Mashing two Leslies to make a more conventional one.

[WynnD]

I'm leaning seriously to blending my 825 and 860 Leslies. Chop off the top of the 825 and take the bass section off the 860. I'd use the 860's amps and rotor controls. The 825 is much larger and deeper and warmer sounding. I have come to the conclusion that the result would end up about as tall as my 760 Leslie. (Just thinner and not as deep. and the extra wattage would be welcome.) Think it would look pretty good too. (Need some new tolex and grill cloth.) Am I nuts? (Built my own bass guitar, so I'm OK with serious woodworking.)

[wesg]

I think you are nuts.

 

There are two things I think you should consider: either a Leslie 145 (my preference) or a small subwoofer for the 860. Buy a Yorkville LS200P and set the 860 on top of it. Or just feed the bass frequencies into your PA.

 

Wes

[WynnD]

Thanks for the suggestion. I already own everything I need and own subwoofers if I wanted to go that route. Got several PA systems of speakers. Only 2 are real subwoofers. I can easily try that but don't expect I'd like the sound on my organ. Remember that the horn crossover is at 800 htz. Half the octaves are above and half below. I'm contemplating using bass amp for my pedals for a particular project, but most of my organ work doesn't include pedals. (Got a PK-7 unit for the VK-77 organ.) Will try it, but thinking I might be missing a lot between 100-800 htz where the subs don't go.

[wesg]

No, leave the 860 alone, feed it full range. Run the sub off a 100Hz low pass filter.

 

This is a common setup in the Jazz organ world with larger Leslies. I bet it would fill out the 860 nicely for your purposes. The jazz guys like it because they are playing left hand bass.

[WynnD]

Love that term "larger Leslies". The 860, as small as it is, has more power than a 900 Leslie. But nowhere near the bottom end. (In spite of a very good bass speaker.) I also play bass and would never consider playing bass only through subwoofers. (Not into shaking rooms.) I will try it out before any surgery. Who knows, I could be surprised. (But I'm a working live sound engineer as well as a musician. Sound rarely surprises me anymore.)

[wesg]

Remember, we are not talking about using the subwoofer to replace anything in the Leslie. Just to reinforce the bottom end. The same principle as running and subwoofer under a full range speaker.

 

Don't let the power specs of the Leslie 860 fool you. The bottom amp is bigger because they are trying to squeeze as much bass as they can out of that tiny enclosure. You're not going to get significantly different max SPL from a 760 because the limiting factor is the Jensen V21.

[Outkaster]

Never chop a Leslie.

[WynnD]

I've got both, but haven't really compared them directly. I do know the 760 has a better bottom end. (And 90 watts vs 125 watts really isn't much difference.) On the other hand, One could easily put two and maybe even three 860s in the space a 760 takes up.

[WynnD]

There sure are quite a few votes against ever cutting on a Leslie. (Even in this case where cutting up two mediocre leslies, you end up with a better sounding single leslie that will be slightly easier to move around than a 760.)

[nice keetee]

There sure are quite a few votes against ever cutting on a Leslie. (Even in this case where cutting up two mediocre leslies' date=' you end up with a better sounding single leslie that will be slightly easier to move around than a 760.) [/quote']

 

spend some more money and get what you want and preserve your original leslies to sell?

fer crine o' loude

[WynnD]

What I want is a smaller 11 pin leslie that sounds good. 860 is smaller, but the lack of bass is a short coming. The 825 sounds good but doesn't have a horn. I was thinking of getting a rotosound for the top of the 825, meshing the two leslies together will be better than a rotosound on top of the 825 and a whole lot easier to hook up. Now if I cut up my 760, I can see that upsetting people. (I could shorten it to 145 height.) Can't quite fathom why the protection of the 825. The 860 I understand a little. (Very little.) Also makes me wonder if I could find a 860 amp unit on the internet. (Might look for that.) I could use that to modify my 760 so it will run straight off an 11 pin connector.

 

[WynnD]

This does remind me a bit of hearing about the guy who brought his 1953 Stratocaster into a guitar tech and told him he wanted the finish stripped and the guitar painted in American flag theme. The tech said the guitar was worth more than $6000 as is, but when he stripped and re-painted it, it would only be worth $600. Guy didn't care, it was his first guitar and he was never going to sell it. He only wanted it painted to make himself happy. (Even with the loss of $5500 of value.) If you never sell it, does it really have $6000 value? I'm a bit like that with this contemplated project. I still have to find out if I have the router bit I'd need for a tongue groove to place on the mating edges. I've sold a lot of equipment over the years, but I've never sold a Leslie. (And I've had the 825 since 1971.)

[Vito Corleone]

Cept the guy with the strat knew exactly what the end product would be. You're searching for an "improved" sound that you don't know if your idea will achieve or not.

[nice keetee]

Go for it then, a Frankenleslie! A WynnDleslie!

[wesg]

If your goal is a 760 with an 11-pin interface, you should just rip out the power supply and crossover board from the 860 and move it across. Maybe the amp boards, too, I forget if they have the same power supply connectors or not.

[WynnD]

Actually, I have a very good idea of what the end product will sound like. I've got all the necessary adapters to run all the leslies at the same time. And I've actually run the 825 and 860 stacked at the same time.

 

[wesg]

I still think you're nuts.

 

If I had an 860, I would run my mini vent to the PA on a stereo channel, put a 57 on the upper rotor, and you would have a *sweet* sounding rig. You might even be able to get away with a simulator of lesser quality (VK-8?) since your second "Leslie" is the real deal.

