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Guitar as a second instrument serious thread


pogo97

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This is for Plink Floyd.

I've played piano (I briefly tried keyboards, but have since gone back to piano) for fifty years. I've played guitar for forty years. I'm pretty close to equally-good at both.

Lots to talk about. But first, why bother?

cons:
-another damn thing to carry around
-it can get expensive to maintain both keys gear and guitar gear
-time practising guitar is time not practising piano
-people are confused about what you do or they assume that because you play two instruments you're probably not that great on either
-you can seem threatening to both guitar and keyboard players

pros:
-guitar is a very very different musical voice than piano/keys and it facilitates very different forms of expression than piano/keys
-it's useful to extend your range of sounds when recording
-when you're tired of being rendered inaudible on keys by the guitar player, you can haul out your guitar and amp and put him back in his sonic place
-as a guitar player, you understand keys; as a keys player, you understand guitar
-it's much more portable
-like a piano, but unlike any other keys, you can play it during a blackout

I fret about spreading my mojo between two instruments, but that's where I find myself and I'm hardly going to drop one or the other now. If I could magically alter the past (and also magically alter my long-dead parents' attitudes toward music and musical instruments) I would start studying guitar at six with the best teacher in the city (who my parents would magically know). However, having the two does have its advantages, so I hardly ever cry myself to sleep over it anymore.

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Thank you for your thoughts. I believe this will be an interesting discussion.

I've begun two or three replies now, but lost them to a rainstorm that's playing heck with our rickety rural power grid so I'm going to give up for now and try again tomorrow.

Any other 'doublers' here?

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yes. I played guitar first and am still better at it. Got guitar, originally bass, just to add more organic sounds to my music. I havent suceeded yet. But I have a guitar and bass and play quite a bit.

I find the barrier to entry really low. Especially if you buy used and there are a LOT of used guitars, under $200 or $100 gets you something that's playable and actually looks and sounds good. That's a bit harder to do with synths, though it's doable. There's tons of tab available online. Plus get some cheap guitar pedals and its even more fun (these can also do double duty if you want to experiment with them on keyboards). I currently use the amp models in a little Boss recorder for practice, I know they're not great but they get the job done for a lot of tones and eventually I'll get me some amps.

At the end of the day you can just pick up and play them, dont even have to plug them in and you can sit on your ass. The same is true of Casios and the Monotribe of course.

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I played guitar for about 25 years (mostly jazz) but had to quit because of focal dystonia in my right hand so I'm not technically a doubler. I've been on the keys now for about year and a half. I can honestly say that even if I were to gain full motion back in my hand, I wouldn't switch back to guitar.

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Good discussion indeed. I am about to pick up the saxophone, as a friend is willing to trade sax lessons for lectures on how to use a synth. I will be borrowing an alto from him, so I'm not about to plunge on a project whose level of seriousness I am yet to figure out. I would, however, at some point love to reach a level of expression that somewhat resembles what I can do on the piano. Then I can go to a jazz gig with just a sax and if there's no piano, no harm done!

Regarding your particular situation, I can definitely understand some of your concerns. There's a lot of extra stuff to lug around if you want to play both on a gig. And then there's practice time. For my part, I'm mostly concerned that my dedication to piano will eliminate potential threats to my pianistic progression. Suppose it's just a matter of doing a little extra work every day. I do, however, like the fact that we are practicing not to become better keyboardists or guitarists, but to continously exceed our own level of musicianship. Everything we do relates to one another; i.e. my pianistic background will obviously show in my sax playing, but I suspect my playing sax will also give me a clearer conception of melodic lines and the possibilities they hold. Guitar will probably be nice in that regard, plus it's an amazing instrument from a compositional point of view.

You can probably get more gigs, too.

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I started on keys on my grandmother's Hammond organ and upright piano. She'd sit there very patiently and show me songs note for note. Then I played cornet and baritone in junior high. At age 15, I bought an acoustic guitar and an electric at 16. I was in a band shortly after. I then started on bass guitar and alternated between bass and regular guitars for years, usually in some band or another. I got back into keyboards around age 29 when I bought a piano, then a Yamaha CS-10 synth, and then more synths. Live, I still usually play bass or guitar. My friends keep asking me to play keys live, so I'd like to get a lightweight all-in-one keyboard for live work (I don't like taking my synths out of the house.) Maybe a MO6 or something.

