film -- the one that wasn't released -- was an animated feature, which required music in nearly every scene. I was scoring those on a scene-by-scene basis, either when the animation staff gave me approved animatics or final rendered scenes -- so I had a million different project files for that one, ranging from a few seconds in length to several minutes. I also had to keep track of how themes/scenes ended in one scene, so the next could pick it up at a similar tempo or key. Overall, the project was a mess, and poorly managed, so it's no wonder it was never fully realized!

For the live action film, I did import the entire movie (total running time was about 2 hours) into SONAR to do foley tracks, ADR, dialogue matching and sweetening, and the soundtrack mix. It was an enormous project, and rendering the final audio was a long process. But it synced perfectly with no special effort other than making sure the project file framerate was set to 29.97 fps.
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Quote Originally Posted by tremens

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BTW the best workstation except the motif XS of course is human brain, unlimited tracks and ideas and it's free although not everybody got it...

 

It hasn't even got MIDI or aftertouch, it's clearly pretty lame.
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Quote Originally Posted by tremens View Post
not true -It has one generic inter-face and excuse me no after touch? have you ever tried to touch it?
There's only so far I can get my finger up my nostril, but I'm making progress.


Seriously though, I like the XS a lot. Haven't tried the XF, and couldn't afford it right now anyway, but I'd have to assume it's better still. I'd go in that direction.
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