 

Wes

[WynnD]

You won't be the first one to think I'm nuts. (My ex-wife is probably first on that list.) I'm gigging a Roland VK-77 and the internal fake rotary sound is fine for 2 dimensional sound. I refuse to mic a Leslie. Don't want to take that 3D sound and make it 2D. Thanks for your input. Think I'm going with the mods and will document it well. I should take sound samples from the 860, 825 and the two stacked prior to getting my circular saw out. After I'm done, others will know if this is a good idea or not for them.

[wesg]

Will the final product be any smaller than your 760? I still stay if the 760 meets your needs except for the input connector - swap the power supplies (and maybe amps) around!

 

By the way, the 70s ProLine Leslies are *not* coreboard like the wood models. They are plywood. You will need to use something other than biscuits and butt joints for your joinery.

 

Wes

[WynnD]

Aware of the plywood. Planning on cutting a groove the length of each of the three sides and use about a 1" stick to add strength on the front and sides. I have yet to check my router bits for something suitable. If I don't have a good choice, I'll buy one. (It will get used again.) If that doesn't work, I might place an overlapping board on the inside that goes across the butt joint. Between glue and screws, I can see the entire thing working pretty well.

 

The 800 series leslies are narrower side to side and front to back. In this case, the 825 and 860 are exactly the same dimensions front to back and side to side. (Lending itself to this mod.) Not really sure if the result will be as tall as the 760. (Hoping shorter without shortchanging the bass portion's volume.) Also, I don't want to change anything on the 760. I can easily see times when I would want to use both cabinets. I already have suitable handles to mount on the resultant cabinet. My 825 never had side handles. (And the side handles were junk anyway.) The 860 is missing it's handles. I plan to clear up locations for handles after assembling them together. Will also be recovering then entire cabinet seeing that the 825's tolex is getting pretty ratty. I'm thinking that the bumper strips will be enough to go around the entire cabinet with joints only on the bottom and probably back. (They're stapled onto the plywood at the ends.)

[wesg]

I used arcade machine T-molding to re-bumper by 760. It wasn't quite fat enough in the middle, but I made it fit with hot glue. The T-molding is available in lots of colours fairly cheap, so if you don't want go silver, there's an option for you.

 

I was thinking about your joinery problem - I think lap joints would be the way to go.

 

Wes

[WynnD]

Thought about lap joint along the entire edge. With the proper router bit, it would be fairly easy to setup. I've become a fan of Gorilla Glue. The extra that oozes out cuts off easily and what is in the gaps in the wood holds quite solidly. My 760 used to get abused when tilting it in and out of the van. (Wouldn't fit upright in my 1999 Sienna. Haven't tried it upright in my 2014 Sienna yet.) The bottom edge of the plywood was starting to de-laminate the whole way up to the bottom grill cloth, so I pulled the bumper off, applied Gorilla Glue and clamped it. It's now solid and I no longer allow anyone else to take it out of the van. (They just aren't as careful as I am.)

 

I used the 760 for every show I did with my X-5 Hammond. The organ has a 9 pin out and the 760 is a good match. I retired the organ to rehearsal duties after the splitter chips started flaking out when hot. (ANd they run hot. You don't want to ever hear that.) Used it to gig for nearly 20 years. That's a bit funny, cause I bought my VK-77 around the turn of the century. Love that organ and it's getting close to 20 years that I've had it. (And the MacBook Pro I'm writing on is over 5 years old.) Guess that when you get up in age, you don't get rid of things very quickly. The organ is making a bit of noise and I do need to trace down a Roland service tech to look into it. (At least that's my plan.) I have fixed a bunch of stuff over the years. Including the three keys that quit working after an outdoor gig turned into a rain nightmare as the wind blew it under the roof and we packed and ran. (Everything got wet that day.)

 

Thanks for the suggestion. I've done a bit of woodworking, but would hardly consider myself any kind of expert. (The bass in my avatar is all my woodworking. Plays well, but it's the second neck I built. Got a compound radius curve on the fingerboard.)

[wesg]

"splitter chips"?? Do you mean the transistors on the crossover board? You might be able to replace them with TIP31A.

 

I've been lucky with my 760, it's an old road dog, but the only functional problem I had was a failed slow-motor triac. It sure is ugly, though. Same plywood problem as yours; I re-glued the edges with wood glue and put some high-quality black duck tape around it to act as a first-level wear surface. The whole Leslie is all black now, a mixture of black tolex, black spray paint, black duck tape, black magic marker, and black T-molding. It's ugly as sin, but it still looks alright on stage (but I have been gigging a 147 in a 710 cabinet lately). I also have to tip it to get it in the van, a Montana SV6. My old Chevy Venture would load my 51C through the side door, just barely, but it has smaller casters. And it always put a new ding in the wood, so it stays home now. I am currently getting a 145 gig-ready. I expect a 145 will solve that part of my transport problem.

 

Wes

[WynnD]

X-5 Hammond built by Ace Tone. Has a single frequency generator and two divider ICs. I bought a couple of spares early on for about $12 each. When one started to actually fail, the C and every multiple of it would be white noise. Can't play a chord that way. Anyway, apparently all X-5 Hammonds were having that problem and the chips were no where to be found. I found someone who claimed to have them overseas for $600 each. Someone is now making a replacement that works for $24 each. Might eventually purchase a couple, but when comparing the Hammond and the Roland, the Roland is the better sounding organ as well as it has other sounds too. So I'm not really that interested in worrying about the Hammond and it has found a second life as a rehearsal horse. (Works fine as long as it's not too hot.)

[WynnD]

By the way, I put the spares in and that's why it's functioning. Also put a fan inside to help cool them. (Not sure it helps.) The chips are too hot to touch when in use. Schematics for the X'5 Hammond are available online. When I bought it, it was the right tool for the job. (Does sound pretty good, but not distorted.)