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I find the barrier to entry really low. Especially if you buy used and there are a LOT of used guitars, under $200 or $100 gets you something that's playable and actually looks and sounds good.
It's true. There's a strat clone on the local Kijiji that looks great for $250. It's been there for ages and I'm very tempted. But I don't need it. (urgh! get that hand away from the reply button!!!!!). Of course, because of this, it becomes easy to collect bunches of guitars, which I really don't want to do. Most of my guitar-only friends have far more value and space invested in guitars than I have in both guitars and keys.

And then there's practice time. For my part, I'm mostly concerned that my dedication to piano will eliminate potential threats to my pianistic progression. Suppose it's just a matter of doing a little extra work every day. I do, however, like the fact that we are practicing not to become better keyboardists or guitarists, but to continously exceed our own level of musicianship.
There absolutely is cross-fertilization from one instrument to the other. More so, I think, from piano to guitar but that may just be me.

You can probably get more gigs, too.
I don't think so. There's the advantage of being able to produce more sounds but you can only produce them one-at-a-time. Some singer-songwriter types (Neil Young, Joni Mitchell, ???) play both and use that to their advantage. But really, who really gives a damn that Joni plays piano, too? You go to see her because of her songs and her general presentation, not her piano playing. I don't ever recall seeing a small-time musician performing solo with both keys and guitar.

In a bigger band, you probably have a specific role--keys or guitar but not both--and in a small band (duo or trio) the stage is unlikely to have enough room for both keys and an extra guitar.

Another downside is that people get confused about what you do. I believe that in marketing yourself, you need a clear clean image. Playing two instruments makes you more complex and, therefore, more difficult to sell.
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I was thinking that a probably a good amount of bands play keys-friendly music and then a couple of songs which are better suited for, say, two guitars. Most bands would have the keys guy do keys stuff anyway, and that's absolutely fine, but if you can market yourself as the versatile dude that can make virtually anything sound like it's supposed to, that might be an advantage.

But yeah, be sure to maintain a primary instrument. Otherwise people may get the idea that one can dabble a little on this and a little on that without really excelling at anything. I agree.

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I'm not good at keys, not good at guitar, not good at drumming..... I'm proud to say I'm not good at a lot of things rather than just one. biggrin.gif BUT, I do enjoy most things musical and it is fun to play around with a variety of stuff - for example, I'm messing with LIVE DRUMMING too hoping to replace the drum machine in future tracks.

Do whatever ya like and have fun in life! No rules. Become great, or don't, whatever you enjoy. smile.gif

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I also play both and started both (by ear) around 6 yrs old. In a band situation I call myself a keyboard player than CAN play guitar if needed. Most rock keyboard players tend to be trained somewhat formally while most guitar players are rock guitar players and were trained as rock guitar players. I'm a rock/jazz keyboard player but was classically trained on guitar. So I'm kind of backwards. Playing 2 instruments kind of sucks because it takes twice as long to get out of a music store.

I also played drums and percussion from 4th grade into college but finally sold my drum kits off and have only maintained my snares and cymbal stands in the attic. I keep a small Yamaha electronic kit around so I can sequence drum parts properly.

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It seems there are two distinct camps: the serious and the funsters. I confess that I'm currently a member of the latter crowd, perfectly happy that I don't have to exert myself at much of anything nowadays.

I do believe, however, that when I was busting it five or six nights a week, I had the edge over lots of other keyboard players because I also played tenor sax. Having pretty good vocals didn't hurt, either. Once I was established, I never wanted for gigs. There certainly were better piano players out there, but I was a better overall contributor to a pop band than the virtuosos could be. Remember the term 'multikeyboardist'?

Guitar, though, is the topic. Well, for whatever reason, I like it a lot more now than I did when I was younger. We had only a piano in my toddler to grade school years, until I convinced the folks to trade it in on a Farfisa. So no guitars in the house, and I simply had no interest in them, till lately.

I got my teenage son a Squire Strat three or four years ago, and I went through the beginner book with him with the understanding that if he seriously undertook the task of learning scales, notation and other theory, I'd get him lessons from a real teacher. He didn't. But he discovered tabs, and he plays want he wants to play, and he has fun. So be it. It's exactly what happened to me, except there weren't any tabs for Inna Gada Davida or Magic Carpet Ride, so I had to cop them by ear.

The 'teaching' experience is what sparked my recent interest, I think. If not for that, I probably wouldn't have any guitarish equipage in the house.

In younger days, I had no patience with acoustic plinkery, but I quit like it now.

Oh, and this thread is a good place to say I love.gif Kerry Livgren.

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I actually started on classical guitar as a child. I remember that I didn't like that the strings hurt my fingers so I switched to piano, which obviously was much easier on the fingers biggrin.gif These days, I'm just "ok" at guitar, but I think I'm much better at electric bass, since I played it in bands for years. I dabble with several other instruments too. But I am, first and foremost, a keyboard player.

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As much as we like to make fun of 'lead' guitarists, they had to work hard for their chops just like we did. (That's assuming of course their chops are not delusional, which can frequently be the case among that tribe. It's generally the personality disorders which fuel the derision, I think.)

But learning rhythm guitar isn't that tough, especially for someone who already knows theory. The worst of it is the aforementioned hamburger finger effect. Once you can do it without looking at the fretboard, you're as good as any other rhythm guitar player. Sing a couple songs and your dad's uncle's brother's name is Robert.

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I play guitar as a second instrument in my band. My guitar cost me $40 (an ibanez strat copy) and my playing is a wonderful contrast with our amazing guitarist. I start songs off that sound raw and out of control, then he starts playing and it takes off to another level.

Plus, I'm all virtual instruments, so I play through amp sims. No, they're not as good as a real amp pushing volts through tubes and speakers, but I'm too old to carry big amps around.

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Doubler here, well actually, more like quadrupler. Started learning guitar at 6, then moved onto piano/keys, then bass, and finally drums. I'm probably more proficient with a guitar than anything else, but my heart belongs to synths. Like others have said, I couldn't imagine limiting myself to just one instrument.

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I've played piano and keyboards for 48 years - I had many, many years of piano lessons. I have also studied composition and theory.

I have always wanted to play guitar. One of my son's extra guitars is here, along with an amp.

I've been thinking about picking it up to see what I could accomplish. Do you think it guitar lessons would facilitate my progress?

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I hope I don't make this a life story post.

My grandparents started me off with piano lessons when I was 4, but it was something I just couldn't get into. I always wanted to play the drums, so at age 8 they bought me my first drum kit. I was a natural, and drums have been my first musical love ever since. About 5 years later I got into playing guitar. It was a bit more difficult to pick up, but then again, 60's rock music wasn't that difficult to play either. It wasn't until the early 70's, when I first heard and studied up on synthesizers, that I got back into keys. Because I could make such unusual (back then) sounds, playing keys eventually became a close second to drumming.

Skipping all my boring band stories of the past decades, I now just play and record for my own pleasure. However, I still take my music seriously, if only to enjoy what I've learned through the years (and I'm still learning).

What works best for me now is to compile a group of songs that I want to record. That way, I can allot as much time as needed to each individual instrument without having to instantly switch from drums to guitar to keys to bass. I can spend days, or even weeks getting the drum tracks to my liking before moving on the next instrument. And the same with the rest.

To me, being able to focus on one instrument at a time for as long as needed is important, since each instrument has it's own vibe, requiring a different state of mind to play as proficiently as possible.

But that's just me.

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Quote Originally Posted by Buuzer View Post
What works best for me now is to compile a group of songs that I want to record. That way, I can allot as much time as needed to each individual instrument without having to instantly switch from drums to guitar to keys to bass. I can spend days, or even weeks getting the drum tracks to my liking before moving on the next instrument. And the same with the rest.

To me, being able to focus on one instrument at a time for as long as needed is important, since each instrument has it's own vibe, requiring a different state of mind to play as proficiently as possible.
My experience also. When I'm focussed on piano, the guitar slips. When I'm focussed on guitar, the piano slips. This is fine for recording at home but makes me hesitant to play out on two instruments.
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Quote Originally Posted by keybdwizrd

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Do you think it guitar lessons would facilitate my progress?

 

To begin, I'd suggest taking the guitar out of its case and making sure it's at least as accessible as your keys. Lessons may be good, but you'll need a very bright teacher to adapt to your situation without wasting your time.
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The guitar is still my main instrument I think, even though I've been trying to move to piano and keys for some 5 years now. I took some piano lessons early on but after my first son was born it became a bit hard to continue.

I often just pick up an unplugged electric guitar to noodle around in the evening after the kids have gone to bed and the house is quiet... so even though I do like keys and particularly piano best (and wanted to play piano since I was a small child), guitar still feels more at home.

And this is my main squeeze... a Franken-Tele... fantastic neck, fantastic sound.

telec-1.jpg

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I use a light-heavy set (.010-.052). From Webstrings, the cheap place to buy strings smile.gif I have 7 electrics, 2 acoustics and 2 bass guitars, so I buy strings in bulk.

In fact, I just changed strings on that guitar last night and finally came around to repositioning the bridge pickup a little bit (it's screwed to the body so it's a bit harder to adjust...)

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